DIY Driver tune up / DIY fitting

[Howard_Jones]

3 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

Did the fitting with PXG and had unexpected and frustrating feedback from the fitter.

 

They we’re pretty adamant that I shouldn’t shorten the shaft. Not because of a loss of club head speed but because they felt I was hitting too much towards the toe and thus with too little spin when using the shorter 44.5 and 45” shafts.

 

I don’t fully understand how shaft length pushes the strike location towards the toe. Wouldn’t I, with practice, just start to address the ball a tiny bit closer to compensate for the shorter shaft and then still strike it more centrally?

 

I want the shorter shaft to make it easier to get a tighter, more consistent strike pattern. But not if it comes at the cost of  all my drives being toe-y low-spinning hooks.

Where is the numbers ? where is the photos of impact patterns? What weight tuning of shaft/head was tried? 

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

I don’t fully understand how shaft length pushes the strike location towards the toe. Wouldn’t I, with practice, just start to address the ball a tiny bit closer to compensate for the shorter shaft and then still strike it more centrally?

 

Most people would.

 

My guess is more likely a weight issue than a length issue.

 

Did you add weight to the head when you were doing the testing choking up?    How much weight did they add after cutting?

[Jlocke22]

On 1/7/2022 at 11:54 AM, Howard_Jones said:

Just mark the grip, like 0.5" shorter or what ever, and add lead tape untill it feels right and works good, and forget everything about SW points or math, YOU are "the real scale", YOU are the one who shall like it and play it, so dont even think of "rules" here, its only 1 thats valid in the end, what ever works for YOU.

PS your smash factor is still not optimized
Ball speed / club speed = smash

Average 170 ball speed / average club speed 117.5 = 1.44
Max 172 ball speed / max club speed 119 = 1.44 again....

Low club speed 116 x 1.5 = 174 ball speed
Average club speed 117.5 x smash 1.5 = 176.5 ball speed...
Max club speed 119 x 1.5 = 178.5...

Simply slow down a bit and focus on impact, it will keep your ball speed ABOVE 172 who is the max you got now, so dont focus so much on club speed, improve impact and let the club head do the job, it will improve both distance and dispersion, and you save energy

 

On 1/7/2022 at 1:16 PM, Jlocke22 said:

Howard - Thank you for the feedback and writing the original guide. It gives me something to focus on in terms of just finding the right feel and less on numbers when it is in terms of the swing weight/cutting/head weight/etc. However, it gives me a much better idea in terms of impact of how much I am leaving on the table and how much better I can optimize my setup! I will stay on the path and hopefully report back some great news in the future! 

 

Howard - looking for a bit of expertise on my Trackman data that I will link. I did get Gamer dialed in on my end as well as I could but ball ball was still doing some crazy stuff and I would probably contribute that to low spin, low launch, and SIM head is starting to flatten out/concave a bit just high and just right of sweet spot. I am going through warranty process now. So I bit the bullet and went and got a "fitting" done at the best place within 90 miles or so of me and had X-Stiff options to try. 

 

Gamer - 8* HZRDUS Smoke Yellow 70g 6.5 at D5.5SW 45"

Data - Stealth/Stealth Plus 9* turned to 9.5* with Atmos Black 7X at D6SW 45.5"

 

Variables - Gamer swings were first driver swings of day after iron warmup. Atmos/Stealth Plus Swings was 3rd combo I tested and Atmos/Stealth combo was the last of I believe 11 combos I tested and was exhausted as I think we were close to 90 driver swings in. The Atmos Black 7X had the best tip stability/response for me and best dispersion of all. Ball Position/Exhaustion may have lead to the slightly negative AOA at the end. I am also working on lessening my in to out path a bit. CHS topped out at 123 once and hit 122 several times in middle of fitting on shafts that were just not the right profile but data is controlled swings for impact. 

 

Data -  Trackman Data

 

Looking at the data, is there anything that jumps out or questions/things I should try or ask? I would like to try both again fresh but based on your knowledge wanted to see if you notice anything. My end goal here is to tighten dispersion and avoid my miss which is an over smothered hook left. 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Jlocke22

[Howard_Jones]

Then numbers indicate that your energy level was low.

The differences in club path from club to club is large, so is face to path.
Dispersion is best for club #1, and that club also has the highest potential (low PTR value now)

The question is WHY was path and face to path better on club #1?, and why was PTR value variable and in general lower?

[Jlocke22]

8 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Then numbers indicate that your energy level was low.

The differences in club path from club to club is large, so is face to path.
Dispersion is best for club #1, and that club also has the highest potential (low PTR value now)

The question is WHY was path and face to path better on club #1?, and why was PTR value variable and in general lower?

Yeah I was dead tired at the end on the tightest dispersion combo. I was trying not to pay attention to numbers very much as I was hitting then retrieving ball in between shots so it wasn’t just rapid fire. Maybe it was subconsciously on club path. Fitter also did mention half way through my takeaway was starting to get very shut. So I stopped half way through and started doing some “check takeaways” like Justin Thomas does every few swings and maybe that helped influence a better path. 

[Luckydutch]

On 2/8/2022 at 10:12 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

Most people would.

 

My guess is more likely a weight issue than a length issue.

 

Did you add weight to the head when you were doing the testing choking up?    How much weight did they add after cutting?

 

No weight was added at all, we just tested the same shaft in a shorter length.

 

I will add a bit of extra weight back when I buy the driver because I opt for mid-size grips but the fitter didn't feel there was a need to actually alter the head weight.

 

The problem I had is, I'm not great with driver so when I swapped to the shorter shaft, I probably didn't automatically adjust my setup to accommodate it. That would probably require more practice with it than I had time for in the fitting.

 

I just don't really believe what he said about the shorter shaft causing me to hit off the toe. There are people my height that play with 44" or 44.5" shafts and they don't all strike it off the toe every time. Presumably they just stand a little closer than they would with a 45.5"?

[Stuart_G]

2 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

 

No weight was added at all, we just tested the same shaft in a shorter length.

 

Which means that the swing weight was significantly lower than what you're used to.

 

 

2 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

I will add a bit of extra weight back when I buy the driver because I opt for mid-size grips but the fitter didn't feel there was a need to actually alter the head weight.

 

Don't confuse or mix up static weight with swing weight.  When cutting down a shaft, the loss in static weight is trivial.  There is nothing really to get back in that respect.  So if you go with mid-size grips, you'll likely end up increasing the static weight.

 

Swing weight or head weight management is very different thing.  Both can effect the heft feel although usually in different ways - or different parts of the swing.  BUT all three - head weight, total weight, and length - all have to be synced together.  If one changes, chances are some of the others will have to change as well for them to continue to be a good fit (or to find a good fit) and work well together.

 

Doesn't sound like a very good fitter.   The only way to know if adding head weight would help (or not) is to actually do it and test the results with different amounts of head weight.  There is no other way for him to know - it's way too subjective to rely on experiences with any other player.

 

But unfortunately, that's not uncommon.  Swing weight is one of the most frequently overlooked club spec in the vast majority of "fittings" (especially retail store or pro shop fittings).

 

 

2 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

The problem I had is, I'm not great with driver so when I swapped to the shorter shaft, I probably didn't automatically adjust my setup to accommodate it. That would probably require more practice with it than I had time for in the fitting.

 

Possible but a low percentage.  You have a full bag full of clubs of all different lengths and I'll bet you don't have too much trouble adjusting to those different lengths - without even having to think about it.

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by Stuart_G

[vernon]

Maybe the best thread on the site.  Thanks Howard.

[Howard_Jones]

7 hours ago, Luckydutch said:

 

No weight was added at all, we just tested the same shaft in a shorter length.

 

I will add a bit of extra weight back when I buy the driver because I opt for mid-size grips but the fitter didn't feel there was a need to actually alter the head weight.

 

He did not feel? was he the fitting object or the club fitter? what a a complete joke of a man, no wonder the fitting business has a BAD reputation....he did not feel....the joke of the day, but not a funny one.

[968cab]

So a person dials in his driver using this outstanding guide…

 

Is the shaft length transferable to other heads?  Or would you have to start over?  I’m strictly talking about keeping length the same…not even changing the adapter or  brand.  Grab a new head, insert the shaft knowing the length was/is good, and go to work sorting the swing weight out? 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2022 by 968cab

[Howard_Jones]

7 hours ago, 968cab said:

So a person dials in his driver using this outstanding guide…

 

Is the shaft length transferable to other heads?  Or would you have to start over?  I’m strictly talking about keeping length the same…not even changing the adapter or  brand.  Grab a new head, insert the shaft knowing the length was/is good, and go to work sorting the swing weight out? 

 

 

I cant see any reasons for why it should not work if play lenght remains as before (same BBGM)

Edited February 11, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, 968cab said:

So a person dials in his driver using this outstanding guide…

 

Is the shaft length transferable to other heads?  Or would you have to start over?  I’m strictly talking about keeping length the same…not even changing the adapter or  brand.  Grab a new head, insert the shaft knowing the length was/is good, and go to work sorting the swing weight out? 

 

 

 

Just don't assume the playing length wont change when doing that.  Some (most) brands have different head models that use the same adapter that will give you different playing lengths when switching heads like that.   Usually the difference isn't more than 1/4" - but that's enough to effect the swing weight.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Stuart_G

[Luckydutch]

17 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Which means that the swing weight was significantly lower than what you're used to.

 

 

 

Don't confuse or mix up static weight with swing weight.  When cutting down a shaft, the loss in static weight is trivial.  There is nothing really to get back in that respect.  So if you go with mid-size grips, you'll likely end up increasing the static weight.

 

Swing weight or head weight management is very different thing.  Both can effect the heft feel although usually in different ways - or different parts of the swing.  BUT all three - head weight, total weight, and length - all have to be synced together.  If one changes, chances are some of the others will have to change as well for them to continue to be a good fit (or to find a good fit) and work well together.

 

Doesn't sound like a very good fitter.   The only way to know if adding head weight would help (or not) is to actually do it and test the results with different amounts of head weight.  There is no other way for him to know - it's way too subjective to rely on experiences with any other player.

 

But unfortunately, that's not uncommon.  Swing weight is one of the most frequently overlooked club spec in the vast majority of "fittings" (especially retail store or pro shop fittings).

 

 

 

Possible but a low percentage.  You have a full bag full of clubs of all different lengths and I'll bet you don't have too much trouble adjusting to those different lengths - without even having to think about it.

 

 

 

 

Understood about the difference between static and swing weight. That's helpful, thanks.

 

Perhaps it was just too difficult for the fitter to delve into these details with me because my strike was all over the place. Perhaps I'm just making excuses for them.

 

Generally, my experience with fitting in the UK has been underwhelming and speaking to my friends that also got into golf in the last few years, they've found the same. A lot of the fitters are just getting you to try a few of the latest models, 'fit' you for whichever the most expensive model you hit a few decent balls in, throw you in a stock shaft with the right flex for you and send you on your way.

 

Perhaps when I get down to a low-teens handicap, it'd be worth me paying for a specialist fitter that charges just for the fitting itself.

 

Anyhow, with regards to this driver, I discovered that PXG builders can edit the swing weight for you: https://www.pxg.com/apac/about/news/is-there-a-standard-shaft-length-for-a-pxg-driver

 

So I called them and got them to add a note to my order to add the swing weight that was lost with the 1/2 inch shorter shaft back into the head. I'll probably never know whether they actually did it when the thing arrives but if they do, I should get something that feels similar to the standard spec but with the slightly shorter shaft making it a little easier to use.

 

It's almost certainly not going to be 100% optimal but thanks to the advice here, I'll at least end up with something closer to a good fit than if I'd just gone for the standard shaft without thinking about it. Thanks!

[Stuart_G]

4 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

Perhaps it was just too difficult for the fitter to delve into these details with me because my strike was all over the place.

 

No, that would not be a valid excuse.  In fact it's really the opposite.  The poor strike is really a key indicator that some aspect of the fit was likely way off and really should have been addressed.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

Generally, my experience with fitting in the UK has been underwhelming and speaking to my friends that also got into golf in the last few years, they've found the same. A lot of the fitters are just getting you to try a few of the latest models, 'fit' you for whichever the most expensive model you hit a few decent balls in, throw you in a stock shaft with the right flex for you and send you on your way.

That's a fairly common approach here in the US as well, particularly at big box retail stores.   The problem is that anyone who sells clubs and has a launch monitor can call what they do a "fitting".   A proper fitting takes a highly skilled and trained individual and those people are few and far between.   But since the vast majority of the customers don't know any better themselves, it's easy to "get away with it".

 

 

4 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

Perhaps when I get down to a low-teens handicap, it'd be worth me paying for a specialist fitter that charges just for the fitting itself.

 

A high quality fitting will benefit the mid/high handicapper a lot more than a low handicapper.  The better players tend to be better 1) at "fitting themselves" and gravitate to better fitting equipment automatically even if they don't understand why.  2) they also can do a better job of adding compensations to their swing to mitigate the effects of less then ideal fitting equipment.

 

 

4 minutes ago, Luckydutch said:

So I called them and got them to add a note to my order to add the swing weight that was lost with the 1/2 inch shorter shaft back into the head.

 

If you go back and read the first post again, you'll see that that's not necessarily the best approach either.   1)  you were never fit for that original swing weight and 2) any time there is a major change (like length or shaft weight) you have to throw out the old swing weight value and go through the process of refitting for head weight.

 

The best approach is to have them NOT compensate for the lost swing weight and then just get a roll of lead tape and do the work yourself following the directions in the first post of this thread.

 

That is the whole point of this thread - to give people the tools and knowledge to help fit themselves.

 

[70sinsight]

Great thread @Howard_Jones. I recently got the 9* PING 425LST head. It is my first adjustable driver head and it comes with a 17g tungsten weight that can be placed closer to the heel, neutral and closer to the toe. When doing the pen test for COG, would I leave the weight in neutral or keep it in the position I'll play it in on course? Thanks for the help!

[Howard_Jones]

6 hours ago, 70sinsight said:

Great thread @Howard_Jones. I recently got the 9* PING 425LST head. It is my first adjustable driver head and it comes with a 17g tungsten weight that can be placed closer to the heel, neutral and closer to the toe. When doing the pen test for COG, would I leave the weight in neutral or keep it in the position I'll play it in on course? Thanks for the help!

Its the settings we play it that has the most interest, but i would have measured all 3 options (max draw - neutral - max fade). The more directly COG is behind the ball/impact position, the higher will our power transfer be (PTR / smash factor).

Edited April 10, 2022 by Howard_Jones

[70sinsight]

Great. Thanks!

[70sinsight]

7 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Its the settings we play it that has the most interest, but i would have measured all 3 options (max draw - neutral - max fade). The more directly COG is behind the ball/impact position, the higher will our power transfer be (PTR / smash factor).

Thought this was interesting how little the 17g weight changed COG. Blue is draw position, red neutral and yellow fade.

[Golferguy209]

Looking for some driver shaft advice. Currently playing diamana d+ white board in 75g and contemplating switching to a 65g shaft. My Hope behind this is to gain more swing and ball speed. Any advice on if this is a good idea?

[Howard_Jones]

4 minutes ago, Golferguy209 said:

Looking for some driver shaft advice. Currently playing diamana d+ white board in 75g and contemplating switching to a 65g shaft. My Hope behind this is to gain more swing and ball speed. Any advice on if this is a good idea?

Only testing can tell whats right, but 75 grams for a driver shaft is in the heavy end today, so in theory there could be more speed to get for a lower weight, but only if we can keep PTR value at a high ratio. Higher club speed alone is no good if we cant improve ball speed, that will only make dispersion worse, and nobody wants that.

[Nihonsei75]

2 hours ago, Golferguy209 said:

Looking for some driver shaft advice. Currently playing diamana d+ white board in 75g and contemplating switching to a 65g shaft. My Hope behind this is to gain more swing and ball speed. Any advice on if this is a good idea?

What Howard said! I haven't tested driver but I'm going the other other way after getting better results increasing my 3wd and Hy up one class of weight in the same heads. I'm waiting for delivery but it's also a new head and diff loft too. Let us know how it works out!

[johnnyjumpjump]

For a golf/science nerd that likes technical details reading this entire thread is illuminating.  I plan to reread it and work on applying the concepts.  Thank you Howard for this (and other) "deep dive" information.

[D0ch0l1d4y]

I was struggling HEAVILY with the driver at the end of last year and start of this year. Just no speed, couldn't hit the center, yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

Went back through this thread and "re-fit" myself; most importantly - actually tested for VCOG and sharpied a line on there. Was consistently contacting BELOW the VCOG. Teed it up a bit higher, started hitting the smiley face and we're back off to the races. Really want to get on a monitor to see what the real numbers are - but high bombs that just never seemed to come back down (comparatively speaking of course).

 

@Howard_Jones Thanks again for this thread and your wealth of knowledge!

[ezra76]

Just finding this from a link on another thread. I have a Callaway driver I cut down to play 45". It already started at a d2 from factory specs. I wanted to get it up to like d3 at least as I hit heavier swingweights better. I had 4 strips of lead tape that I measured out to about 7g total on there. I was hitting it center or slightly inside and lots of nice powerfades. I started hitting it more left recently with some pulls that perplexed me as I thought they were solid cut swings. Low and behold all the tape had fallen off the driver. 

 

Last round I put 1 strip on the weight (GBB Epic) and another large one on from weight to heel. I was unable to hit a controlled cut but actually was able to hit a baby draw, more of a pull-draw or perhaps just a slight (like 3yds.) pull-hook. 

 

I think I need to get on the range with the tape, put some spray or impact tape on there and see what gets me back to either slightly inside or nuetral. 

 

On another note I've been hitting my irons very well but have the tendency to be slightly outside and more toe misses on the 5 and 6iron than higher clubs. I have PX 6.0's and the length is a little short compared to my old irons (1/4"). I've been thinking about soft stepping the set as I could pull everything and not use or reshaft the iron. Also debating on soft stepping just the 5iron and 6iron since I hit the 7-Pw very well. .

[ob1soccer]

just wondering if a study was ever done comparing results hitting a driver at 45 inches vs a driver that is 44.5 inches. All things being equal with the same shaft and Driver head just the difference of a half an inch.

How much distance is gained/lost

Any change in dispersion or spin?

[Howard_Jones]

7 hours ago, ob1soccer said:

just wondering if a study was ever done comparing results hitting a driver at 45 inches vs a driver that is 44.5 inches. All things being equal with the same shaft and Driver head just the difference of a half an inch.

How much distance is gained/lost

Any change in dispersion or spin?

That would be very individual, and depend on the players level and his ability to adapt to changes, so we would have seen numbers from "next to noting to huge differences".

[Howard_Jones]

On 5/8/2022 at 8:48 PM, D0ch0l1d4y said:

I was struggling HEAVILY with the driver at the end of last year and start of this year. Just no speed, couldn't hit the center, yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

Went back through this thread and "re-fit" myself; most importantly - actually tested for VCOG and sharpied a line on there. Was consistently contacting BELOW the VCOG. Teed it up a bit higher, started hitting the smiley face and we're back off to the races. Really want to get on a monitor to see what the real numbers are - but high bombs that just never seemed to come back down (comparatively speaking of course).

 

@Howard_Jones Thanks again for this thread and your wealth of knowledge!

The pleasure is all mine, i really wanted to help you all to make it on your own, and feedback like yours tells me i made it, but tell us, did you get on a LM to see some numbers?

 

[Phabs]

Jesus there’s so much good info in this thread. 

[D0ch0l1d4y]

On 7/27/2022 at 3:52 AM, Howard_Jones said:

The pleasure is all mine, i really wanted to help you all to make it on your own, and feedback like yours tells me i made it, but tell us, did you get on a LM to see some numbers?

 

 

I never did. Then we had some family priorities and I had to sell all my fun stuff. I'll certainly be using this process again when it comes time to re-fill the bag with good gear.

[Primo1868]

Hey @Howard_Jones (pardon me if I missed it) are the original graphs posted in 2013-2016 showing up? 
 

I can’t see any graphs to see any relationship from the “original” posts. Any chance you can re send them? 
 

Thanks!