70% of speed from hands? Where does this idea come from?

[SNIPERBBB]

6 hours ago, Nels55 said:

It seems to me that most of the controversy in golf instruction / swing theory comes from the fact that feel is not real.  Many really good players feel that their arms do nothing and their hips or whatever drive the swing.  They teach this to others and it works for some which proves that they are right and everyone else is an idiot.  Especially those students who can't seem to get it...

Watching one of the Tiger Talk things thing other day with Korda and Rory and they were discussing how they hit different driver shots and he said it was funny that how they all described how they feel they hit the same shot differently and in reality they hit it the same way 

Edited May 28 by SNIPERBBB

[iacas]

I said quite awhile ago now that like 90% or something of the arguments here come down to feel vs. real. I searched for that post but couldn't quite find it. I have made a lot of posts with the words "feel" and "real" and "most" here. 😄 

 

I found one instance… maybe this is what I'm thinking of:

 

 

Quote

 

Feels are of essentially no use in a broader discussion involving multiple people and what golfers actually do in the golf swing. Nobody has the same feels, feels within yourself don't even remain the same forever… and everyone has a different history, etc.

 

I taught a student recently (and I have to do some of this myself) to feel like they palmar flex their TRAIL wrist on the backswing and super extend their lead wrist.

 

That's not what you actually do in a golf swing, but imagine how people would (rightfully) react if I came on here to talk about how golfers should "extend their lead wrist and palmar flex their trail wrist so much it was 30° arched." Everyone here would (correctly) point out that such a thing is nowhere near the normal ranges seen from good players.

 

For that student (and a bit so for me), that feel is very real. Feels are of extremely limited use when talking to a broad audience.

 

(That student also knows that we don't actually want to do that, and as he gets better at it, he'll want to back off that feel lest he start actually doing it.)

 

The majority of arguments that occur in "swing theory" type discussions seem to stem from people arguing about feels versus what actually occurs. It's a waste of time. Feels are how virtually every teacher teaches, because human beings are not robots with dials and switches, but conveying your own feels through words is almost entirely pointless. About the only time it matters is when it's clear that it's "your" feel only and that it seems to produce the results that it does right now.

 

Often I'll have a student say "that felt effortless" and you damn well know that moving a 7I 92 MPH requires effort, but you can't go online and say "expend no effort, because that's what Ernie Els swing looks like to me on video and I had a student say that once when he was breaking 80 for the first time, so… yeah! That!"

 

 

So… yeah.

 

Edited May 28 by iacas
Found one

[nikos74]

Awesome long drive videos!

[MonteScheinblum]

Proving your lack of understanding of anything again…..lol
 

While the second video is of a friend of mine and he is great,  the first video is from the channel of a guy who had to leave the golf industry because he got caught cheating people out of money….of a guy who has done nothing in long driving using a speed radar that reads 10-15 mph fast.

 

Thus proving my point. 
 

Quit while you’re behind and try and learn something.

[jonsnow]

44 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Proving your lack of understanding of anything again…..lol
 

While the second video is of a friend of mine and he is great,  the first video is from the channel of a guy who had to leave the golf industry because he got caught cheating people out of money….of a guy who has done nothing in long driving using a speed radar that reads 10-15 mph fast.

 

Thus proving my point. 
 

Quit while you’re behind and try and learn something.

[MonteScheinblum]

18 minutes ago, jonsnow said:

In all my years on the forum you’d think I’d learn my lesson and just ignore the people who want to spout antiquated ideas, argue incessantly with experts in 3D, instruction, playing golf, etc., and then troll and insult said experts with even greater nonsense.  
 

However, twice in 15 years I was able to turn someone away from the dark side and one of them I’d call a friend today.  
 

 Others have said this and I agree.  This forum is infinitely more educated than any driving range on earth, save a few at professional golf events.  Bad ideas and concepts have to be called out, because a layman showing up here cannot discern which peak of a Dunning Kruger graph someone is on at first glance.

[Valtiel]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Ensalada palabra 

 

4 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Starting on the first hole I was informed, “Wow that’s huge but my buddy from my club hits it a lot farther than that.”

Oh so you know Jimmy?
 

Quote

I walked over to my bag, got my driver’s license and put it up to him.

S*** you were Jimmy this whole time! 

 

Edited May 28 by Valtiel

[MonteScheinblum]

You know Jimmy…..that made me spit water when I clicked on the video.

Edited May 28 by MonteScheinblum

[nikos74]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Proving your lack of understanding of anything again…..lol
 

While the second video is of a friend of mine and he is great,  the first video is from the channel of a guy who had to leave the golf industry because he got caught cheating people out of money….of a guy who has done nothing in long driving using a speed radar that reads 10-15 mph fast.

 

Thus proving my point. 
 

Quit while you’re behind and try and learn something.

Sorry I thought you would like them......bring back memories of greatness when you won the championship in 93 and 94.  Have swing speeds gone considerably up since then as a trend?  If so why?

 

I have read of MSE being labeled "charlatans" in the adjacent sub-forum but I don't follow his channel to know either way.  I saw the 140mph SS label and to be honest I like that dudes swing, I think it's hilarious.

[MonteScheinblum]

8 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Sorry I thought you would like them......bring back memories of greatness when you won the championship in 93 and 94.  Have swing speeds gone considerably up since then as a trend?  If so why?

 

I have read of MSE being labeled "charlatans" in the adjacent sub-forum but I don't follow his channel to know either way.  I saw the 140mph SS label and to be honest I like that dudes swing, I think it's hilarious.

Swings speeds have gone up a little with better training and equipment, just like on the PGA tour, but not considerably.  The guys I competed against in the early 90’s were still being competitive even into their late 40’s with the young guns.

 

Distances have gone WAY up because of equipment, the ball and the grids.

 

When I won in 1992 I only hit it 329 when I was 25.

 

At 45 I hit a ball 429 at the WLDC.  Anyone think I was 100 yards longer at 45 than 25?

 

When I won I won by 22 yards over I believe 9 guys who made the long drive hall of fame.

 

It was into a 20-30 mph left to right cross wind with a fairway soaked by a hurricane that hit a week or 2 before.  The ball backed up 6“ and it was at sea level with a club head the size of a baby’s fist and a $20 shaft.

 

The 429 ball was down wind at altitude on a firm fairway with a state of the art shaft and large club head.

 

Id say if you were able to translate the same two swings onto the same grid with the same equipment, the 329 swing beats the 429 swing by 50+ yards.

 

 

 

[nikos74]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

In all my years on the forum you’d think I’d learn my lesson and just ignore the people who want to spout antiquated ideas, argue incessantly with experts in 3D, instruction, playing golf, etc., and then troll and insult said experts with even greater nonsense.  
 

However, twice in 15 years I was able to turn someone away from the dark side and one of them I’d call a friend today.  
 

 Others have said this and I agree.  This forum is infinitely more educated than any driving range on earth, save a few at professional golf events.  Bad ideas and concepts have to be called out, because a layman showing up here cannot discern which peak of a Dunning Kruger graph someone is on at first glance.

I am not here to troll.  Everyone has a different swing so "one size fits all" instruction is a bad idea IMO.  Most people don't want to overhaul their swing, they want to fix their current one.  Too many instructors try the first for some reason.

 

If i disagree with something I don't make it personal and start insulting,  I explain the reason and move on.  Some people have a bad temper and that is on them.

 

The OPS has either gone out of style or was never too popular to begin with.  I don't expect lots of people to sympathize with it.

[Shilgy]

3 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Proving your lack of understanding of anything again…..lol
 

While the second video is of a friend of mine and he is great,  the first video is from the channel of a guy who had to leave the golf industry because he got caught cheating people out of money….of a guy who has done nothing in long driving using a speed radar that reads 10-15 mph fast.

 

Thus proving my point. 
 

Quit while you’re behind and try and learn something.

Yeah…the word charlatan was created with Christo in mind.

[MonteScheinblum]

10 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Yeah…the word charlatan was created with Christo in mind.

Not Christo, the young guy at the beginning.

[Soloman1]

go ahead, tell ‘em what kind of driver you used, monte.

 

did it have turbulators?

 

you could make this a lot easier. hit a few balls in front of students, then tell them to just make the same sound.

 

that’s it. nothing more. a whole new direction in golf instruction.

 

the sound method.

 

haha.

Edited May 28 by Soloman1

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

I am not here to troll.  Everyone has a different swing so "one size fits all" instruction is a bad idea IMO.  Most people don't want to overhaul their swing, they want to fix their current one.  Too many instructors try the first for some reason.

 

If i disagree with something I don't make it personal and start insulting,  I explain the reason and move on.  Some people have a bad temper and that is on them.

 

The OPS has either gone out of style or was never too popular to begin with.  I don't expect lots of people to sympathize with it.

Monte isn’t pushing a one swing for all. He teaches what happens in a good golf swing and within the limits of the person he is teaching. It doesn’t mean the person is going to start swinging like a tour pro if have the distance of a long drive competitor, but when they start doing the correct sequencing and shifting pressure they get better and more efficient and thus longer for many.

 

Nobody is saying you can’t disagree and Monte and others have said they aren’t always right and welcome disagreement the issue is your disagreements are based on thing that have been proven wrong with actual data and measurements and the other issue is you keep doubling down on being wrong with more bad information and as pointed out your lack of understanding.

[SNIPERBBB]

44 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

go ahead, tell ‘em what kind of driver you used, monte.

 

did it have turbulators?

 

you could make this a lot easier. hit a few balls in front of students, then tell them to just make the same sound.

 

that’s it. nothing more. a whole new direction in golf instruction.

 

the sound method.

 

haha.

Think youve confused Monte with Jack Hamm. POOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

[iacas]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Bad ideas and concepts have to be called out, because a layman showing up here cannot discern which peak of a Dunning Kruger graph someone is on at first glance.

 

I see that as a big thing, too.

 

3 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Everyone has a different swing so "one size fits all" instruction is a bad idea IMO.

 

Nobody here is doing that.

 

3 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Too many instructors try the first for some reason.

 

I don't think you have any real data to support that.

 

3 hours ago, nikos74 said:

If i disagree with something I don't make it personal and start insulting,  I explain the reason and move on.  Some people have a bad temper and that is on them.

 

One of the problems some seem to have with you (that I have with you) is that you seem to "disagree" with measured facts. Things good golfers actually do…

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Think youve confused Monte with Jack Hamm. POOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

 

ever heard him hit a golf ball? sounds like a mike tyson k.o. punch in his prime.

 

that’s the new standard of golf instruction, not seeing it.

 

”just do whatever you need to do to make that sound, ok?”

[Zeph]

9 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

In all my years on the forum you’d think I’d learn my lesson and just ignore the people who want to spout antiquated ideas, argue incessantly with experts in 3D, instruction, playing golf, etc., and then troll and insult said experts with even greater nonsense.  
 

However, twice in 15 years I was able to turn someone away from the dark side and one of them I’d call a friend today.  
 

 Others have said this and I agree.  This forum is infinitely more educated than any driving range on earth, save a few at professional golf events.  Bad ideas and concepts have to be called out, because a layman showing up here cannot discern which peak of a Dunning Kruger graph someone is on at first glance.

Even if your efforts may be lost on some users, many others read the posts and are educated by them. Whenever bad or wrong information is pointed out and corrected it helps to avoid spreading the misinformation. I've seen many users that just won't quit arguing against measured facts, but the discussions often sprout informed posts by others. Additionally, anyone who reads the misinformation and belive they can argue against it will have to put it into their own words and try being a teacher. Teaching is the best way of learning in my experience.

[Hilts1969]

On 5/25/2024 at 1:33 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

This is where there is a disconnect.  False dichotomy of arms for speed and body for consistency and accuracy.

 

All of the people who accelerate their arms late are labeled as having an arm dominated swing and have both poor accuracy and distance.  The people who accelerate them on time are said to have a pivot driven swing.
 

People who like the pivot driven swing narrative don’t want listen to data and results.  
 

I have seen 100’s of 3D captures (likely over 1000) of golfers from pro level to beginner.  
 

Nearly all pro level golfers accelerate the arms on time.  I believe I only saw 1 who didn’t.

 

A huge number of golfers who felt armsy and were told they had an arm dominated swing, accelerated their arms late.   Range of motion ran out, body stall, arms take over.  That’s like 90+% of golfers.
 

These poor people have been told for decades to fire the body more and harder.

 

You can make a case it’s from thorax and/or hips having a poor acceleration deceleration curve, but these things work backwards and forward.

 

In any case, firing more and harder will make it worse.

 

Starting the downswing with the arms is IMPOSSIBLE unless you’re in outer space or you’re suspended in mid air.  I’m sorry to say anyone who says the swing should start from the ground up is trying to act like they know what they’re talking about, but it’s a meaningless and redundant statement.  
 

It’s like saying water is wet.

 

A cake tastes nasty with not enough sugar.  It will come out as sludge if it doesn’t have enough flour.

 

I don’t want a flour or sugar dominated cake.  I want one with the proper elements.
 

I could say, “Shift earlier, stay closed longer, start the arms sooner and release the wrist angles asap,” for every lesson without even seeing them swing and the only people who wouldn’t get better for sure if they just worked on that, are the ones with bad setups or horrible backswings…..and most of them would get better too.  Making setup and backswing competent just makes the quoted statement easier.  The only variable is which one of those 4 things can I choose to get them to do that will automatically make the  other 3 better without trying.  Thats where the art is.

 

You know how I know this?

 

Pressure trace, wrist graph and LM numbers get better when even 1 of the things in the quoted passage happen……100% of the time.  Not 99.9….100

 

That’s over 20,000 lessons worth.

 

From that I'm getting that a pro golfer is using passive arms and gets all his speed from his pivot thus reinforcing my keep the arms up mantra.

 

I even managed a 140 yd 7 iron the other day. If there wasn't a bunker left of the green I may have got it up and down for a par. 

[CasualLie]

22 hours ago, Nels55 said:

It seems to me that most of the controversy in golf instruction / swing theory comes from the fact that feel is not real.  Many really good players feel that their arms do nothing and their hips or whatever drive the swing.  They teach this to others and it works for some which proves that they are right and everyone else is an idiot.  Especially those students who can't seem to get it...

 

That and 2D snapshots of literally a few ms in time and telling people you have to get to X position.

[Socrates]

23 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

When I first came to this forum over 15 years ago before I had any aspirations to teach golf, I had been the longest hitter in the world and had played golf at the highest levels and had chances at a tour card a few times.

 

I quickly learned that my knowledge of the swing and the understanding of the physics of impact was at a level far below that of a novice.  I obviously had a high level practical understanding, but a very low level academic understanding.  I took a step back and decided to try and learn.  
 

New information still evolves my understanding basically every day.

 

I’m often reminded of a great story.  As you can imagine, as a long drive champion I had to brave the constant revelations of people who knew someone who hit it longer than me,  It was never a fellow competitor or even John Daly.  If was always my brother’s wife’s best friend’s dog groomer’s husband’s twin brother’s college roommate.  Multiple times a contest was arraigned and the results were laughable and predictable.

 

One day I was playing with a random 3 some in a practice round for a tournament.  Starting on the first hole I was informed, “Wow that’s huge but my buddy from my club hits it a lot farther than that.”

 

This went on nearly every hole till the middle of the back 9.  Ona 380 ish yard par 4 I tagged one in the front bunker.

 

”For not a very big guy it’s very impressive how far you hit it, but my buddy from my club could fly it on this green.”

 

I finally asked who this guy was as I might know him.

 

”His name is Monte Scheinblum and he’s the #1 long driver.”

 

I walked over to my bag, got my driver’s license and put it up to him.

 

He was obviously embarrassed and was at loss for words.

 

I asked him if it didn’t strike a chord when I introduced myself on the first tee.  He said, “I thought you said Marty.”

 

He wasn’t a bad guy at all, just trying to be in the know.

 

 

 

 

Welcome to WRX,... Marty.

 

Everyone needs a nom de plume.

[mgoblue83]

Everyone seems focused on the golf swing and how everything has to work in sequence with the correct timing.

 

This is true for becoming an elite player but is not the whole story when it comes to "speed". 

 

Fast players have incredibly strong forearms and are able to apply a lot more pressure to the grip in a shorter amount of time. This has nothing to do with sequencing and while it is limited by genetics to a certain extent it can also be trained.

 

As for the 70% of speed coming from hands/arms you need to think about it like this:

Take an average player who swings 100mph full gas. That same player will most likely be able to swing at least 70mph from their knees with minimal rotation and zero leg drive. Look at the example of Tiger woods outdriving the Foreplay guys from his knees if you want to see it in action.

 

A more extreme example is Bryson in a video with Rick Shiels where he was helping Rick improve his speed. Bryson can swing upwards of 140mph and he was able to swing 110~ mph with just a flick of the wrist and minimal body movement. Certainly not a golf swing. 

 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

Everyone seems focused on the golf swing and how everything has to work in sequence with the correct timing.

 

This is true for becoming an elite player but is not the whole story when it comes to "speed". 

 

Fast players have incredibly strong forearms and are able to apply a lot more pressure to the grip in a shorter amount of time. This has nothing to do with sequencing and while it is limited by genetics to a certain extent it can also be trained.

 

As for the 70% of speed coming from hands/arms you need to think about it like this:

Take an average player who swings 100mph full gas. That same player will most likely be able to swing at least 70mph from their knees with minimal rotation and zero leg drive. Look at the example of Tiger woods outdriving the Foreplay guys from his knees if you want to see it in action.

 

A more extreme example is Bryson in a video with Rick Shiels where he was helping Rick improve his speed. Bryson can swing upwards of 140mph and he was able to swing 110~ mph with just a flick of the wrist and minimal body movement. Certainly not a golf swing. 

 

There is a direct correlation with peak ground forces and clubhead speed.  Long drive guys have very high peaks of the three ground forces in the correct sequence which shows that using the ground correctly is how to hit the ball as far as possible.

 

Hitting the ball while on one's knees limits the body's contribution but does not eliminate it.  If you fix Tiger's shoulders to a wall so that they cannot move his forearms will not be able to generate much clubhead speed.  

[mgoblue83]

19 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

There is a direct correlation with peak ground forces and clubhead speed.  Long drive guys have very high peaks of the three ground forces in the correct sequence which shows that using the ground correctly is how to hit the ball as far as possible.

 

Hitting the ball while on one's knees limits the body's contribution but does not eliminate it.  If you fix Tiger's shoulders to a wall so that they cannot move his forearms will not be able to generate much clubhead speed.  

 

The point is that the ability to apply a lot of force quickly (and hold onto the club) with your hands and arms is a huge component of speed and is a huge differentiator between fast players and average players.

 

Ground forces, rotation, sequencing - all great but without ability to apply that force with hands and arms won't help much. Look at your average LPGA tour player. They have all of it (sequencing, ground force application, rotation) but have zero chance of swinging as fast as males primarily because of hand and arm strength and explosiveness.

 

Using your example with Tiger:

If you fixed his shoulders (or any other high speed player) and fixed the shoulders of an average speed player the high speed player is still going to be significantly faster simply because of the ability to apply force with hands and arms.

[Nels55]

20 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

The point is that the ability to apply a lot of force quickly (and hold onto the club) with your hands and arms is a huge component of speed and is a huge differentiator between fast players and average players.

 

Ground forces, rotation, sequencing - all great but without ability to apply that force with hands and arms won't help much. Look at your average LPGA tour player. They have all of it (sequencing, ground force application, rotation) but have zero chance of swinging as fast as males primarily because of hand and arm strength and explosiveness.

 

Using your example with Tiger:

If you fixed his shoulders (or any other high speed player) and fixed the shoulders of an average speed player the high speed player is still going to be significantly faster simply because of the ability to apply force with hands and arms.

According to my previous golf instructor a study was done at Stanford University that showed that the horsepower for and elite golf swing is generated by the glute muscles.  I believe this is correct and is the reason why men hit the ball further then women.  Men's glutes are faster and stronger which is why men also run a lot faster then women.

 

As for your assertion that powerful forearms contribute to clubhead speed I don't know the answer to that one and have discussed from both points of view in the past.  There are some here who probably know the answer but seem not much willing to share the data.

 

Here is a fun look at Michael Cherry's speed compared to an elite woman's speed:

 

[mgoblue83]

2 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

According to my previous golf instructor a study was done at Stanford University that showed that the horsepower for and elite golf swing is generated by the glute muscles.  I believe this is correct and is the reason why men hit the ball further then women.  Men's glutes are faster and stronger which is why men also run a lot faster then women.

 

As for your assertion that powerful forearms contribute to clubhead speed I don't know the answer to that one and have discussed from both points of view in the past.  There are some here who probably know the answer but seem not much willing to share the data.

 

Here is a fun look at Michael Cherry's speed compared to an elite woman's speed:

 

 

No argument here but I still think you are missing the point of my post.

 

Unlike running - the hands and arms (specifically grip strength) are a limiting factor in swing speed for most players. Yes, strong glutes are a driving engine of speed but without the ability to apply that force to the golf club with your hands and arms it's wasted. 

 

Think again about your example of "swinging" with your shoulders locked in place and without any rotation or leg drive. It 100% comes down to applying speed and force with the hands and arms. A fast player will be able to generate significantly more force using only hands and arms and it's a huge reason why they can apply speed more efficiently in the golf swing. 

 

I've seen so many people trying to gain speed through ground forces and rotation but they are simply stuck in 3rd gear because of limp noodle arms and grip strength. 

[johnrobison]

On 5/25/2024 at 1:38 PM, Chunkitgood said:

I have been taken to task for posting things then not replying to responses.

In fairness to those who've called you on it... You've been quite absent from this one, so...

 

On 5/23/2024 at 12:47 PM, Chunkitgood said:

I’m willing to learn and maybe even change my ideas.  It has happened a time or two.

And have you on this one?

[KD1]

Ive heard Monte say multiple times that hips are faster in the lpga than the pga. (maybe he repeated in this thread? I'm too lazy to go back and look) So why don't they hit it further?

 

I posted earlier in the thread of tiger hitting an absolute bomb off his knees. That is old broken down bionic man tiger at that. I've seen Monte do the same.

 

Take a look at this Dr Kwon graph @glk  posted last year.

 

 

The way I read that it looks like hand/wrists/forearms are the biggest speed contributors. Assuming those angular velocity measurements are independent of the other links up the chain if that makes sense. In other words it reads to me like hips, shoulders, ect. give a running start to fire the forearms.

 

... Any instructors out there have any experience teaching the golf swing to rock climbers?

Edited May 30 by KD1

[mgoblue83]

1 hour ago, KD1 said:

Ive heard Monte say multiple times that hips are faster in the lpga than the pga. (maybe he repeated in this thread? I'm too lazy to go back and look) So why don't they hit it further?

 

I posted earlier in the thread of tiger hitting an absolute bomb off his knees. That is old broken down bionic man tiger at that. I've seen Monte do the same.

 

Take a look at this Dr Kwon graph @glk  posted last year.

 

 

The way I read that it looks like hand/wrists/forearms are the biggest speed contributors. Assuming those angular velocity measurements are independent of the other links up the chain if that makes sense. In other words it reads to me like hips, shoulders, ect. give a running start to fire the forearms.

 

... Any instructors out there have any experience teaching the golf swing to rock climbers?

 

Yep and additionally grip strength is a huge limiting factor for a lot of players who otherwise have good sequencing and fast rotation. They simply don't have the strength to apply those forces to the club with their hands and arms.