Tilting correctly and handpath

[tommykrebs]

Tried it today on the range combined with Martin Chuck's chair drill and I was hitting beautiful draws the first time in my life. Even with the big stick. I already practiced the BS a couple years before but it was a complete mess. Couldn't hit the ball at all. To make it work I need to bump my hips and shift my weight. Transition and a proper tilt is the key.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1406740385' post='9817761']
Not at all. Waldron would agree completely. Hands follow the turn. As right shoulder turns it moves deeper. Hands move in at the same rate. Waldron would agree come platelet that the hands and club work in IMMEDIATELY in the backswing relative to the target line. Hands are over the right heel, just behind the right shoulder and about 60* across the chest. Which he'd again agree with completely.

Left arm is across your chest at setup (hands together) and should be across as you take it away. Gradually more so as right arm folds. Your hands should NOT work straight back or out in the takeaway.
[/quote]

Dan - great to see you back posting here again. And yes - I agree with those points. Folks mis-understand the illusion all the time. The clubhead tracks back on an arc to the inside of the target line immediately in the takeaway that I teach. With that slight pushaway blended into the pivot simultaneously, the shaft tracks back on the address plane angle. Hands move very slightly to the inside on a very shallow arc. Folks reading the thread forget that what brings the arms/hands/club on an arc to the inside is the body pivot, NOT the arms independently. Big difference!

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1406751646' post='9819157']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1406746707' post='9818611']
I think 90% of people don't truly understand what Jim is saying.
[/quote]

This is so true, and it's because most people on that thread don't appreciate that the arm swing illusion is about an ILLUSION and NOT a swing method. There is a reason Jim calls it an "illusion", its because the arms appear to move in a way that they really don't (ie they look like the move more side to side than in reality). I feel like lots of people see that thread, notice its popular, then just demand to know what the "method" is and how apply it. If instead they studied the thread itself and thought of WHY the illusion is there and what effect the illusion has on the understanding of how the arms work, people would be much more likely to understand/learn IMO.
[/quote]

Exactly right, the Illusion is exactly that, and I am not kidding - a very powerful optical illusion that makes golfers suck their hands. arms and club way inside the proper plane during the takeaway, and then across mid-line of the torso during Release, both are Fatal Flaws. Seeing through the Illusion is essential to understanding the swing principle of keeping arms in front of the chest at all times, so that you have space, ie not stuck.

I teach an on plane club motion - NOT an outside the plane motion or steep shaft angle, as I must have written in the ASI thread at least a million times, and in response to the usual suspects who repeatedly attacked me and the ASI principle, all the way thinking that I advocate for a steep and outside plane. Absolutely absurd to think of the ASI that way. Justin Rose and Jason Day are the two best swingers on the planet today, in my opinion, and they both clearly demonstrate the ASI principle perfectly in their on plane motions.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1406783319' post='9822435']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1406751646' post='9819157']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1406746707' post='9818611']
I think 90% of people don't truly understand what Jim is saying.
[/quote]

This is so true, and it's because most people on that thread don't appreciate that the arm swing illusion is about an ILLUSION and NOT a swing method. There is a reason Jim calls it an "illusion", its because the arms appear to move in a way that they really don't (ie they look like the move more side to side than in reality). I feel like lots of people see that thread, notice its popular, then just demand to know what the "method" is and how apply it. If instead they studied the thread itself and thought of WHY the illusion is there and what effect the illusion has on the understanding of how the arms work, people would be much more likely to understand/learn IMO.
[/quote]

Exactly right, the Illusion is exactly that, and I am not kidding - a very powerful optical illusion that makes golfers suck their hands. arms and club way inside the proper plane during the takeaway, and then across mid-line of the torso during Release, both are Fatal Flaws. Seeing through the Illusion is essential to understanding the swing principle of keeping arms in front of the chest at all times, so that you have space, ie not stuck.

I teach an on plane club motion - NOT an outside the plane motion or steep shaft angle, as I must have written in the ASI thread at least a million times, and in response to the usual suspects who repeatedly attacked me and the ASI principle, all the way thinking that I advocate for a steep and outside plane. Absolutely absurd to think of the ASI that way. Justin Rose and Jason Day are the two best swingers on the planet today, in my opinion, and they both clearly demonstrate the ASI principle perfectly in their on plane motions.
[/quote]

Really Jim?

How can ASI be interpreted as outside going back or steep coming down?

Considering the opposite is what all hacks do. Too inside going back and steep on the way down.

I guess I didn't pay close enough attention.

SMH.

Let's all teach low and slow, ring the bell and swing to right field.

[Grayback1973]

My takeaway is "dead handed" now and my arms do nothing but stay attached to my shoulders which just rotate back.My shaft stays dead on original plane at address until waist high.It is then that arms work up like swinging an axe.Because my shoulders have turned my arms are still in front of my chest.Well,they moved slightly right over my shoulder.Anyway,I am still ingraining the motion.It is a very easy and simple concept which does not require complicated swing thoughts to achieve my desired goal.....a good or descent position at the top.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1406785004' post='9822499']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1406783319' post='9822435']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1406751646' post='9819157']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1406746707' post='9818611']
I think 90% of people don't truly understand what Jim is saying.
[/quote]

This is so true, and it's because most people on that thread don't appreciate that the arm swing illusion is about an ILLUSION and NOT a swing method. There is a reason Jim calls it an "illusion", its because the arms appear to move in a way that they really don't (ie they look like the move more side to side than in reality). I feel like lots of people see that thread, notice its popular, then just demand to know what the "method" is and how apply it. If instead they studied the thread itself and thought of WHY the illusion is there and what effect the illusion has on the understanding of how the arms work, people would be much more likely to understand/learn IMO.
[/quote]

Exactly right, the Illusion is exactly that, and I am not kidding - a very powerful optical illusion that makes golfers suck their hands. arms and club way inside the proper plane during the takeaway, and then across mid-line of the torso during Release, both are Fatal Flaws. Seeing through the Illusion is essential to understanding the swing principle of keeping arms in front of the chest at all times, so that you have space, ie not stuck.

I teach an on plane club motion - NOT an outside the plane motion or steep shaft angle, as I must have written in the ASI thread at least a million times, and in response to the usual suspects who repeatedly attacked me and the ASI principle, all the way thinking that I advocate for a steep and outside plane. Absolutely absurd to think of the ASI that way. Justin Rose and Jason Day are the two best swingers on the planet today, in my opinion, and they both clearly demonstrate the ASI principle perfectly in their on plane motions.
[/quote]

Really Jim?

How can ASI be interpreted as outside going back or steep coming down?

Considering the opposite is what all hacks do. Too inside going back and steep on the way down.

I guess I didn't pay close enough attention.

SMH.

Let's all teach low and slow, ring the bell and swing to right field.
[/quote]
I think what he meant is people interpret his "solution" to the ASI as outside takeaway. IOW the solution to sucking inside is not going outside.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1406816196' post='9823731']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1406785004' post='9822499']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1406783319' post='9822435']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1406751646' post='9819157']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1406746707' post='9818611']
I think 90% of people don't truly understand what Jim is saying.
[/quote]

This is so true, and it's because most people on that thread don't appreciate that the arm swing illusion is about an ILLUSION and NOT a swing method. There is a reason Jim calls it an "illusion", its because the arms appear to move in a way that they really don't (ie they look like the move more side to side than in reality). I feel like lots of people see that thread, notice its popular, then just demand to know what the "method" is and how apply it. If instead they studied the thread itself and thought of WHY the illusion is there and what effect the illusion has on the understanding of how the arms work, people would be much more likely to understand/learn IMO.
[/quote]

Exactly right, the Illusion is exactly that, and I am not kidding - a very powerful optical illusion that makes golfers suck their hands. arms and club way inside the proper plane during the takeaway, and then across mid-line of the torso during Release, both are Fatal Flaws. Seeing through the Illusion is essential to understanding the swing principle of keeping arms in front of the chest at all times, so that you have space, ie not stuck.

I teach an on plane club motion - NOT an outside the plane motion or steep shaft angle, as I must have written in the ASI thread at least a million times, and in response to the usual suspects who repeatedly attacked me and the ASI principle, all the way thinking that I advocate for a steep and outside plane. Absolutely absurd to think of the ASI that way. Justin Rose and Jason Day are the two best swingers on the planet today, in my opinion, and they both clearly demonstrate the ASI principle perfectly in their on plane motions.
[/quote]

Really Jim?

How can ASI be interpreted as outside going back or steep coming down?

Considering the opposite is what all hacks do. Too inside going back and steep on the way down.

I guess I didn't pay close enough attention.

SMH.

Let's all teach low and slow, ring the bell and swing to right field.
[/quote]
I think what he meant is people interpret his "solution" to the ASI as outside takeaway. IOW the solution to sucking inside is not going outside.
[/quote]

I knew what he meant. I am just SMH it was interpreted that way.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1406820935' post='9824287']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1406816196' post='9823731']
[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1406785004' post='9822499']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1406783319' post='9822435']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1406751646' post='9819157']


This is so true, and it's because most people on that thread don't appreciate that the arm swing illusion is about an ILLUSION and NOT a swing method. There is a reason Jim calls it an "illusion", its because the arms appear to move in a way that they really don't (ie they look like the move more side to side than in reality). I feel like lots of people see that thread, notice its popular, then just demand to know what the "method" is and how apply it. If instead they studied the thread itself and thought of WHY the illusion is there and what effect the illusion has on the understanding of how the arms work, people would be much more likely to understand/learn IMO.
[/quote]

Exactly right, the Illusion is exactly that, and I am not kidding - a very powerful optical illusion that makes golfers suck their hands. arms and club way inside the proper plane during the takeaway, and then across mid-line of the torso during Release, both are Fatal Flaws. Seeing through the Illusion is essential to understanding the swing principle of keeping arms in front of the chest at all times, so that you have space, ie not stuck.

I teach an on plane club motion - NOT an outside the plane motion or steep shaft angle, as I must have written in the ASI thread at least a million times, and in response to the usual suspects who repeatedly attacked me and the ASI principle, all the way thinking that I advocate for a steep and outside plane. Absolutely absurd to think of the ASI that way. Justin Rose and Jason Day are the two best swingers on the planet today, in my opinion, and they both clearly demonstrate the ASI principle perfectly in their on plane motions.
[/quote]

Really Jim?

How can ASI be interpreted as outside going back or steep coming down?

Considering the opposite is what all hacks do. Too inside going back and steep on the way down.

I guess I didn't pay close enough attention.

SMH.

Let's all teach low and slow, ring the bell and swing to right field.
[/quote]
I think what he meant is people interpret his "solution" to the ASI as outside takeaway. IOW the solution to sucking inside is not going outside.
[/quote]

I knew what he meant. I am just SMH it was interpreted that way.
[/quote]
Ahhhh.... I see. I thought you didn't know what he meant so I said what I thought he meant but you knew what he meant I just didn't know what you meant.... I feel like I'm on an episode of Seinfeld right now.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1406821919' post='9824421']

Ahhhh.... I see. I thought you didn't know what he meant so I said what I thought he meant but you knew what he meant I just didn't know what you meant.... I feel like I'm on an episode of Seinfeld right now.
[/quote]

As long as I don't have to wear a puffy shirt and be the first instructor pirate...cuz I don't want to be a pirate.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1406823529' post='9824609']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1406821919' post='9824421']
Ahhhh.... I see. I thought you didn't know what he meant so I said what I thought he meant but you knew what he meant I just didn't know what you meant.... I feel like I'm on an episode of Seinfeld right now.
[/quote]

As long as I don't have to wear a puffy shirt and be the first instructor pirate...cuz I don't want to be a pirate.
[/quote]

Not that there is anything wrong with that....being a pirate that is....yada, yada, yada....

[cardoustie]

Dan ... [size=4]Nice to seeing you posting again. [/size]

Folks, Dan gave me this exact tip via a video lesson approx 18 months ago. My hand path was too straight. Arms steep at top. etc etc

I forgot about his lesson until approx. 6 weeks ago. My scoring average is plummeting and my range of scores is very tight (more consistency). Plus, I shot a lifetime personal best !!!

I tell you what. Get the handpath right and you will be shallower through the ball and hit it a lot straighter. Biggest area of improvement is with fairways and hybrids for me. I can still hook the driver, but maybe only once per round now,

Dan - I will send an updated vid to you for further tweaking. Be well

[Darth Leverage]

Hi Dan, just a curious question... I know you aren't a method instructor but I've noticed a few of your students eg Heath use more of an 'up and around' first move...

What pieces of the puzzle are required for this eg width rather than depth or release type etc. just trying to learn

[iteachgolf]

Has a lot to do with how much they turn and when they turn. Heath sets the club and then turns, kinda in two parts. This changes the look while resulting in the same final place. Snead would be good example of the opposite, a guy who turns a lot early so club and arms look more in but the relationship between his arms and his body are actually very similar.

[GaryRead]

Can someone give their opinion on why secondary tilt at setup is praised by so many,when in a backswing like the one described in this thread removes any Tilt preset at address with the left side tilt replacing what was right side tilt at setup.

If you stayed in your secondary Tilt the shoulders would turn parallel to the ground and a huge move off the ball would occur.

[TB07]

[quote name='GaryRead' timestamp='1406912255' post='9833285']
Can someone give their opinion on why secondary tilt at setup is praised by so many,when in a backswing like the one described in this thread removes any Tilt preset at address with the left side tilt replacing what was right side tilt at setup.

If you stayed in your secondary Tilt the shoulders would turn parallel to the ground and a huge move off the ball would occur.
[/quote]

Typically someone who has more tilt away at setup, will have a flatter shoulder turn then someone who sets up with less tilt away. You need some secondary into the downswing and impact. You can achieve the necessary secondary tilt with or without it at setup.

[tembolo1284]

Absolutely love this thread!

[jut111]

reread this thread over the weekend and thought it deserved a bump. Great info here.

Also prompted a question. I purchased Dan's short game videos and haven't had great luck implementing. Dan, would you suggest this same type takeaway/backswing on the basic chip shot.. after adjusting the setup and with minimial wrist hinge? Think that could be the missing piece for me.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='jut111' timestamp='1429559399' post='11400011']
reread this thread over the weekend and thought it deserved a bump. Great info here.

Also prompted a question. I purchased Dan's short game videos and haven't had great luck implementing. Dan, would you suggest this same type takeaway/backswing on the basic chip shot.. after adjusting the setup and with minimial wrist hinge? Think that could be the missing piece for me.
[/quote]

The hands work in on all shots.

[tinman143]

Love this thread, Dan. I think I've finally got the backswing after all these years. From adress, hands start back toward rear foot with little rotation but start to c0ck wrists up while lead shoulder moves down. Continue turning and trailing elbow bends 90* to top which almost forces my super stubborn right wrist to bend as arms rotate. On vid, I notice my right elbow doesn't move farther away from my ribcage than at address and I'm on right on plane. I'm giddy like a school girl and the wife is wondering wth am I doing at 2am in the garage!!

Can't wait to try this at the range.

[Grayback1973]

Wow,this thread is golden.I never knew the importance of proper tilting in the shoulders.I always thought they just rotated on the same plane back and through.No wonder I have always early extended!

[Grayback1973]

[quote name='tinman143' timestamp='1432806006' post='11641534']Love this thread, Dan. I think I've finally got the backswing after all these years. From adress, hands start back toward rear foot with little rotation but start to c0ck wrists up while lead shoulder moves down. Continue turning and trailing elbow bends 90* to top which almost forces the right wrist to have the desired bend. On vid, I notice my right elbow doesn't move farther away from my ribcage then at address and I'm on right on plane. I'm giddy like a school girl and the wife is wondering wth am I doing at 2am in the garage!!

Can't wait to try this at the range.[/quote]Be patient with this and don't expect instant results.The first few range sessions for me were disastrous as my shoulders were too used to a level turn causing a "hold and dump" pattern.I did some deep practice with this recently and I couldn't believe my impact alignments.

[mschu24]

I will apologize before hand because I did not read the whole thread (its pretty long).

But basically is my hands move slightly away from me in my initial takeaway that isnt ideal?

They should move in towards my body?

[iteachgolf]

They don't move towards the body. They do move in. The right shoulder is working in/away from the target line immediately as you start turning. If the hands simply move with the pivot as it turns away from the target line they will move in. If hands go straight back in the takeaway they are working OUT relative to the body

[Grayback1973]

Dan,do some people try pushing their hands away from their body to create width?

[iteachgolf]

Some do it thinking they are creating width or keeping the arms in front. When in fact to keep arms in sync and "in front" they must work in during the backswing

[Dave D]

a great thread to reread through, getting the arms deeper and more in is exactly what Dan prescribed in my lesson with him so its great to read through all the nuggets of information and pictures.

[tinman143]

[quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1432816980' post='11642114'][quote name='tinman143' timestamp='1432806006' post='11641534']Love this thread, Dan. I think I've finally got the backswing after all these years. From adress, hands start back toward rear foot with little rotation but start to c0ck wrists up while lead shoulder moves down. Continue turning and trailing elbow bends 90* to top which almost forces the right wrist to have the desired bend. On vid, I notice my right elbow doesn't move farther away from my ribcage then at address and I'm on right on plane. I'm giddy like a school girl and the wife is wondering wth am I doing at 2am in the garage!!

Can't wait to try this at the range.[/quote]Be patient with this and don't expect instant results.The first few range sessions for me were disastrous as my shoulders were too used to a level turn causing a "hold and dump" pattern.I did some deep practice with this recently and I couldn't believe my impact alignments.[/quote]
Dan has instructed me on what I should be doing in past lessons but I couldn't get it right without this thread. I still had flat shoulders and my tush came off the line (I would actually rise up during the BS). What clicked for me is that hands moving in ALONG WITH the lead shoulder moving down while not rotating your arms too early is the ticket. Would love to post the vid but I'm in my boxers :P. I just need to remember to also start cocking the wrists immediately.

[Grayback1973]

[quote name='tinman143' timestamp='1432821835' post='11642594'][quote name='Grayback1973' timestamp='1432816980' post='11642114'][quote name='tinman143' timestamp='1432806006' post='11641534']Love this thread, Dan. I think I've finally got the backswing after all these years. From adress, hands start back toward rear foot with little rotation but start to c0ck wrists up while lead shoulder moves down. Continue turning and trailing elbow bends 90* to top which almost forces the right wrist to have the desired bend. On vid, I notice my right elbow doesn't move farther away from my ribcage then at address and I'm on right on plane. I'm giddy like a school girl and the wife is wondering wth am I doing at 2am in the garage!!

Can't wait to try this at the range.[/quote]Be patient with this and don't expect instant results.The first few range sessions for me were disastrous as my shoulders were too used to a level turn causing a "hold and dump" pattern.I did some deep practice with this recently and I couldn't believe my impact alignments.[/quote]
Dan has instructed me on what I should be doing in past lessons but I couldn't get it right without this thread. I still had flat shoulders and my tush came off the line (I would actually rise up during the BS). What clicked for me is that hands moving in ALONG WITH the lead shoulder moving down while not rotating your arms too early is the ticket. Would love to post the vid but I'm in my boxers :P. I just need to remember to also start cocking the wrists immediately.[/quote]Indeed.....rotating arms too soon in back swing was a fault of mine for many years.I still continually train my takeaway.

[Ghost of Snead]

Proper tilt in the backswing and hand path in the backswing is definitely easier than the same in the downswing. Preventing a downswing path that's too in-to-out by moving the trail shoulder and hands out to the ball at 90* to the spine is much more difficult as indicated by the number of good players who get under-plane on the downswing.

[Grayback1973]

[quote name='lefty57' timestamp='1432824502' post='11642920']Proper tilt in the backswing and hand path in the backswing is definitely easier than the same in the downswing. Preventing a downswing path that's too in-to-out by moving the trail shoulder and hands out to the ball at 90* to the spine is much more difficult as indicated by the number of good players who get under-plane on the downswing.[/quote]It is difficult,I agree.For a flat shouldered steep dumper the correct shoulder path will feel practically vertical! But it is not when seeing it on film.I would also add that doing it right will put a stretch in all the oblique muscles down to the love handles.You'll feel it and it will NOT be comfortable.