Golf Popularity... Issue?!

[PedronNiall]

37 minutes ago, SurfDuffer said:

I've always been the 5:30-dark:30 guy during the week and after 3 on the weekends.  That strategy is no longer what it used to be.

Prior to 2020 twilight rates were magnificent and there were always slots to be had pretty much anywhere.  How quickly the turn tables.

[Chunkitgood]

Prior to Covid a lot of things that were once commonplace were becoming scarce, luxuries, or unobtainable, because the sad truth is, all misleading statistics to the contrary, succeeding generations are being impoverished relative to their parents.

 

Covid gave a boost to golf, but the secular trend towards relative poverty has only quickened.

 

Even in the (relatively) good old days when I grew up, you had to have achieved a certain amount professionally to have the time and resources to play golf much, because it is an expensive hobby.

 

Now there are a lot of people playing who just cannot really afford it.  In those terms golf becomes not a hobby but a vice.

 

[jayslaysongolf]

The biggest difference with courses is when covid hit golf was one the few things people could do.

 

A lot courses are over charging and not realistic since golf is in decline since covid.

 

Somecourses are empty but they overcharge or are jerks to golfers.  The courses who are great and reasonable are the ones packed.

[SurfDuffer]

16 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Prior to 2020 twilight rates were magnificent and there were always slots to be had pretty much anywhere.  How quickly the turn tables.

I'm a member at a private club so rates aren't a factor.  I just want to be able to walk a relatively quiet course late in the day like I used to before the pandemic.

[Obee]

On 3/8/2024 at 1:28 PM, Locked said:

There is a solution here that would not only be unbelievably awesome but would help with the problem.  

 

Night Golf!... Every single muni should light 9 holes and allow boozy night time golf with buddies.  There's a lot of people who would rather play a 6pm round but can't so go off early clogging things up.  There are a lot of guys that wouldn't play on a saturday if they knew they were going out with their buddies for 9 holes at 9pm.  

 

Why won't the golf gods allow this?  There are 10000 reasons this makes sense and very few that it doesn't.  

Zoning? No one wants to live near a night-lighted course? How many rounds a year can be played after the sun goes down in areas where it gets cold? How many areas of the country would actually benefit form it? In the north (where it's cold all year), the courses are already open late during the playing season because the sun goes down so late. In the late fall, winter, and early spring, you can't play anyway (or if you can play during the day, it's too cold at night).

"Night Golf" has been thought about forever. There are myriad reasons why it's not "a thing." Probably never will be except in very limited locales.

I'm with you, though. Would love for there to be some night golf in SoCal.

[alarson]

Some good replies and some of the same ole read part of a post and hammer the keyboard type responses.

 

Clarification:  We have (2) private CCs, (1) nice muni, (2) public and (1) par 3 course within a 15 min drive from my house.  I was a member of one of the CCs for several years.  As many said, pre-covid the course was empty and golf was great.  Post-covid even the private club was packed.  It got to the point where paying a premium for golf without the premium benefits didn't make sense anymore, so we cancelled our membership.

The issue I was attempting to point out is that our nicer muni course has LOWERED prices over the last 10 years.  Once $70+ for a round is now $45 and often can be lower with timing.  This $45 is in line with the other (2) public and (1) par 3 course from a cost perspective, despite the muni being FAR FAR nicer. 

As a muni, they don't NEED to make money like a privately owned course (obviously its tax funded).  You should expect to pay a fair price to play.  A fair price for that course would be higher than the $45 a round cost.  And with costs being that low, people flood the course.  I suggested the nicer muni raise their rate to a fair cost (maybe the $70 per round it used to be).  For the "driving me out of the game" crowd, there is still the other (2) public courses, and (1) par 3 that would remain budget friendly.  To take that a step further... I know the owners of one of the other public courses.  They are priced to be playable, but also pay the bills.  The muni being underpriced hurts their busniess.

 

As a still working person, I am not able to play mid-afternoon.  I have heard a lot of frustration from the older crowd that worked their whole life for this very moment... not going to work and golfing mid afternoon.  Those are the guys / gals that are really frustrated with the young people golfing mid day crowd (at least around here).

 

 

[RayGorman]

A course only has a finite number of spots to fill. At a 10 minute interval that's 24 an hour. I'm sure there are outliers, but no matter what the cost, it will be likely be full in any well populated area. Courses know that, and will normally price it at what the market can bear. Muni's are usually less because they will get some subsidies from whatever State, County, or Town they are serving. Even if you could 'rock around in 3 hours', that won't change how many people they can put out there. There are only so many tee times in an hour. 

The Covid thing certainly didn't make much of a difference around here in the NYC/LI area. What it did do is affect the single who can't plan 7 days out to make a time. Courses wouldn't LET you rock up as a single, it must be done online in advance. But groups would book out all the times a week ahead and invariably, someone in the group wouldn't show up and leave spots available, and they STILL wouldn't let you walk on to fill those spots. When you could see from the parking lot that there were 2's and 3's going off. "Those are the rules, sorry". Thankfully, that has sort of eased off at most courses, but you still get "Sorry, the tee sheet is full", because folks don't bother to cancel the one or two guys that don't show. So they can't tell you; "it will be about 20-30 minutes". They still have a full sheet and they don't know when a spot is open, so you have to wait around until a random opening pops up. 

[Wolfhammer]

1 hour ago, alarson said:

Some good replies and some of the same ole read part of a post and hammer the keyboard type responses.

 

Clarification:  We have (2) private CCs, (1) nice muni, (2) public and (1) par 3 course within a 15 min drive from my house.  I was a member of one of the CCs for several years.  As many said, pre-covid the course was empty and golf was great.  Post-covid even the private club was packed.  It got to the point where paying a premium for golf without the premium benefits didn't make sense anymore, so we cancelled our membership.

The issue I was attempting to point out is that our nicer muni course has LOWERED prices over the last 10 years.  Once $70+ for a round is now $45 and often can be lower with timing.  This $45 is in line with the other (2) public and (1) par 3 course from a cost perspective, despite the muni being FAR FAR nicer. 

As a muni, they don't NEED to make money like a privately owned course (obviously its tax funded).  You should expect to pay a fair price to play.  A fair price for that course would be higher than the $45 a round cost.  And with costs being that low, people flood the course.  I suggested the nicer muni raise their rate to a fair cost (maybe the $70 per round it used to be).  For the "driving me out of the game" crowd, there is still the other (2) public courses, and (1) par 3 that would remain budget friendly.  To take that a step further... I know the owners of one of the other public courses.  They are priced to be playable, but also pay the bills.  The muni being underpriced hurts their busniess.

 

As a still working person, I am not able to play mid-afternoon.  I have heard a lot of frustration from the older crowd that worked their whole life for this very moment... not going to work and golfing mid afternoon.  Those are the guys / gals that are really frustrated with the young people golfing mid day crowd (at least around here).

 

 

 

It still sounds like you're advocating raising prices to edge out young daytime golfers so . . . retirees can play on an emptier course or something? I dunno man. Seems like a really bad take.

[alarson]

6 minutes ago, Wolfhammer said:

 

It still sounds like you're advocating raising prices to edge out young daytime golfers so . . . retirees can play on an emptier course or something? I dunno man. Seems like a really bad take.

 

I'm not sure what my take is.  I just miss the days of golfing whenever I want and as fast as I want.  I'm certainly not entitled anymore than the next guy, but it sure sucks following groups of slow inexperienced people.

I think everyone on here would agree 6 hr rounds with packed courses are bad.  Initial post was based on people clamoring for golf popularity to increase.  I think its quite popular already and wouldn't mind it slowing down a bit.  I guess that is my take.

 

I don't know what the fix or answer is.

 

[Soloman1]

 munis do need to make money. government owned courses should never undercut privately owned, public access courses.

 

a decade+ ago, municipal golf courses were the #1 revenue generator for other parks and recreation activities for cities or counties. they started farming out contracts to operate them, and sure enough, many are losing money now. that means it costs the taxpayers money every year. once golf management companies get their hooks into a golf course, things go to hell pretty quick. they’re like private equity, sucking the life and cash out of a place for short term return.

 

offering a reasonably-priced service to the taxpayers who paid for it is not in the business plan.

 

the pendulum always swings, but the pickup always lags.

 

everything has to be on a f*@&$ing app now. dynamic pricing, local course mafia with special treatment on times, etc.

 

in the good old days, municipal courses had a simple system for a block of times in the morning. show up, get in line to put your name(s) on the list or ball in a rack, eat breakfast, or go hit some balls, putt, and you’re up. no app.

Edited March 11 by Soloman1

[shankasaurus rex]

23 minutes ago, alarson said:

 

I'm not sure what my take is.  I just miss the days of golfing whenever I want and as fast as I want.  I'm certainly not entitled anymore than the next guy, but it sure sucks following groups of slow inexperienced people.

I think everyone on here would agree 6 hr rounds with packed courses are bad.  Initial post was based on people clamoring for golf popularity to increase.  I think its quite popular already and wouldn't mind it slowing down a bit.  I guess that is my take.

 

I don't know what the fix or answer is.

 

Just to be clear, wanting to be able to do whatever you want whenever you want without having to consider others is practically the definition of entitlement.

 

If you want to slow the growth of golf down, feel free to take up pickleball.

[shankasaurus rex]

2 hours ago, Obee said:

Zoning? No one wants to live near a night-lighted course? How many rounds a year can be played after the sun goes down in areas where it gets cold? How many areas of the country would actually benefit form it? In the north (where it's cold all year), the courses are already open late during the playing season because the sun goes down so late. In the late fall, winter, and early spring, you can't play anyway (or if you can play during the day, it's too cold at night).

"Night Golf" has been thought about forever. There are myriad reasons why it's not "a thing." Probably never will be except in very limited locales.

I'm with you, though. Would love for there to be some night golf in SoCal.

Good points, but, beyond that, that kind of lighting would be prohibitively expensive at most courses for the limited amount of revenue it would bring in.

[dropkicked]

54 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 munis do need to make money. government owned courses should never undercut privately owned, public access courses.

 

a decade+ ago, municipal golf courses were the #1 revenue generator for other parks and recreation activities for cities or counties. they started farming out contracts to operate them, and sure enough, many are losing money now. that means it costs the taxpayers money every year. once golf management companies get their hooks into a golf course, things go to hell pretty quick. they’re like private equity, sucking the life and cash out of a place for short term return.

 

offering a reasonably-priced service to the taxpayers who paid for it is not in the business plan.

 

the pendulum always swings, but the pickup always lags.

 

everything has to be on a f*@&$ing app now. dynamic pricing, local course mafia with special treatment on times, etc.

 

in the good old days, municipal courses had a simple system for a block of times in the morning. show up, get in line to put your name(s) on the list or ball in a rack, eat breakfast, or go hit some balls, putt, and you’re up. no app.

Outside of retiree's, who has the time in life to do this?

I would imagine the ability to book times well in advance greatly benefits the course(s).

[Soloman1]

14 minutes ago, dropkicked said:

Outside of retiree's, who has the time in life to do this?

I would imagine the ability to book times well in advance greatly benefits the course(s).

 

 

14 minutes ago, dropkicked said:

in the good old days, municipal courses had a simple system for a block of times in the morning.

 

it would be like the first hour of times, so you’d be off within that time. and the course knew everyone was there for those times. no late shows, no shows, etc.

 

i know people who can get out of bed a little early to do something.

[ae1985]

2 hours ago, alarson said:

 I have heard a lot of frustration from the older crowd that worked their whole life for this very moment... not going to work and golfing mid afternoon.  Those are the guys / gals that are really frustrated with the young people golfing mid day crowd (at least around here).

 

To that I say tough sh*t. You lived your entire life working, not me.

[GHIN n Juice]

OP, please move to Iowa.  I like the way things are at Nebraska courses.  And if you can’t just make a tee time like the rest of us, maybe you’re the problem. 🤷‍♂️

[hanginnwangin]

Eat balls.

[goalie]

4 hours ago, alarson said:

 

As a still working person, I am not able to play mid-afternoon.  I have heard a lot of frustration from the older crowd that worked their whole life for this very moment... not going to work and golfing mid afternoon.  Those are the guys / gals that are really frustrated with the young people golfing mid day crowd (at least around here).

 

 

Yeah, those people need to get over themselves.  Acting like other people shouldn't golf so you can is peak selfishness.  

[SurfDuffer]

4 hours ago, RayGorman said:

A course only has a finite number of spots to fill. At a 10 minute interval that's 24 an hour. I'm sure there are outliers, but no matter what the cost, it will be likely be full in any well populated area. Courses know that, and will normally price it at what the market can bear. Muni's are usually less because they will get some subsidies from whatever State, County, or Town they are serving. Even if you could 'rock around in 3 hours', that won't change how many people they can put out there. There are only so many tee times in an hour. 

The Covid thing certainly didn't make much of a difference around here in the NYC/LI area. What it did do is affect the single who can't plan 7 days out to make a time. Courses wouldn't LET you rock up as a single, it must be done online in advance. But groups would book out all the times a week ahead and invariably, someone in the group wouldn't show up and leave spots available, and they STILL wouldn't let you walk on to fill those spots. When you could see from the parking lot that there were 2's and 3's going off. "Those are the rules, sorry". Thankfully, that has sort of eased off at most courses, but you still get "Sorry, the tee sheet is full", because folks don't bother to cancel the one or two guys that don't show. So they can't tell you; "it will be about 20-30 minutes". They still have a full sheet and they don't know when a spot is open, so you have to wait around until a random opening pops up. 

 

 

3 hours ago, alarson said:

 

I'm not sure what my take is.  I just miss the days of golfing whenever I want and as fast as I want.  I'm certainly not entitled anymore than the next guy, but it sure sucks following groups of slow inexperienced people.

I think everyone on here would agree 6 hr rounds with packed courses are bad.  Initial post was based on people clamoring for golf popularity to increase.  I think its quite popular already and wouldn't mind it slowing down a bit.  I guess that is my take.

 

I don't know what the fix or answer is.

 

 

These two post are coming from where I'm at.  The past two seasons I couldn't tell you how many times I drove through the parking lot after work of the course where I'm a member and never even bothered to stop and get out because the parking lot was packed and it was obvious that the tee was backed up.  Pre-covid I'd go to the course after work and the parking lot would be half empty and the tee wide open.  I'd say hi to the starter and go walk or at most wait for one group to tee off.

[bcflyguy1]

On 3/8/2024 at 10:03 AM, alarson said:

I guess I miss the days of rolling into one of our courses (private CC or public course) without a tee time and playing a 3 hr round.

Those "good old days" were never sustainable.

[toddbournes]

2 hours ago, bcflyguy1 said:

Those "good old days" were never sustainable.

They were sustained for decades actually. From before I was alive then thru the 80s 90s and most of the 2000s this is what golf looked like. This is was the, I guess, “elitist” time in golf when you were expected to if not be decent at golf, at least respect the pace of play and general etiquette of golf and I for one miss the hell out of it. I’m glad people are taking up the game.  But respect pace of play. 5 hour + rounds are ridiculous. Go to the range. Learn how to hit the ball. The basics of golf. Be respectful. It’s not that hard.  

Edited March 11 by toddbournes

[dropkicked]

5 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

 

 

it would be like the first hour of times, so you’d be off within that time. and the course knew everyone was there for those times. no late shows, no shows, etc.

 

i know people who can get out of bed a little early to do something.

That's funny because I love fishing more than golf. 🤣

I'm not sure that process would work well for those of us who have limited free time.. having a scheduled tee-time allows for some piece of mind.

[jholz]

On 3/8/2024 at 2:26 PM, ChipNRun said:

 

Please explain to me why the LOT of younger golfers filling the courses are not regular golfers? Are you somehow more entitled than they are to play?

 

As for crowding, does your city (not mentioned) have fewer than its fair share of NE courses? Here is a sampling grid of Midwest golfdom.

 

Overall, NE has the lowest persons per course ratio of the three states, as per population figures of 2022.

 

 

If you can go out and play courses mid-afternoon, possibly you should join a private club. Are all the private clubs slammed also?

 

If area golf is overrun, why not buy a quarter section (160 acres of land) north of town and build another course? I will come up and design it for you for a modest fee. 

 

Good gravy dude. You know the acreage of a quarter section?

 

You would be happily accepted into any south central Kansas farming community.

 

Where I live currently, people view 15 acres as an arable plot. Hobby farm.

[Locked]

This thread is quite emotional.... I suggest late night golf and people have to get all logical and bum me out.  (FWIW the numbers pencil nicely for night golf in a lot of geographies like socal and arizona and florida... people act like lighting 9 holes is super expensive.  Depending on the track and whether or not you have parallel fairways it can be very palatable like the course adjacent to Top Golf in el segundo that they lit)

 

Anyways... my course still doesn't have tee times, can normally walk right on, and worst case wait is like 45 minutes so these types of courses do still exist.  

[Binson]

Oh no, youtube clickbait thumbnail titles have made their way to forum titles...

 

[southpaw72]

#shrinkthegame

[ChipNRun]

3 hours ago, jholz said:

Good gravy dude. You know the acreage of a quarter section?

 

You would be happily accepted into any south central Kansas farming community.

 

My brothers and I inherited about 300 acres of agricultural land (crop and woodland) from my mother. The six of us rolled it into an LLC, and operated it for about five years, and then sold it in 2020. All of us are senior citizens now, and none of the nieces and nephews had any desire to engage in farming. So, cashing out was the way to go.

 

A couple of us have some farm related skills. My one brother is retired from the Missouri Department of Natural Resources, where he ran the soil survey for several years. Another brother has kept in touch with our cousins who actually farmed the land, and he bought a truck rig and now hauls grain at harvest time down in the area.

 

I caddied for a long time in grade school and high school, so from a turf standpoint I appreciate what it takes to grow things.

 

And, four of the six would often go deer hunting on the land. (I live across the river in IL, and although I owned some land the hunting license was waaay too co$tly for an out of stater.)

 

BTW, do you have a quarter-section that needs some tees and greens? 😉

[Jgolfer99]

Golf in many cases has been negatively affected (pace of play, etiquette, respect for course and fellow players) by the same forces that have led to the general decline of modern American values, morals and ethics.  When the social fabric begins to deteriorate that trickles down to every segment of society including eventually to the world of golf.  Just my two cents.

[jjtour]

On 3/9/2024 at 5:02 AM, Soloman1 said:

golf in nebraska is not the same as the rest of the world.

these are public golf course prices. come on down and play 2-3 times per week.

you can enjoy a $20 cheeseburger after the round. $22 with tax + tip.

or get on the waiting list to cough up some real money for a private club.

🙂

 

 

 

 

 

Phoenix has gotten insane in the winters now. Was in town for a week in February, played Superstition Springs one of the rounds. Think I paid $150, course was absolutely slammed, 5 hour round and that course is not worth half that price, condition wise. Never again. I'm sure they are crushing it financially speaking, I dont know what the situation is at some of the other courses you listed above but it's getting crazy in the valley. Might have to start looking for other places to go in the winter if rates continue to climb like they are. Which I know is what OP is arguing for but I dont see how that's good for anyone in golf except for the owners of the courses.

[jholz]

12 hours ago, ChipNRun said:

 

My brothers and I inherited about 300 acres of agricultural land (crop and woodland) from my mother. The six of us rolled it into an LLC, and operated it for about five years, and then sold it in 2020. All of us are senior citizens now, and none of the nieces and nephews had any desire to engage in farming. So, cashing out was the way to go.

 

A couple of us have some farm related skills. My one brother is retired from the Missouri Department of Natural Resources, where he ran the soil survey for several years. Another brother has kept in touch with our cousins who actually farmed the land, and he bought a truck rig and now hauls grain at harvest time down in the area.

 

I caddied for a long time in grade school and high school, so from a turf standpoint I appreciate what it takes to grow things.

 

And, four of the six would often go deer hunting on the land. (I live across the river in IL, and although I owned some land the hunting license was waaay too co$tly for an out of stater.)

 

BTW, do you have a quarter-section that needs some tees and greens? 😉

 

Aw man, if you'd caught me three months ago...maybe. 

 

But, we just sold off our last section in the OK panhandle. It was split between 15 or so offspring. We got mineral rights payments for natural gas and leased the rest to a couple of brothers who grow weeds for the government - soil retention. It did provide a nice monthly income for my mom. 

 

But, it got to the point where we needed a big sum of money to do something important, and we bit the bullet and sold it. That's typically how these things go. 

 

I've still got one great-uncle farming a separated plot of about 1/3 of a section in south central Kansas - but dude works part time at the grocery store to make it work financially. Growing mainly milo and a bit of winter wheat.

 

My now deceased uncle on the other side of the family managed a barley farm in North Eastern CO. He was constantly trying to get Coors to accept their produce (if the moisture level is too high sorry!)... it was a tough life, but guy did build his own bass pond and then obsessed about migrant farm workers stealing his bass. Dude was out there with a shotgun regularly. 

 

And yeah, I'm one generation removed from the farm. I got all kind of contacts for bird hunting, but only know the basics of actual crop production. 

 

From what I can tell concerning eastern Colorado, South Central Kansas, and the OK panhandle - it's a volume business. 

 

If you don't have 3-5 sections of land under cultivation, if you didn't partner with Monsanto (or equivalent) on the seed, fertilizer, and pesticides, then good luck...

 

All I know, is that the folks that did it right seemed to make some money. I have yet to see a successful farmer in eastern Colorado that hasn't devoted a quarter section to building a landing strip. Gotta put up a new quasit hut to house the Cessna, of course. 

 

But, they can't cover the cost of a new $500k combine harvester?  

 

From what I can tell, the economics of farming have changed drastically since my mother and father's time.