Are the taller Tour players using shafts longer than std on their irons?

[Masse1369]

I talked with a guy at my club about fittings who used to be a top Zevo fitter and what he said made a lot of sense. The length of the club is more important than lie angle. I play my irons around 3/8" over (38.125" 5 iron). Lie boards truly don't matter to me because I hit a STD lie club out on the toe and I hit a something five degrees upright out on the toe side of the sole. We agreed each club has to be fit individually. He said he liked to take a sharpie and draw a straight line on the back of a ball. Hit a few shots with each club and look at the mark it leaves on the face. If it tilts left than bend it a little upright and vice versa. Everybody swings each club differently. I sweep my longer irons and I get progressively steeper going through the set. I'm 6'1.5" barefoot medium to broad shoulders and wear a 34/35 sleeve length shirt. I'm getting a set of the new Pro Combos and am actually going to do a write up with how I fit myself and I think a lot of people will learn something because of how simple it really is. I play to a +2 and am a better than average ball striker when I'm able to play/practice...

[kooch1221]

[quote name='LCP' timestamp='1385649914' post='8220962']
[quote name='kooch1221' timestamp='1385648709' post='8220872']
[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1352954430' post='5936601']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1352952546' post='5936479']
I meant fade...sorry...anyways

I'm not sure how tall you are, but I'm 6'5" and most of my buddies that I'm referring to range from 6'3" to 6'8". I think its presumptuous for you to say that without ever seeing anyone swing, how they hold the club, knee bend, bend at the hips, etc.

I wasnt fitted by an OEM either, it was an independent fitter. I just happened to buy OEM clubs. And I think my club length works out fine for me. I'm damn near a scratch golfer.
[/quote]

I'm 6' 4" and have been a professional golfer for the last 5 years. Not trying to be presumptuous at all, truly attempting to be helpful so let me try to explain. There is one thing an upright lie angle does that can not be disputed as it's pure geometry, it moves the ball position closer to the golfer regardless of length. Think of a right triangle, angle A is the lie angle and the hypotenuse is the clubs length. As angle A(lie angle) increase the horizontal leg (ball position) of the triangle becomes shorter for a given length. This is about the worst thing that could be done to a tall golfer because the closer ball position does not allow enough space for a proper release of the club into the ball and forces a steep almost over the top move that impedes a proper inside out swing path. This is why so many tall golfers hit the ball towards the toe even with an upright lie angle.

The club itself will dictate how the golfer swings to some extent. Too short and/or too upright only magnifies these problems. Hence why I stated be generous when adding length and very stingy when increasing the lie angle. I'm looking at the golfer, how the golfer generates swing dynamics and how the club fits into all of this.

The OEM's are very reluctant to add length due to swingweight increases and shaft flex issues. They are only protecting their own interests and not the golfers.
[/quote]

Thank you for this. It validates what I have seen this year after I made the switch to plus 1". I am definitely straighter now with my irons as I feel like I have the room to hit thru a shot especially with the short irons. My old miss was a weak block to the right or a dead pull. (Either stuck inside or OTT move). A side note as it relates to your comment on lie angle in over length clubs, PING flattens the lie angle (color code) when they build over standard length clubs. If I remember right. For every +1/2" they will flatten the lie angle by .75*. So a club built by PING at +1" and green dot will be *1.5 flatter then one they build at standard length and green dot.
[/quote]

I've seen that stated ad nauseam as well as the counter position that they don't. I had mine spec'd at +1.75"/+2" and +2.25º. Ping sent me clubs at those lengths with green dots that were +2.25º over the standard specs. I think there's some confusion because Ping insists they will "effectively play flatter" or something like that, which of course assumes the golfer's hands are in the same height, and not at a taller height or something. I don't really know how to make sense of their statements sometimes. But I know what the clubs I received spec at. I also compared my very long green dots to a set of +1" green dots on the sales floor at the store I bought them from and the lie angles appeared to be identical on my ordered clubs and those sales floor clubs.
[/quote]

Ok I was just going by what Ping states in their KB. YMMV. For giggles I just checked my Anser irons which are green dot +1" and they look to be much closer to standard then +2.25* over.

[kloyd0306]

[quote name='rybo' timestamp='1352954430' post='5936601']
[quote name='somaplr' timestamp='1352952546' post='5936479']
I meant fade...sorry...anyways

I'm not sure how tall you are, but I'm 6'5" and most of my buddies that I'm referring to range from 6'3" to 6'8". I think its presumptuous for you to say that without ever seeing anyone swing, how they hold the club, knee bend, bend at the hips, etc.

I wasnt fitted by an OEM either, it was an independent fitter. I just happened to buy OEM clubs. And I think my club length works out fine for me. I'm damn near a scratch golfer.
[/quote]

I'm 6' 4" and have been a professional golfer for the last 5 years. Not trying to be presumptuous at all, truly attempting to be helpful so let me try to explain. [u][b]There is one thing an upright lie angle does that can not be disputed as it's pure geometry, it moves the ball position closer to the golfer regardless of length.[/b][/u] Think of a right triangle, angle A is the lie angle and the hypotenuse is the clubs length. As angle A(lie angle) increase the horizontal leg (ball position) of the triangle becomes shorter for a given length. This is about the worst thing that could be done to a tall golfer because the closer ball position does not allow enough space for a proper release of the club into the ball and forces a steep almost over the top move that impedes a proper inside out swing path. This is why so many tall golfers hit the ball towards the toe even with an upright lie angle.

The club itself will dictate how the golfer swings to some extent. Too short and/or too upright only magnifies these problems. Hence why I stated be generous when adding length and very stingy when increasing the lie angle. I'm looking at the golfer, how the golfer generates swing dynamics and how the club fits into all of this.

The OEM's are very reluctant to add length due to swingweight increases and shaft flex issues. They are only protecting their own interests and not the golfers.
[/quote]
Yes, tall people are often poorly fitted especially when more upright lie angles are used to "mask" the fact that they need added shaft length to increase the vertical butt-to-ground measurement/dimension.

However, short people are disadvantaged also when OEMs simply maintain a so called standard length shaft but then "fit" by using very flat lies.

This "stupidity" results in short players standing further from the ball than tall players - which makes no sense what so ever.

Your understanding of the fitting process is not as widely known as it perhaps should be but most of the OEMs really don't care too much. Ping's chart is Ok for the middle range of physical build but when golfers are outside of that range (quite to very tall and quite to very short), their chart is useless and moreover, a hindrance to such players.

[webber]

Spoke to a tour rep that said Kuchar is +3/4" over and Robert Karlson +1" over. Other than that he said he sees most std to 1/2" over

[drbonesvt]

[quote name='Masse1369' timestamp='1385655420' post='8221372']
I talked with a guy at my club about fittings who used to be a top Zevo fitter and what he said made a lot of sense. The length of the club is more important than lie angle. I play my irons around 3/8" over (38.125" 5 iron). Lie boards truly don't matter to me because I hit a STD lie club out on the toe and I hit a something five degrees upright out on the toe side of the sole. We agreed each club has to be fit individually. He said he liked to take a sharpie and draw a straight line on the back of a ball. Hit a few shots with each club and look at the mark it leaves on the face. If it tilts left than bend it a little upright and vice versa. Everybody swings each club differently. I sweep my longer irons and I get progressively steeper going through the set. I'm 6'1.5" barefoot medium to broad shoulders and wear a 34/35 sleeve length shirt. I'm getting a set of the new Pro Combos and am actually going to do a write up with how I fit myself and I think a lot of people will learn something because of how simple it really is. I play to a +2 and am a better than average ball striker when I'm able to play/practice...
[/quote]

What where your final specs

[cxx]

I'm not sure any of this is as cut and dry as represented here and shorter people need similar lengths and flatter lies. To suggest that they need shorter clubs and should have the same angles as taller players is not right. They would have to generate much higher angular speeds to achieve similar club head speeds. The idea that address position and impact position must be the same is silly. There are many tour players that don't fit this "picture perfect" mold, especially those that are non-standard size. The idea that someone should play much longer clubs because they are taller will result in someone hitting a 7 iron with the same consistency as a "normal" 4 iron. There have been a million threads about cutting down the driver to be able to hit it consistently on the club face.

The one thing that does constrain your choices is the availability of shafts and heads to accommodate extra long clubs. The increase in shaft length makes the shaft play considerably softer. 2 inches can make an x100 play like a r300. Maybe someone will make equipment to fit that 1% on the high and low side of the curve but I wouldn't hold my breath. It took a while for the development of specialty equipment for long drives, including super stiff shafts playable at maximum length. There are no long drive wedge contests.

[bobcat]

[quote name='webber' timestamp='1389035555' post='8409499']
Spoke to a tour rep that said Kuchar is +3/4" over and Robert Karlson +1" over. Other than that he said he sees most std to 1/2" over
[/quote]

Keep in mind that Kuchar is using 95 gram graphite iron shafts...(Aerotech SteelFiber i-95).

[Klap]

Longer shafts may result in better posture but can make a club behave terrible. Heads and shafts are not designed for this.

I am 7foot tall. According to the Ping static fitting tables I had to play at least +2" with 6deg up. . The s56 set in these specs feels great when setting up behind the ball. Trouble starts when I move the club. Those clubs are E7 swingweight! That makes it very hard to hit with feel.

With close to standard clubs my posture is far from ideal but the clubs are much easier to hit. It would be great if one manufacturer would design some clubs for taller players and take weight and balance into account... I searched hard and long and came to the conclusion the proper clubs for 7foot tall golfers don't really exist.

[LCP]

[quote name='Klap' timestamp='1393632325' post='8767962']
Longer shafts may result in better posture but can make a club behave terrible. Heads and shafts are not designed for this.

I am 7foot tall. According to the Ping static fitting tables I had to play at least +2" with 6deg up. . The s56 set in these specs feels great when setting up behind the ball. Trouble starts when I move the club. Those clubs are E7 swingweight! That makes it very hard to hit with feel.

With close to standard clubs my posture is far from ideal but the clubs are much easier to hit. It would be great if one manufacturer would design some clubs for taller players and take weight and balance into account... I searched hard and long and came to the conclusion the proper clubs for 7foot tall golfers don't really exist.
[/quote]

I'm 7 inches shorter than you, but also spec'd clubs at +2". You probably really need clubs that are +4", but yeah about +2" or 2.5" is as long as anyone can really go with mass-produced clubs. On the Ping i20's, I also spec'd the swing weight light (asked for as close to D5 as possible). Ping got them down to D8 in my +2" clubs (8i - wedge) and D7 in my +1.75" clubs (4i - 7i). Send them back to be re-swingweighted if you can. The custom tuning port inserts in the i20 really help getting things light. I think they vary from 3 grams to 28 grams if I recall correctly.

[Mr Fade]

[quote name='LCP' timestamp='1393634066' post='8768094']
[quote name='Klap' timestamp='1393632325' post='8767962']
Longer shafts may result in better posture but can make a club behave terrible. Heads and shafts are not designed for this.

I am 7foot tall. According to the Ping static fitting tables I had to play at least +2" with 6deg up. . The s56 set in these specs feels great when setting up behind the ball. Trouble starts when I move the club. Those clubs are E7 swingweight! That makes it very hard to hit with feel.

With close to standard clubs my posture is far from ideal but the clubs are much easier to hit. It would be great if one manufacturer would design some clubs for taller players and take weight and balance into account... I searched hard and long and came to the conclusion the proper clubs for 7foot tall golfers don't really exist.
[/quote]

I'm 7 inches shorter than you, but also spec'd clubs at +2". You probably really need clubs that are +4", but yeah about +2" or 2.5" is as long as anyone can really go with mass-produced clubs. On the Ping i20's, I also spec'd the swing weight light (asked for as close to D5 as possible). Ping got them down to D8 in my +2" clubs (8i - wedge) and D7 in my +1.75" clubs (4i - 7i). Send them back to be re-swingweighted if you can. The custom tuning port inserts in the i20 really help getting things light. I think they vary from 3 grams to 28 grams if I recall correctly.
[/quote]

I am 6"5 and my irons are at +2", i.e. a 40" 5 iron and a 37.5" PW. The irons are MOI matched with the longest iron at D3 and the PW at D5.5. Working with a custom clubmaker instead of buying from the OEM´s is crucial for us tall players.

[Klap]

[quote name='LCP' timestamp='1393634066' post='8768094']
[quote name='Klap' timestamp='1393632325' post='8767962']
Longer shafts may result in better posture but can make a club behave terrible. Heads and shafts are not designed for this.

I am 7foot tall. According to the Ping static fitting tables I had to play at least +2" with 6deg up. . The s56 set in these specs feels great when setting up behind the ball. Trouble starts when I move the club. Those clubs are E7 swingweight! That makes it very hard to hit with feel.

With close to standard clubs my posture is far from ideal but the clubs are much easier to hit. It would be great if one manufacturer would design some clubs for taller players and take weight and balance into account... I searched hard and long and came to the conclusion the proper clubs for 7foot tall golfers don't really exist.
[/quote]

I'm 7 inches shorter than you, but also spec'd clubs at +2". You probably really need clubs that are +4", but yeah about +2" or 2.5" is as long as anyone can really go with mass-produced clubs. On the Ping i20's, I also spec'd the swing weight light (asked for as close to D5 as possible). Ping got them down to D8 in my +2" clubs (8i - wedge) and D7 in my +1.75" clubs (4i - 7i). Send them back to be re-swingweighted if you can. The custom tuning port inserts in the i20 really help getting things light. I think they vary from 3 grams to 28 grams if I recall correctly.
[/quote]

I have to try this out. The insert weight in the s56 is over 20 grams, I once measured it. Took it out and the face didn't close anymore. But maybe somewhere in between is the answer. (Wonder why they didn't think of this when they sent away the E7 swing weights.)

I've got a set of Titleist AP2's with lighter heads and shafts (PXI) coming that is quite a bit longer with the short irons and less so in the long ones. The Titleist representative really made an effort to get the set right. At Ping the reactions have always been more like "Don't bother us, this is too complicated.."

[rilory]

I'm 6'5" - Weigh 320 lbs. - never broken 100. All my clubs are different lengths. (At least at the beginning of the round.) Hope this helps

[Sean2]

They say taller players have an advantage because of a wider swing arc, etc., but I think we are also at a disadvantage since we do not have the consistency of Tour players a lot more can go wrong with our swings...not only because our swings are "longer", but because our equipment is too (I am also +1-inch).

[tyorke1]

good topic but let's talk what length is standard and is it 1/2 longer from a 37.75 5 iron or 38in 5 iron , I use to always play 1/2 longer from a 37.75 5iron but now I play 1/2 longer from a 38in 5 iron. I am thinking of going back to 1/2 longer from a 37.75 standard. I am 6'2 and I think 36.5 wrist to floor but I have never really believed in this measurement . My miss with an iron is a heel hook. Yes this is a shot

[LukeDonaldsTiger]

This thread makes me nervous. I thought I was set for length and lie, but the points brought up here make me rethink...

Re. what is standard: asked myself the same thing. Mizuno’s current MP line is 0.25” longer than standard, this makes a difference.

 

I’d love to have the TXG setup with a GC Quad and stickers on the irons to check dynamic lie angle after every shot. This would be ideal. Have to find a fitter who has this.

[driveandputtmachine]

I am NOT a club builder/fitter or anything anywhere near those. I did however get fitted by Dana Upshaw earlier in my "career" and I still find he is one of the best I have ever heard of or seen. Of course I have not been to where ever Howard lives, because reading his posts make my head hurt.

I know two things. I stand with the same posture every time I put a club in my hand. The only thing that moves the ball farther away from me is club length. Dana showed this to me when we started playing around with my 1/4 increments in my irons. Lie angle does not change my posture and how I address the ball. Long story short, a poor shaft swap by a local company with the maxfli VHL irons ended up giving me over length short irons and shorter longer irons. After checking my strike pattern and delivery Dana looked at my irons and mapped them out. This is when we discovered my issue. For whatever reason they worked. I am 6'1" per my doctor, I have crazy wide shoulders and yet only a 30" inseam, stupid long torso. So we worked off of a 7 iron at 36.75" and go up 1/4" and down 1/4 to PW and then they are all 36" PW and down. My Driving iron is all over the place.

Lie angle only affected my starting ball flight direction. You can argue why that happened, but changing lie did not affect my strike location. So whether it made me swing more outside or more inside or the face closed I am not exactly sure. I know too upright and the ball tends to start left and then goes farther left for me. Too flat and the ball tends to start right and go farther right for me. My preferred shape is a cut with everything.

I have my original specs from that fitting with Dana, and since he is retired, even though my swing has changed since then, I normally start out in that area and use my Mitchell to tweak my lie angles. Once I start hitting them well, more often than not I am pretty close to those specs from Dana.

So from a guy who TINKERS WAY TOO MUCH, this whole fit for length and THEN lie angle makes perfect sense, because it is the way the best fitter I have ever met in person did it, and because of him I do it that way too.

[wely324]

I am 6’1” and had my clubs measured recently. They were +.75” and 1.5-2* flat. My 3-5 irons were +7/8”.

I did the lie angle test with the black line on the ball and it showed up that my lie angles were flat. Also my wedges are stock length and lie, and my wedge game has been terrible and the clubs feel short.

so I am thinking of going with +.75” length and standard lie angles and matching my wedges to that. Regardless of the flat lie angles my ball striking is very good so as for the length of the club and swing weight of D8, I few I should stick with those specs.

I was maybe thinking of going to +1/2” length but my concern is the wedges being to short??

[TiScape]

First of all. Props for rejuvenating an 8 year old thread! 🙌🏼😂

As others have mentioned, wrist to floor is going to dictate club length more so than height. I’m 6’4” with a 38.5” wrist to floor. I play my irons at what ever equates to a 38.75” 5 iron. It use to be 1” over, but now most OEMs standard 5i is 38” so it’s 3/4” over. 

[kenstl]

On 5/2/2021 at 3:55 PM, TiScape said:

First of all. Props for rejuvenating an 8 year old thread! 🙌🏼😂

As others have mentioned, wrist to floor is going to dictate club length more so than height. I’m 6’4” with a 38.5” wrist to floor. I play my irons at what ever equates to a 38.75” 5 iron. It use to be 1” over, but now most OEMs standard 5i is 38” so it’s 3/4” over. 

Agree.   Club length creep over the years makes this more difficult than it needs to be with regards to prior "standards" on fitting with WTF, WT Knuckle type equations.  Many of the Mfg have different "standards" on length, and if you get graphite, many increase it again in an effort allowing them to mass manufacturer stock sets of clubs.  It is getting better though.  Mizuno offers A and B weights, Callaway on many lines has weight adjustable screws or plates that can help keep swing weights in line on longer shafts.  

 

I am a little over 6'4" and also 38.5" WTF and 34" WT Knuckle.   On the WT/Knuckle, they base it off of a 37" 6 iron and add 1/4" for every inch over 28".  In my case, it would put me in a 38.5" 6 Iron and 39" 5 iron.  I tend to follow Tom Wishon's thought process on club fitting.  At my WTF and height, he has me +1 but goes further to state 38" 7 iron 3 deg up.  

 

For Mizuno and Callaway, its 1" over.  On Ping, its only 3/4" over.   Over a full set of irons, there is 3"-3.5" difference from the bottom to top end of the bag, so getting hung up on an exact length of one club is a little crazy considering they all vary.  It kind of makes an argument for SL golf clubs if there is one true perfect length for a player.  I do think most of us play certain lengths because that is what the industry gives us, although that has been changing over the past few years.  

 

I like Rybo's thought process of fitting for tall golfers, fit short iron length for comfort and going from there.  

Edited September 18, 2022 by kenstl

[Jay T]

On 11/14/2012 at 4:43 PM, rybo said:

[quote name='J13' timestamp='1352933774' post='5934953']
[quote name='HoosierMizuno' timestamp='1352920179' post='5933805']
if i hit a a standard length club on lie board and was suggested to go 2* upright, if my next set i order is 1/2"+ should i keep the 2* upright or should that be changed back to standard now that i'd have extra length. i know i can remeasure once i have my clubs, but if i order i'd like to try to get as close to possible.
[/quote]

For every 1/2" you add in length it adds 1* upright. So you would add the 1/2" and then bend the irons only 1* upright.
[/quote]

It's stuff like this that shows the misconceptions for fitting the tall golfer!! Every 1/2" [u]does not[/u] make a club more upright for the golfer who needs longer clubs!! If a club is too short, it's too short, sure you can make it kinda work by making it more upright but posture and comfort will suffer. It's truly a band-aid fix and never properly addresses the length issue. Maintaining posture and proper swing path is impossible if you are hunched over with a ball that is too close. Take two clubs both have 62* lie angles one has a length of 37" the other is 38". Did the lie angle change, NO! Length and lie are separate fitting variables. Length fits the body and posture, lie fits the swing. This is why fitting for length comes prior to fitting for lie angle.

From my experiences those golfers who needs longer clubs usually will have the best performance with lie angles that are standard to the flat side. It really makes no sense to make a club longer and then more upright. Well it is if you want to force an over the top swing and a steep angle of attack. Hence the reason why most tall players are diggers and not sweepers. Flattening out the lie angle forces the golfer to use a proper inside out swing that is not so steep. For you fitters out there when fitting tall golfers be very accommodating fitting for length and be stingy as hell when increasing the lie angle.