Count all your strokes? really?

[seniorgolfer1947]

What I have always wanted to do when I see a fairway fluffer is gently throw down a tee next to is newly improved lie, but I dont have the nerve I just do a slow burn.

[Milo]

If it's anything other than a practice round we just swap cards. Saves any uncertainty.

[Bonneville85308]

I play a lot of "practice' rounds by myself where I'll play 2 balls, take mulligans, move the ball, etc. I don't post those rounds for my handicap. If I'm posting, I'm playing by the rules (at least to the best of my knowledge) and not moving the ball unless permitted by winter rules, ground under repair, etc. and not giving myself putts, although taking those given to me by others.

I don't care how anyone else chooses to play if it's not a competition. If it's a friendly round, and we're not playing a match or anything, I honestly don't care if someone else wants to move the ball, go ahead and do it if it makes you enjoy the game.

[BallzOut]

[quote name='bchester6' date='15 February 2010 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1266279556' post='2253955']
Do you count ALL your strokes really? This means no mulli's or breakfast balls.... Everyone loves to whip out their index (especially if it's a single digit) but how many are really what they say they are? I play with guys that say they're a 8 but they can hardly get off the first tee box or they take about 2-3 mulli's throughout the round. Those same guys pick up 3 foot putts and call "gimme" all day long. How about the buddy that "convienently" puts himself down for a 5 when you know good and well he got a 6. I guess it amuses me, laughable at times, that golfers and fisherman struggle with telling the truth as if we won't find out how bad they really are by playing with them.
[/quote]


To quote Bobby Jones.... “There are two kinds of golf: golf--and tournament golf. And they are not at all the same thing."

I say if you don’t care about counting those strokes, don't. The only person in your group you are fooling is yourself. But I can promise you this, If you are playing me for money, or in a qualifying event, not having the 3 foot putt experience behind you or confidence in a 80 yard shot over water to a tight pin, it will surely show as you lip out those gimmies, or chunk it into the water! And I WILL take your money!

[Sawgrass]

Take a mulligan, or a short putt, and you give up having any idea of what you would have shot that day.

I'd rather go home sad than deluded.

[kesler]

I am a 20 handicap. I do not take mullis or breakfast balls. I do not care if the guys I play with do. I have tried not counting strokes before and when I do it sticks in my head the whole round. I have accepted for now I can find my way around the course and not hold anybody up. I am not going on tour ever at 55 years old. I like to keep my head clear and have a good time with anybody I play with. So I do now count all shots. Would I like to shoot all low scores , yes if it is a true score.

[UnskilledGolfer]

I have a buddy that shaves strokes every round, and we're are talking major strokes. We usually play a quick 9 holes and he would usually get a mid 50, but we all knew he was shaving. So, one day we "refreshed his mind" on every hole about what he actually was getting. On one long par 4, we watched him rack up 13 strokes, and when it came time to write it down he quickly remarked, "Seven." After we reminded him of the strokes he "forgot" we went on our way. He ended up with a 75, and he was so confused about why he did so bad. So yeah, some people like the false sense of skill.

[bazinky]

I used to play with a group of 7-8 golfers that used to move the ball in the fairway ALL the time. It was actually a standing rule with their group (they essentially played winter rules all year long). They were nice guys and played for really small stakes, so I didn't mind that I was giving them an advantage by always playing the ball down. However, once they then decided that you could rake and replace your ball in a bunker, I figured it was time to play elsewhere ...

[Sid Vicious]

We play down, but when the course is soaked, which has been the case a lot this winter, we usually move them in the fairway. I don't see any harm in that, since some of the low spots get really muddy.

Sometimes the 6" gimmies stretch to 2+ foot sliders, and that's when we remind everyone that while giving a 6 incher is one thing, giving real putts are another. We also do pickups after a double, but everyone is a 10hcp or less, so that one doesn't matter either. If you are on your way to a 7 in this group you lost the hole anyway.

I usually tell people I have bets with another group and prefer to hole out, but when it's on the lip, I'm not going to make a fuss about it. I just let the other guys in the foursome decide what they want to give to each other and what they want to putt. If I see someone getting 2-3 footers all the time, I just don't bring up the subject of betting with them next week. We mix and match all the players in our team games every week, so it doesn't take long to figure out who is fudging and who is not.

[Greggz]

[quote name='UnskilledGolfer' date='16 February 2010 - 01:30 PM' timestamp='1266345038' post='2255608']
I have a buddy that shaves strokes every round, and we're are talking major strokes. We usually play a quick 9 holes and he would [b]usually get a mid 50[/b], but we all knew he was shaving. So, one day we "refreshed his mind" on every hole about what he actually was getting. On one long par 4, we watched him rack up 13 strokes, and when it came time to write it down he quickly remarked, "Seven." After we reminded him of the strokes he "forgot" we went on our way. [b]He ended up with a 75[/b], and he was so confused about why he did so bad. So yeah, some people like the [b]false sense of skill[/b].
[/quote]
You know, I am not even sure how to phrase this, as I don't want to be rude. Still, I am sure this will sound wrong.

But if shaving strokes so that your 75 looks like a mid 50's round gives someone a false sense of skill.....well....uhhhhh....on second thought, I guess I just better keep quiet.

[Tylanthus]

Maybe it's due to playing a lot of cheap and muddy courses in Oregon, but we play winter rules about 10 months out of the year.

No mulligans. No gimmies. Proper use of provisional balls.

[amtrac24]

I count all mine. The only time I don't follow the rules is this exact situation: Lets say I am teeing off...I hit a ehhh shot. Looks like its in the rough - no big deal.
You get up there and for the life of you can't find the ball. So you should go back to the tee box and rehit...if I ever tried that on ANY of the courses I play I would be shot at. So I drop a ball where I believe my first ball landed near. So the drive that i lost is 1, penalty stroke 2, re-tee 3...and i would be hitting 4 from my drop. Obviously my 2nd drive could OB or I could shank it.

What does everyone else do in that situation?

[Sawgrass]

I have a buddy that shaves strokes every round, and we're are talking major strokes. We usually play a quick 9 holes and he would usually get a mid 50, but we all knew he was shaving. So, one day we "refreshed his mind" on every hole about what he actually was getting. On one long par 4, we watched him rack up 13 strokes, and when it came time to write it down he quickly remarked, "Seven." After we reminded him of the strokes he "forgot" we went on our way. He ended up with a 75, and he was so confused about why he did so bad. So yeah, some people like the false sense of skill.

You know, I am not even sure how to phrase this, as I don't want to be rude. Still, I am sure this will sound wrong.

 

But if shaving strokes so that your 75 looks like a mid 50's round gives someone a false sense of skill.....well....uhhhhh....on second thought, I guess I just better keep quiet.

 

I'm glad you said what you didn't say here, 'cause I'm thinkin' the same thing.

[Pepperturbo]

 I count all my strokes and play the ball down when playing for $ or in a tournament, or it's mutually agreed upon.  However I won't follow the rules to the point of being anal it proves nothing.  Besides there are times during casual play when I don't get to warm up before teeing off so I might hit an extra ball, but always play my first ball.   

I have friends that overlook their actual hole score or purposely forget... If there's no game on, I always ask what they got, keeping what I know to be different to myself.

[Greggz]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' date='18 February 2010 - 12:42 AM' timestamp='1266471750' post='2259432']
 [b]I count all my strokes and play the ball down when playing for $ or in a tournament[/b], or it's mutually agreed upon.  However I won't follow the rules to the point of being anal it proves nothing.  Besides there are times during casual play when I don't get to warm up before teeing off so I might hit an extra ball, but always play my first ball.   

I have friends that overlook their actual hole score or purposely forget... If there's no game on, I always ask what they got, keeping what I know to be different to myself.
[/quote]
Pepper,

Your comments really struck me. I've read your posts and you seem to have a great passion for the game.

I've gotta say, if you're out there rolling the ball around and not counting all your strokes in any round you're not playing golf. And you certaintly should not be posting scores.

The game should have integrity. And by the way, following the rules does prove something....it proves what you scored that day.

[Pepperturbo]

 You're right I have passion, but "my" integrity and knowing the difference between what's right and wrong overrides most everything including the game of golf.  But worry not, my index is based on real scores, and that's all that counts; everything else is subjective.

[Mr_Wolfe]

I know the guys you are talking about, but if there is nothing on the line, I don't care how you play.

There is a set group of us who play almost weekly. We play for money and we have 1 rule that is in effect every week. You get 1 breakfast ball off the first tee. The reason is, we don't go to the range and we are not like the pros who hit 150 balls before their first tee shot. We are getting out of our cars and the first time we swing the club, is our tee shot. I know, it still doesn't make it right, but the funny thing is, whenever the breakfast ball is in place, you never need it. We may have 1 guy use a breakfast ball every 2 weeks.

Mr. Wolfe

[Todd York]

I count all of my strokes (currently my GHIN is a 4.4 ) but I love the guys that don't. If I draw one of them in the club's match play, friendly money game, or in a cup match, that's great. They tank and all of their 'issues' are exposed. The reverse is the player that bothers me. I'm not saying that every 15'er who shoots a clutch 78 is a sandbagger because the 15'er may be a bad putter/driver who is on that day. I'm talking about the legit 8 or 9 cap who carries a 12 or 15. Unfortunately, there's a few out there and unless you're playing head's up, it's tough to knock them off. Everyone at my club knows who these people are so it's not a problem. The simple answer is either play head's up or don't bet.

[mat562]

I'm not going to lie and say that I always hole [i]every [/i]putt, but if I'm playing any sort of serious game I hole every putt that's more than six inches. I hole them when I'm practicing too. Or, at least, [i]I try to[/i]. I've never been a man for raking away three footers. I was taught early on that if you're not forcing yourself to hole those putts on a daily basis you'll never develop any confidence to hole them when it really mattters. In matchplay, I'll take whatever I'm given.

I often play two and three balls when I'm out for a bit of on-course practice but, again, in any sort of a serious game, mulligans are frowned upon amongst my circle of friends. I may well have another go at a shot if I've made a rickets of it, but the first one is the one that still counts. Wherever it's ended up.

As for all the other rules of golf, why play the game if you're not going to do it properly? Touching sand is a penalty and dropping a ball where you lost the last one or where it went over the fence is called cheating where I live. It's as easy to do things properly as it is to play at it.

As for my handicap, given that it comes via scored competitive rounds, it's 100% legit.

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote]i guess it's because i play with "the guy" about twice a week and it's really buggin' me to the point where I'm about to hurt his feelings. It wouldnt' be so bad if "the guy" didn't always have his team winning all the time either, albeit with his creative scoring methods. It seems as though I can't shake him because he practically lives at my home course. He's extremely nice, buy you beers all day long nice, but nobody wants to call him out.[/quote]

Bchester, I have a buddy of mine who beats me regularly. Does he? Well, many times there will be two or three stokes he forgets to count. But he is a good buddy, a nice guy, and he also buys beers all day. However, before engaging in a confrontation with someone about honesty or integrity, I look very closely at the pros and cons:

Your list would be:

Pros -
- I get to be right
- It is no longer "buggin' me"
- I feel satisfied because I was the one who called him out

Cons -
- He will likely still cheat; people do what they do
- You have damaged a relationship with an extremely nice person
- You will have created awkwardless while on the course and in the clubhouse with this person
- You will have to buy more beer yourself

So the question becomes, are you prepared to pay this "price" to be right? I think of my friend, and even with his lousy math, there is no way I would ever call him out. I'd gladly lose $5 Nassaus to him all day because:
- He is a person I care about
- His companionship is worth more than I would lose in bets
- I get it back from him through the cart girl anyways

This may not be "right" but it is the [u]right thing[/u] to do.

But I think Pepperturbo hits the nail on the head. I know the truth, and I know my score is honest, so that is what really matters to me. If I truly won (even though the scorecard doesn't say it), I'm satisfied with knowing that.

Heck, life is too short. People we enjoy golfing with are to be treasured. and as long as you can live with your score, that's all that counts.

[Mr_Wolfe]

^^^ I understand about being nice and the guy is nice and buys beers, etc. BUT, you have to ask yourself how nice the guy is if he continually lies about his score and takes money off of you. The money is not his, he is essentially stealing it from everyone. Like I said, I am all about letting people play how they want, but if you are cheating and we are playing a money match, I will call you out on it. It is not your fault and it is uncomfortable, but the other person should have never put you in that position. THAT is not nice.

Mr. Wolfe

[mesquite2]

It's simple, if you are playing a round & are going to post your score, then you count EVERY stroke, no mulligans, OB, go back to where you hit from, NO gimmes, play by the rules. If you are out there working on your game & hitting 2 or 3 balls, that's different. Not posting a score, fine, do what you want, just don't tell everybody that you are an "8" when you are a "15". My group ALWAYS play for $ 20.00 a man, we usually get 20-28 guys in the group, A-B-C-D picked with a blind draw, 1st & 2nd place front & back nines & team scats. ANYONE who gets caught cheating is AUTOMATICALLY out of the group. The same person(who works in the pro shop) records all the scores. This group plays 5 days a week.

[Sawgrass]

If you find a friend you can play with who has the exact same attitude as you do towards the rules, cherish him.

[Greggz]

[quote name='mesquite2' date='18 February 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1266517872' post='2260287']
My group ALWAYS play for $ 20.00 a man, we usually get 20-28 guys in the group, A-B-C-D picked with a blind draw, 1st & 2nd place front & back nines & team scats. ANYONE who gets caught cheating is AUTOMATICALLY out of the group. The same person(who works in the pro shop) records all the scores. This group plays 5 days a week.
[/quote]
I've played in groups like this for many years. The last one I was in would get 30 to 40 guys at $25 a pop. That creates a nice size pot.

I've seen many a new member join the group and have a rude awakening. They've never really played by the rules of golf. If you are used to fluffing your ball, taking generous drops, grounding your clubs in hazards, etc., etc., it can come as quite a shock. In fairness to many of them, they don't really know the rules. However, they learn fast. Or they are politely asked to never, ever, ever come back again.

[razz11]

This topic pretty much struck home with me. I have 3 buddies that I play with regularly. One is a legit 3-4 handicap, the other is a beginner that we are trying to teach the game, and the third is a friend I've had all of my life and claims to be about a 9, but in all reality is closer to a 12-13. We give the new guy strokes or mulli's when we are trying to speed up play or whatever, but myself and the 3 handi play by the rules all the time. My best friend out of the group is the claimed 9 and the only reason it bothers me is because I play to about that handicap now and he always wants to play for money and compare scores after each round. I always kept it inside and never said anything for the sake of the relationship, but about the middle of last summer I finally tried to stop it. Instead of being a jerk and confronting him I just said before a 15 dollar game that we had to putt everything out. Surprisingly it worked and he did putt everything out when he normally picks everything up inside 5 feet. So I was happy until he starts reading off scores (he kept score that day and I knew that I had beat him by 3 or 4 strokes). He tells me my real score which was an 85 and then says, "oh I beat you by 2 with an 83, so you can just pay me when we go out next." I just said okay and while we were walking to the parking lot to leave I asked if I could see the card because I wanted to check out my putting for the round. Of course he "accidentally" added his score wrong and came up with 6 strokes less than he should have put down. WEIRD! I still didn't say anything that day, but the next time out it was just me and him playing and while walking the round we were blabbing about life or something and I just brought it up in a confident, but not harsh conversation. It actually turned out really well and he appologized and has been honest ever since. It has made our golf relationship much better, he actually comes to practice putting with me some now, and I'm not always stewing inside during the rounds we play. It's amazing what a stern and thought out conversation will do to a guy...

[petter7]

Play by the rules and count every shot no matter how bad it gets. It's the only way to develop the discipline
to eliminate careless play which will lead to lower scores. This approach also gives the golfer the best chance
to fulfill his potential and possibly exceed it. You'll learn more about the game and yourself in the long run!!

[360_CS]

When i first started playing golf i use to miss a lot of 3 foot putts and i just counted them as in, also when i went in the hazards or out of bounds i never you to count them either. Then i realized that i was just cheating myself. Today i don't do that. But when i lose a ball from a shot that even wasn't that bad i don't go back to the original spot and hit another one i just drop one where i thought my landed. If it lands in some real thick grass or some thick bushes i always hit a provisional and if i don't find the original ball i will use the provisional.

Like one time in interclub i hit a drive landed about 3 yards in the right rough, couldn't find it, all four of us looked for 5 mins and still didn't find in so i had to pick up. If that happened to me when i was playing a normal round i will just drop a ball where i thought the ball was and count it as my second shot.

[jhoffman27]

When I play golf, I'm out there to have a good time with my friends, maybe drink a beer or two, and enjoy the sun. Which means there are a lot of times where we don't even keep score, we're out there just to have fun. In those cases, yeah I will hit the occasional mulligan or improve the occasional lie, but since nothing is going on the scorecard and we're having a good time, who cares?

Once we start keeping score, then everything goes by the book.

[Sean2]

[quote name='amtrac24' date='17 February 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1266464391' post='2259194']
I count all mine. The only time I don't follow the rules is this exact situation: Lets say I am teeing off...I hit a ehhh shot. Looks like its in the rough - no big deal.
You get up there and for the life of you can't find the ball. So you should go back to the tee box and rehit...if I ever tried that on ANY of the courses I play I would be shot at. So I drop a ball where I believe my first ball landed near. So the drive that i lost is 1, penalty stroke 2, re-tee 3...and i would be hitting 4 from my drop. Obviously my 2nd drive could OB or I could shank it.

What does everyone else do in that situation?[/quote]
We do the same thing. It's a pace of play thing. And you're right, the groups following would be a tad angry to say the least if we go back to re-tee. Of course, tournament play is different.

However, that's the only exception I'll make. If I don't count every shot, how will I ever know my real handicap?

[Hateto3Putt]

I'm in a weekly skins game. I also have several Nassau's and match play bets out there with about 6-10 of the other guys. Since not everyone betting is in my foursome, us side betters always finish the hole. Last year, I personally missed an 18 incher for birdie that would have won at least $50. (I still get razzed about that)

I know some folks in the skins game, pick up putts if they're "out of the hole". One guy in particular would play the skins, but not get into any side bets. At the end of the round, he would announce the lowest scores and he was always in the top 5 or so. I knew he was a picker upper, so one day he was in my group and I said "let's have a lowest putts bet for a buck".

Long story short, when forced to putt everything, his scores rose out of the top tier of the group.

He no longer wants to play in the lowest putts bet, which has now become a standard. He also has stopped announcing scores.

We've also made it a standard to "qualify" the par 3 greenies. That means that if you are closest to the pin on the par 3, you must get par or better. A 3 jack loses the CP. Many a 12 footer has been 3 putted because of the added pressure.

Mulligans? Gimmees? Do overs? Fluffs? Not in my world. But, keep in mind I have bets on just about every swing. YMMV