Determining When Grass Clippings are "Piled for Removal"

[iacas]

A guy hit his ball into the fringe just short and left of a green, into what he described as "a pile of grass clippings, from mowing the fringe, a few feet square and 2 inches deep."

 

He didn't share the time of day, a photo, or anything else. I'm not even sure what hole it was on, its proximity to the maintenance shed, or the common maintenance practices at the course.

 

So the question is simply: how does one determine whether a "pile" of grass clippings is intended for removal, thus meeting the definition of GUR? Let's assume it's just a golfer playing a round of golf, as this specific situation is not likely to occur (others could, like is this stack of cut-down tree limbs here in the woods piled for removal or is this its final resting place?) in tournament play.

 

And yes, the player could likely take a photo, play two balls, and get a ruling later on, but even if they did that, how might you rule given only the above info? How is a player to determine whether the pile was "intended for removal" later on?

[Augster]

The way I’m reading it, it seems ANY grass clippings that are “piled” are deemed GUR as per the definition. 
 

The ROG has plenty of space to clarify further, either in the definition itself, or in the clarifications, and they simply don’t clarify. To me, that means a very broad use of GUR for grass clippings that have been “piled”. 
 

I’d certainly take relief, and grant relief, in the situation you cite. 

[Mr. Bean]

The player picks up their phone and calls the maintenance staff. In many cases that is the only sure way of knowing.

[Mr. Bean]

43 minutes ago, Augster said:

The way I’m reading it, it seems ANY grass clippings that are “piled” are deemed GUR as per the definition. 

 

Not at all! On many many courses the grass clippings are simply discarded on the edges of the roughs and left there to rot. Those are not GUR.

[Colin L]

I would think it entirely reasonable to assume clippings left on the fringe of a green were going to be uplifted - and promptly as they should never have been dumped there in the first instance.

[SNIPERBBB]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Not at all! On many many courses the grass clippings are simply discarded on the edges of the roughs and left there to rot. Those are not GUR.

or used to mulch around trees

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

I would think it entirely reasonable to assume clippings left on the fringe of a green were going to be uplifted - and promptly as they should never have been dumped there in the first instance.

might depend on the equipment used on the course...only time my course collects clippings is with the greens mower  and wherever they dump them is their final resting place. There is no manual raking of of clippings anywhere

Edited Wednesday at 10:23 AM by SNIPERBBB

[GoGoErky]

On the fringe I would consider them a pile. The rest of the course at least on the ones around here the clipping are just what the mower leaves and not meant to be collected/removed, also not piled at all

[Imp]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

The way I’m reading it, it seems ANY grass clippings that are “piled” are deemed GUR as per the definition. 
 

The ROG has plenty of space to clarify further, either in the definition itself, or in the clarifications, and they simply don’t clarify. To me, that means a very broad use of GUR for grass clippings that have been “piled”. 
 

I’d certainly take relief, and grant relief, in the situation you cite. 

@Mr. Bean (Since you sometimes chastise others for reading outside the rules, this ones for you....) "Call the maintenance staff". Can you please cite the allowance in the rules/rule number, which states that one should call the maintenance staff? I can't find it. I only see reference to committee.

 

Per the definition of GUR....

 

"Any materials left on the course that are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless the Committee has defined them as such."

 

We know the definition of committee... so we go from there, backwards, in who gets to make the call of the intent of them being removed or not. ("Committee is not always the club/course) On the fringe, I would say "acceptable" for that large a clump as cited in the op.  On the outside fringe of the rough (like discarded plugs from aeration), in the dirt lining the trees/fairway/walls/in the bushes? They were placed there in their forever home, "unacceptable". 

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 11:01 AM by Imp

[Colin L]

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

might depend on the equipment used on the course...only time my course collects clippings is with the greens mower  and wherever they dump them is their final resting place. There is no manual raking of of clippings anywhere

But they surely don't dump them on the fringe of a green do they?

[rogolf]

16 minutes ago, Colin L said:

But they surely don't dump them on the fringe of a green do they?

I ran into two instances while playing yesterday where cuttings from the green had been discarded very close to the fringe, in the very light (1 inch cut "rough").  There is no way that it was intended for removal.  I made a comment to the pro shop manager that the person cutting the greens was being lazy and needed to be spoken to.

[Shilgy]

29 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I ran into two instances while playing yesterday where cuttings from the green had been discarded very close to the fringe, in the very light (1 inch cut "rough").  There is no way that it was intended for removal.  I made a comment to the pro shop manager that the person cutting the greens was being lazy and needed to be spoken to.

Would “removal” include blowers?  The club I am at they use a large blower that is pulled behind a maintenance cart and blow virtually all of the clippings left after mowing.

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

But they surely don't dump them on the fringe of a green do they?

No, usually it's put around trees which I will kick off because they put it against the trees as mulch against trees is a good way to kill them. No trees around it gets dumped in the nearest no-mow

[iacas]

9 hours ago, Augster said:

The way I’m reading it, it seems ANY grass clippings that are “piled” are deemed GUR as per the definition.

 

As others have said, that's definitely not accurate. At some courses, they pile up grass clippings in one place. Big several foot tall mounds, often in the woods somewhere. That's not GUR as that's the grass clippings' final resting place.

 

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

On the fringe I would consider them a pile. The rest of the course at least on the ones around here the clipping are just what the mower leaves and not meant to be collected/removed, also not piled at all

 

It doesn't matter where they are, or whether they're "piled" or not. It's about whether they're intended to be removed.

 

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

I ran into two instances while playing yesterday where cuttings from the green had been discarded very close to the fringe, in the very light (1 inch cut "rough").  There is no way that it was intended for removal.  I made a comment to the pro shop manager that the person cutting the greens was being lazy and needed to be spoken to.

 

Yes, I'm inclined (though the time of day would matter to me) to say that this was just a lazy fringe cutter not discarding the clippings far enough away from the green. Or maybe he had to take a clippings basket off for something and didn't notice just how much he'd left there.

 

The time of day matters, IMO, because if it's noon… I'd be heavily inclined to say they weren't intended to be removed. Most courses mow greens and fringes early (fairways too if they can), and so they'd already have removed them if they intended to do so.

 

There's always the chance that they intended to remove them but forgot, too.

 

All told, and assuming (the player would obviously know this info) the player wasn't encountering this at 7:15am or something… I'd lean toward "bad luck, you got a lazy fringe cutter, play it as it lie and mention it in the shop after." Of course, that's if the player wanted to be a bit lazy, as my true advice if the person really cared about his score that day would be to play two balls and take photos and ask in the shop later, or email or call the USGA about it…

 

(Or, if they score the same with both balls, just post the score and move on.)

 

Whatever the answer would or should be (it depends on a few things of course), this situation is pretty rare. Especially on the fringe.

[jholz]

If you can't determine if a "pile of grass clippings" is GUR, can't one still treat individual clippings as "loose impediments?"

 

If so, can't you just clear the area around the ball and hit away?

Edited Wednesday at 03:08 PM by jholz

[ThinkingPlus]

Around here in hardpan heaven we call those piles turf.

[iacas]

10 minutes ago, jholz said:

If you can't determine if a "pile of grass clippings" is GUR, can't one still treat individual clippings as "loose impediments?"

 

If so, can't you just clear the area around the ball and hit away?

 

Yes, they're still loose impediments.

 

And you can't accidentally move the ball, and if it was 2" deep, I imagine the ball was sitting "down" in them a little. Even if they're 1" deep, the ball will be sitting down and will still affect the shot.

 

But, yes, you could clear away so you have a clearer path to the back of the ball (or as much of the back of the ball as you can get to without risking moving it).

[GoGoErky]

35 minutes ago, iacas said:

It doesn't matter where they are, or whether they're "piled" or not. It's about whether they're intended to be removed.

I would expect anything on the fringe is intended to be removed. I haven’t played a course yet where any clippings around the green hadn’t been removed 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

I would expect anything on the fringe is intended to be removed. I haven’t played a course yet where any clippings around the green hadn’t been removed 

 

And yet… they weren't (removed, at the time the guy encountered them). 🙂 Maybe he didn't notice, maybe he thought the wind would blow it away… etc.

 

The point was the word "pile" didn't have much to do with it. You can make a pile, and it's not GUR. Whether a pile is GUR hinges (in this case) on the "intended to be removed" stuff.

[nsxguy]

42 minutes ago, iacas said:

(Or, if they score the same with both balls, just post the score and move on.)

 

What else would they do ?

 

But your statement suggests they just hand in the scorecard the way it is - isn't that a DQ ? 

[Mr. Bean]

5 hours ago, Imp said:

@Mr. Bean (Since you sometimes chastise others for reading outside the rules, this ones for you....) "Call the maintenance staff". Can you please cite the allowance in the rules/rule number, which states that one should call the maintenance staff? I can't find it. I only see reference to committee.

 

Per the definition of GUR....

 

"Any materials left on the course that are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless the Committee has defined them as such."

 

We know the definition of committee... so we go from there, backwards, in who gets to make the call of the intent of them being removed or not. ("Committee is not always the club/course) On the fringe, I would say "acceptable" for that large a clump as cited in the op.  On the outside fringe of the rough (like discarded plugs from aeration), in the dirt lining the trees/fairway/walls/in the bushes? They were placed there in their forever home, "unacceptable". 

 

 

 

I believe you are mixing two things here.

 

The question was how one can know whether grass clippings are piled for removal, NOT whether those clippings are GUR. That is another story and you answered it yourself, although that was not the question OP asked. I answered the OP question.

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

As others have said, that's definitely not accurate. At some courses, they pile up grass clippings in one place. Big several foot tall mounds, often in the woods somewhere. That's not GUR as that's the grass clippings' final resting place.

 

 

It doesn't matter where they are, or whether they're "piled" or not. It's about whether they're intended to be removed.

 

 

Yes, I'm inclined (though the time of day would matter to me) to say that this was just a lazy fringe cutter not discarding the clippings far enough away from the green. Or maybe he had to take a clippings basket off for something and didn't notice just how much he'd left there.

 

The time of day matters, IMO, because if it's noon… I'd be heavily inclined to say they weren't intended to be removed. Most courses mow greens and fringes early (fairways too if they can), and so they'd already have removed them if they intended to do so.

 

There's always the chance that they intended to remove them but forgot, too.

 

All told, and assuming (the player would obviously know this info) the player wasn't encountering this at 7:15am or something… I'd lean toward "bad luck, you got a lazy fringe cutter, play it as it lie and mention it in the shop after." Of course, that's if the player wanted to be a bit lazy, as my true advice if the person really cared about his score that day would be to play two balls and take photos and ask in the shop later, or email or call the USGA about it…

 

(Or, if they score the same with both balls, just post the score and move on.)

 

Whatever the answer would or should be (it depends on a few things of course), this situation is pretty rare. Especially on the fringe.

There is no way that, in the situation I described, the clippings were "piled" or intended to "be removed".

Imo, the definition is clear - "natural materials that are piled for later removal" means that they are purposely piled AND will be removed.  It's not "piled" or "later removal". 

Again, imo, removal of grass clippings by a blower (as suggested by someone) does not meet that definition.

[nsxguy]

5 hours ago, Imp said:

@Mr. Bean (Since you sometimes chastise others for reading outside the rules, this ones for you....) "Call the maintenance staff". Can you please cite the allowance in the rules/rule number, which states that one should call the maintenance staff? I can't find it. I only see reference to committee.

 

Per the definition of GUR....

 

"Any materials left on the course that are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless the Committee has defined them as such."

 

We know the definition of committee... so we go from there, backwards, in who gets to make the call of the intent of them being removed or not. ("Committee is not always the club/course) On the fringe, I would say "acceptable" for that large a clump as cited in the op.  On the outside fringe of the rough (like discarded plugs from aeration), in the dirt lining the trees/fairway/walls/in the bushes? They were placed there in their forever home, "unacceptable". 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I believe you are mixing two things here.

 

The question was how one can know whether grass clippings are piled for removal, NOT whether those clippings are GUR. That is another story and you answered it yourself, although that was not the question OP asked. I answered the OP question.

 

Whether Mr Imp is mixing anything or not, you didn't answer HIS question even though you went to the trouble of quoting him.

 

Another thing you do fairly often.

[Mr. Bean]

Just now, nsxguy said:

 

 

Whether Mr Imp is mixing anything or not, you didn't answer HIS question even though you went to the trouble of quoting him.

 

Another thing you do fairly often.

 

Sorry, I thought the answer was dictated by common sense after I explained why I wrote my first post as I did. But let me rephrase:

 

If you do not know whether a pile of grass clippings is piled for removal or not you call the maintenance staff (around here called greenkeepers) and ask. Nothing to do with Rules, lots to do with common sense.

[david.c.w]

36 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sorry, I thought the answer was dictated by common sense after I explained why I wrote my first post as I did. But let me rephrase:

 

If you do not know whether a pile of grass clippings is piled for removal or not you call the maintenance staff (around here called greenkeepers) and ask. Nothing to do with Rules, lots to do with common sense.

 

You frequently mention common sense, but then expect golfers around the world to have the maintenance staff on speed dial.  It is simply flabbergasting.  

 

If you often call to back-of-the-house staff I bet they have assigned a special ringtone for when Mr. Bean calls.

[596]

I love reading rules questions threads.  The rules of golf are so clear that each thread ends up in arguing, "but what ifs" , and a ton of quotes from rules that may or may not even apply! 😁 

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, david.c.w said:

 

You frequently mention common sense, but then expect golfers around the world to have the maintenance staff on speed dial.  It is simply flabbergasting.  

 

If you often call to back-of-the-house staff I bet they have assigned a special ringtone for when Mr. Bean calls.

 

There are lots of situations in life that arise unexpectedly and sometimes you will be able to react swiftly and sometimes not. If you are in a hurry and do not have those 30-40 seconds to find the number from the home page of your club then you let it slide.

 

As I wrote, calling the staff is the only sure way of knowing.

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Sorry, I thought the answer was dictated by common sense after I explained why I wrote my first post as I did. But let me rephrase:

 

If you do not know whether a pile of grass clippings is piled for removal or not you call the maintenance staff (around here called greenkeepers) and ask. Nothing to do with Rules, lots to do with common sense.

 

Although I bolded the actual question within Imp's post, let me try again.

 

"Can you please cite the allowance in the rules/rule number, which states that one should call the maintenance staff?"

 

So your answer is "common sense" ?

 

Firstly, the maintenance staff, greenskeeper, whatever, probably knows almost nothing about the Rules of Golf. I suppose he might be able to tell you whether those grass shavings, assuming they were left there intentionally, were expected to be picked up at some point.

 

But, in general, he/they know how to cut the grass, where to place the tees and where and how to cut the holes.

 

"Piled for removal" on the fringe ? A somebody above suggested, the grass cutter may have hit a bump and therefore likely had no idea those cuttings were there, and we're supposed to call and ask ?

 

At least one golf course around here puts me through 4 or 5 different menus and even then I can seldom get to a live person, never mind the right person, never mind getting such a question answered.

 

As for common sense goes, to ME, common sense would suggest that ANY time 2 identical balls were found in the same area, the procedure would be the SAME, no matter who hit how many of them. But apparently that's just me. 

[ThinkingPlus]

3 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Although I bolded the actual question within Imp's post, let me try again.

 

"Can you please cite the allowance in the rules/rule number, which states that one should call the maintenance staff?"

 

So your answer is "common sense" ?

 

Firstly, the maintenance staff, greenskeeper, whatever, probably knows almost nothing about the Rules of Golf. I suppose he might be able to tell you whether those grass shavings, assuming they were left there intentionally, were expected to be picked up at some point.

 

But, in general, he/they know how to cut the grass, where to place the tees and where and how to cut the holes.

 

"Piled for removal" on the fringe ? A somebody above suggested, the grass cutter may have hit a bump and therefore likely had no idea those cuttings were there, and we're supposed to call and ask ?

 

At least one golf course around here puts me through 4 or 5 different menus and even then I can seldom get to a live person, never mind the right person, never mind getting such a question answered.

 

As for common sense goes, to ME, common sense would suggest that ANY time 2 identical balls were found in the same area, the procedure would be the SAME, no matter who hit how many of them. But apparently that's just me. 

I doubt the maintenance staff around here would understand the question's relevance or the answer to the question. In all likelihood the answer is "only if the boss tells me to". The boss's answer to the player will start with "do you have any idea how many tasks are currently on our plate" followed by grumbling and we'll see what can be done. Subsequently, nothing will be done.

[Colin L]

4 hours ago, jholz said:

If you can't determine if a "pile of grass clippings" is GUR, can't one still treat individual clippings as "loose impediments?"

 

If so, can't you just clear the area around the ball and hit away?

Yes and yes.  As with any loose impediment, take care not to move your ball.