Pace of play question

[mc2]

Hi,

 

Played two days in a row in club champs this past weekend (final two days of a four day championship), and on the first day our group of 4, had a group of 3 in front of us, and a group of 3 behind.

 

The group in front were not in the club champs and were playing stableford off the forward tee and were absolutely flying, we never got within a couple of holes of them. 

 

We were playing at a normal pace, not wasting any time at all, but being stroke play off the tips, some slow holes are expected. 
 

We have a timer on our scoring app at our course, and after 9 holes we were 8 minutes ahead of expected time, and we finished the round in just under 4 hours.

 

At the 10th hole we crossed paths with the group of 3 behind us, and we were verbally abused (quite badly) for being too slow and not keeping up to the group in front, and that we weren't putting in any effort at all to move quickly (not true). 
 

We tried to explain that we had a fast group of 3 in front, and that being that they were also a group of 3, would inevitably be waiting on us sometimes, and that we were actually on time according to the app. But this just set the worst angriest guy off even more.

 

To be clear, from what I noticed, they weren't even waiting on us that often during those 9 holes, honestly maybe only 5 shots total. Their biggest issue seemed to be that we weren't keeping up with the group in front of us. 
 

One of my playing partners was in contention for the club champs and had a great score on the front 9. After this interaction it ruined his round and he blew out his score and his contention. 
 

There happened to be a marshall right near us when this happened, we told him what happened, and he said the member cannot speak to us like that and would be reported, however he said we still needed to try and catch up to the group ahead.

 

Behind the angry group of 3, was another group of 4, and they were at least 1 hole behind the angry group at all times, ie. since they were a group of 3, they were moving more quickly than the group of 4 behind them, which means they are going to catch up to a group of 4 in front right?
 

Are we under any obligation to keep

up with the fast group of 3 in this scenario?

 

We played as the same playing group the next day, and at the exact same point in the round (10th hole) we were 9 minutes ahead almost carbon copy of the day before, and the groups of 4 in front and behind us, were perfectly spaced, nobody was really ever waiting on any other group and we also finished in just under 4 hours again. 

Cheers

[Mr. Bean]

In any competition it is not a wise solution from the Committee to put a larger group in front as what you described may and most likely will happen.

 

But to your question. If you were on schedule you were not obliged to keep up with the threesome, especially as they were not part of your competition. A threesome will normally play faster than a foursome, same goes with a twosome playing faster than a threesome. In all competitions I have been part of a twosome will always have had to wait for the groups in front and threesome following the twosome had always fallen behind from them. That is only normal and any experienced referee or tournament director knows and understands that. I am surprised the marshall told you to keep up with a threesome.

Edited April 21 by Mr. Bean

[Shilgy]

While I agree with most of your post there is an issue with the group two groups behind you.   If you have four and the group behind you has three the three is only playing as quickly as your group.  Why would you expect the foursome behind them to be lagging?  All they are really doing is keeping up with your four…not the three.

[mc2]

3 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

In any competition it is not a wise solution from the Committee to put a larger group in front as what you described may and most likely will happen.

 

But to your question. If you were on schedule you were not obliged to keep up with the threesome, especially as they were not part of your competition.

Thank you.

 

The reason there were threesomes out there, was that it was the second weekend of club champs and there were already a lot of people out of contention, and then the weather took a turn late the day before and we were greeted with 40-50km winds and showers, so a lot of people pulled out of their tee times at the last minute

 

Even with that weather and none of our group used to playing stroke from the tips, we thought we did really well to stay on time 

[mc2]

4 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

While I agree with most of your post there is an issue with the group two groups behind you.   If you have four and the group behind you has three the three is only playing as quickly as your group.  Why would you expect the foursome behind them to be lagging?  All they are really doing is keeping up with your four…not the three.

Yes that true good point. I was thinking that because the angry group behind us were so far ahead of the 4 behind them, that the angry group must have been playing faster than the pace of the course, which would be expected as they were a 3some. 

[Mr. Bean]

2 minutes ago, mc2 said:

Thank you.

 

The reason there were threesomes out there, was that it was the second weekend of club champs and there were already a lot of people out of contention, and then the weather took a turn late the day before and we were greeted with 40-50km winds and showers, so a lot of people pulled out of their tee times at the last minute

 

 

That is understandable under the circumstances. If only feasible the Committee could have switched your group with the threesome or alternatively take one person from your group into the threesome. That should have made things more smooth.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, mc2 said:

The group in front were not in the club champs and were playing stableford off the forward tee and were absolutely flying, we never got within a couple of holes of them

 

Was the 3-some behind you in the Club Championship ? Or just the 4 players in your group ?

 

If the former, that's a surprising attitude from them. If the latter I would've hoped the starter (or somebody) would've explained to that 3-some before they teed off what was going on in front of them.

 

Nevertheless, if you're on time, there's no reason for their attitude and, if they are experienced players, they would've known that THEY, and therefore YOU, were "on time" too.

Edited April 21 by nsxguy

[mc2]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Was the 3-some behind you in the Club Championship ? Or just the 4 players in your group ?

 

If the former, that's a surprising attitude from them. I fhte latter I would've hoped the starter (or somebody) would've explained to that 3-some before they teed off what was going on in front of them.

 

Nevertheless, if you're on time, there's no reason for their attitude and, if they are experienced players, they would've known that THEY, and therefore YOU, were "on time" too.

Yes group behind us was in the club championship as well. 
 

They are experienced players (seniors, been playing for a long time) in the 8-14 handicap range. They know what they are doing! 
 

We were all having a great day, playing as fast as we could, and were a bit shocked by the interaction

[Mr. Bean]

21 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Nevertheless, if you're on time, there's no reason for their attitude and, if they are experienced players, they would've known that THEY, and therefore YOU, were "on time" too.

 

Not quite.

 

Let us take three groups A, B and C. A = 3, B = 4, C = 3 players. Now, A is faster than B and is, say 2 holes ahead. C is faster than B and has to wait for B. In that situation B should invite C to play through, unless B and C are in the same competition, then it is not customary to switch the order of groups by playing through unless there are good reasons for that.

 

In the OP case all groups behind their group were in the same competition. If there was plenty of space in front of the foursome they could have asked the threesome to play through as they were the 1st group of that competition and there was a threesome in front of them.

 

Nevertheless, the threesome could have kindly asked if they could play through but that is another story...

 

Edited April 21 by Mr. Bean

[nsxguy]

19 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Not quite.

 

Let us take three groups A, B and C. A = 3, B = 4, C = 3 players. Now, A is faster than B and is, say 2 holes ahead. C is faster than B and has to wait for B. In that situation B should invite C to play through, unless B and C are in the same competition, then it is not customary to switch the order of groups by playing through unless there are good reasons for that.

 

In the OP case all groups behind their group were in the same competition. If there was plenty of space in front of the foursome they could have asked the threesome to play through as they were the 1st group of that competition and there was a threesome in front of them.

 

Nevertheless, the threesome could have kindly asked if they could play through but that is another story...

 

 

I left out the "let 'em play through" part on purpose but re-reading it, if the group following the upset seniors was actually a hole behind and if the 3 seniors were ready to go, I'd have just said to them "Wanna play through ? Be my guest".

 

Having said that, it still sounds like a rather rude attitude from the SAME club/championship, especially if they're on time.

Edited April 22 by nsxguy

[ArtMBgolf]

The 3 SRs from the SR tees will be fast compared to 4 from the tips.   
 
Since you were on time, they should have understood. 
 
If close enough to argue about it, you should let them through, then you can relax some on the 
back 9.   If if they were jerks, it's still better for you to let them through.    

Edited April 23 by ArtMBgolf
spelling

[Augster]

You should have offered them to play through once the group ahead lost you guys. 
 

If I’m waiting on every shot as a 3-some for your 4-some, I’ll be demanding you let us through after you guys clearly didn’t take the hint. 
 

It’s really not complicated. Time par is only a suggestion and is the SLOWEST you are allowed to play without penalty. So “playing faster than the time par” just means you’re playing normal. Slow even. But not slow enough for a penalty. 
 

Rule 5.6b: Players are encouraged to allow faster groups to play through.

 

Pretty simple. 

[mc2]

More than happy to let groups through, and I always do outside of competition.

 

However there is some kind of unspoken law around these parts that you can't play through in competition rounds. I'm not sure if it's an actual rule but nobody does it. 

 

I asked the marshall if we could let them through and he just said "I don't think so" and we left it at that.

 

These guys weren't even acting impatient, we had no hint that they were upset until they abused us. Usually when a group wants to play through it's very obvious, very quickly.

 

I just checked the scores, the main aggressor in the group shot 39 over that day off a 14 handicap 🙈

[naval2006]

The Committee sets up the tee times in twosomes, threesomes or foursomes. Depending on the format players are informed and in case there is one player missing from a group, that group of players keeps the proper pace of the competition. Because if a threesome plays through a foursome they’ll most likely bump into another foursome later. 

The Committee must be very careful about this and, on the first tee, the starter has to inform threesomes about their special condition for the day. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, mc2 said:

However there is some kind of unspoken law around these parts that you can't play through in competition rounds. I'm not sure if it's an actual rule but nobody does it. 

 

 

That is an urban legend instead of a Rule but as I already wrote earlier playing through is done only in very special circumstances. I will describe some relevant things to elaborate.

 

First of all, excluding the 1st group of the comp all groups have to keep up with the group in front of them, that is, they have to be "in position". Once a group falls out of position it is the players' responsibility to pick up speed and get back into position. Referees help players to do that with any means they have got, such as helping the players to search for errant balls, or ultimately putting the group on clock. The latter will get the group moving, or in the extreme case, will be penalized enough to leave the course. This I have never seen nor heard having happened.

 

So it is the players' ultimate responsibility to stay in position and once they are out they must make every effort to get back in. Having a group to play through is not a solution unless a specific group is totally blocking the field due to lots of errant shots to be searched for or when one or more players have had to return to tee for any reason. In such a situation the Committee may let the next group to play through but this happens very seldom as, like I wrote, it is the players' responsibility to get back in position.

[Imp]

'or when one or more players have had to return to tee for any reason.'

 

Happened to me sunday. 186 par 3, sliced my ball slightly into the trees, off a cart path. Wide open under the trees and thought it should be found easily. Nope. As I was walking the course, I borrowed a cart, mentioend to the others to finish up on the green, went back to the tee, and the group behind just came up. Apologized, and put my shot 10 feet from the hole as the 3 in my group waved me up. Drove back, putted out, and was gone in no-time. There are some ways to be quick, and many ways to be slow. 

One of the guys in the group behind mentioned the local rule hitting 4 from fairway. I said, "can't do it on the green, that's where it's lost (as proven putting my ball 10 feet from the hole)". "Oh, yeah." 

Edited April 22 by Imp

[shankasaurus rex]

8 hours ago, mc2 said:

More than happy to let groups through, and I always do outside of competition.

 

However there is some kind of unspoken law around these parts that you can't play through in competition rounds. I'm not sure if it's an actual rule but nobody does it. 

 

I asked the marshall if we could let them through and he just said "I don't think so" and we left it at that.

 

These guys weren't even acting impatient, we had no hint that they were upset until they abused us. Usually when a group wants to play through it's very obvious, very quickly.

 

I just checked the scores, the main aggressor in the group shot 39 over that day off a 14 handicap 🙈

Ah, Fast Golf (tm) rears its ugly head again. Unfortunately for you, there's no logic that can appease illogical people, and with the marshal effectively saying no to letting them play through, you were stuck. From their standpoint, they just need to b**** that they're not finishing their round, such as it was, in record time. Their only goal is to play golf fast, and their expectation is that your only goal is to facilitate that.

 

Fortunately, Mr. Angry Pants blew up his round. Hopefully lessons will be learned and he can get his irrational anger in check; might help him improve his scores. Sorry this happened to you. 

[nsxguy]

8 hours ago, mc2 said:

I just checked the scores, the main aggressor in the group shot 39 over that day off a 14 handicap 🙈

 

 

 

7 hours ago, naval2006 said:

The Committee sets up the tee times in twosomes, threesomes or foursomes. Depending on the format players are informed and in case there is one player missing from a group, that group of players keeps the proper pace of the competition. Because if a threesome plays through a foursome they’ll most likely bump into another foursome later. 

The Committee must be very careful about this and, on the first tee, the starter has to inform threesomes about their special condition for the day. 

 

Exactly. Did I miss where a player from the group behind dropped out ? Or was it a 3-some to begin with ?

 

If the former, yes, that would've been appropriate.

 

If the latter, the Committee botched the pairings/order IMO. I would never put a 3-some out behind a 4-some and I don't care HOW slow the 4-some is thought to be.

 

It's even more egregious when the 4-some is playing the tips, with which they "never play" and the 3-some is playing further up - "senior" tees no less.

 

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Once a group falls out of position it is the players' responsibility to pick up speed and get back into position

 

[snip]

 

So it is the players' ultimate responsibility to stay in position

 

Surely there is guidance in place for a smaller group playing behind a larger one, no ?

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

Surely there is guidance in place for a smaller group playing behind a larger one, no ?

 

If there is, I have never seen any such guidance. Around here we go with common sense...

[naval2006]

When you organize a comp and players pick their tee time you often end up with incomplete lines. Say it’s Club Championship Qually, foursomes every ten minutes. If there is a threesome because they couldn’t complete the line or somebody in the foursome drops the day before, the starter will offer an earlier tee time so the threesome plays ahead. Most likely, they’ll refuse to change time for a number of reasons and they know they are a threesome in a foursome tournament day so they’ll take it easy and will not ask to play through or moan and whine about it.  At least that’s how tournaments are played every week in all the courses in my country. 
 

On regional tournaments or higher tee times are set by the committee so it’s unusual that a tee time be incomplete. In the rare occasion this happens, the same principle applies. 

[SNIPERBBB]

Hopefully the organizers have learned from this experience.

[Mr. Bean]

11 hours ago, naval2006 said:

When you organize a comp and players pick their tee time

 

Are players allowed to pick their own tee time?? Not around here, they are allotted and you get what you get. You may wish for an early or late time but that's it.

 

For the rest, we never change groups after tee times have been fixed unless both groups accept it and even that happens extremely seldom (and only on club level, not on national level). Any last minute change simply creates confusion and unnecessary work for the Tournament Director who is fully employd during the competition anyway.

 

On national level we always use groups of three. If after the 1st day it is known there will be missing players then possible twosomes will be put starting first. Once the tee times are again allotted any potential twosome will just have to live with it.

[TheDeanAbides]

On 4/22/2024 at 9:42 AM, mc2 said:

More than happy to let groups through, and I always do outside of competition.

 

However there is some kind of unspoken law around these parts that you can't play through in competition rounds. I'm not sure if it's an actual rule but nobody does it. 

 

I asked the marshall if we could let them through and he just said "I don't think so" and we left it at that.

 

These guys weren't even acting impatient, we had no hint that they were upset until they abused us. Usually when a group wants to play through it's very obvious, very quickly.

 

I just checked the scores, the main aggressor in the group shot 39 over that day off a 14 handicap 🙈

Sounds a lot like he was throwing his dummy and just transferring because of his bad round. An adult body does not ensure that an adult is occupying it. 

[naval2006]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

On national level we always use groups of three. If after the 1st day it is known there will be missing players then possible twosomes will be put starting first. Once the tee times are again allotted any potential twosome will just have to live with it.

Same here on regional and national levels. 
 

But the week before Saturday tournament clubs have online tee times for members. Usually you sign up with your buddies at 9:10 for example and that’s it.  When there are open spots the starter usually completes the times and there’s time to register until Friday evening. Depending on the course the field is complete by midweek or Thursday. 

[nsxguy]

4 hours ago, naval2006 said:

Same here on regional and national levels. 
 

But the week before Saturday tournament clubs have online tee times for members. Usually you sign up with your buddies at 9:10 for example and that’s it.  When there are open spots the starter usually completes the times and there’s time to register until Friday evening. Depending on the course the field is complete by midweek or Thursday. 

 

Similar here (NY, USA) at regional levels.

 

But at our (muni) club,we always played a team game and since teams were picked the morning of, everybody had to be there at the appointed time.

 

Usually 24-36 players, we always put an officer or committeeman out first so he could get a head start on the paperwork when he got in.

 

After that, we picked (played 4-man team game) numbers out of a hat.

 

Since a lot of guys had families & commitments on Sundays, we discouraged guys from asking to go out early.

 

Each player was given a single request per season to go out early. Most guys never asked. On occasion, if nobody else objected, a player could get his group out early a bit more often.

 

During our match play Club Championship, the matches always went out last.

[caniac6]

I’d just let them play through, and worry about the particulars later. Also, if that guy shot 39 over, and was still waiting, you guys were slow.

[mshills]

On 4/21/2024 at 5:18 PM, mc2 said:

One of my playing partners was in contention for the club champs and had a great score on the front 9. After this interaction it ruined his round and he blew out his score and his contention. 

This is messed up. Can totally see how this would throw someone off his game who’s on a heater. Mr. +39 is totally out of order. There’s no room for a confrontation on the course like that, particularly in a private club, and I’d be having a little 1:1 with that guy when the opportunity presented itself.