Varner ruling.

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Comments

  • HitEmTrueHitEmTrue North TexasMembers Posts: 6,559 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    No, you can’t carry a damaged club onto the course and repair it.



    And in the situations where a club is damaged during play and may be repaired, you CAN’T replace the head, shaft, or grip.









  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,183 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    So to summarize so that I can lock this down in my head.



    You may repair a club . ( yes?)



    Which includes adding a shaft to a driver head ( yes?)



    So it is not illegal to use the wrench on course to repair. But is illegal to adjust (yes?). And repairing that driver apparently cannot include using the original shaft ? (Yes?)



    That’s where I fall off the wagon. How can I repair a driver but not use any of its parts ?



    The way I see it. He carried his damaged driver , and had a head brought to him . His mistake was asking about it before hand (yes?). That took the damaged club out of the bag and then became a mental gymnastics routine of who’s on first ?



    One way trip to crazy town trying to make this follow logic.
    It’s a bit unfair for you to inaccurately describe a series of rules and then expect your inaccuracy to follow logic.
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Lol. No worries. So the clarification is that you really cannot repair a damaged driver on course. A caved face and or broken shaft being the more likely damages it can receive.



    Before someone says. I used the app and then googled it and tried to read it and have still yet to find it in detail to say you cannot replace the head etc. this is part of what I find so frustrating. I can never seem to locate the rule in question in its entirety. Only excerpts.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    HitEmTrue wrote:


    No, you can’t carry a damaged club onto the course and repair it.



    And in the situations where a club is damaged during play and may be repaired, you CAN’T replace the head, shaft, or grip.


    Is this new for 2019 or always ?



    I seem to recall Hideki replacing driver heads for a playoff. Maybe the memorial (?) one year ?
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    HitEmTrue wrote:


    No, you can’t carry a damaged club onto the course and repair it.



    And in the situations where a club is damaged during play and may be repaired, you CAN’T replace the head, shaft, or grip.


    Is this new for 2019 or always ?



    I seem to recall Hideki replacing driver heads for a playoff. Maybe the memorial (?) one year ?
    A playoff is a different round. Remember Phil using that to his advantage and switching clubs for the playoff based on the holes being played?
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  • ShilgyShilgy PhoenixMembers Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Lol. No worries. So the clarification is that you really cannot repair a damaged driver on course. A caved face and or broken shaft being the more likely damages it can receive.



    Before someone says. I used the app and then googled it and tried to read it and have still yet to find it in detail to say you cannot replace the head etc. this is part of what I find so frustrating. I can never seem to locate the rule in question in its entirety. Only excerpts.
    You can repair a club, not do total replacement surgery. So if you bend your putter in anger, or falling down a hill as you are prone to do, you can bend it back and still use it. You cannot get it reshafted.
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  • Colin LColin L Members Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:
    You can repair a club, not do total replacement surgery. So if you bend your putter in anger, or falling down a hill as you are prone to do, you can bend it back and still use it. You cannot get it reshafted.




    The reference for that is 14.1a(2) I have highlighted the relevant text:



    The player may ........ have the club repaired by restoring it as nearly as possible to its condition before the damage happened during the round or while play was stopped, while still using the original grip, shaft and clubhead.
  • SawgrassSawgrass Members Posts: 15,183 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Lol. No worries. So the clarification is that you really cannot repair a damaged driver on course. A caved face and or broken shaft being the more likely damages it can receive.



    Before someone says. I used the app and then googled it and tried to read it and have still yet to find it in detail to say you cannot replace the head etc. this is part of what I find so frustrating. I can never seem to locate the rule in question in its entirety. Only excerpts.
    Is your app set to show the full rules? IIR, you get a choice of expert mode or something when you set it up.



    From 4.1:

    Have the club repaired by restoring it as nearly as possible to its condition before the damage happened during the round or while play was stopped, while still using the original grip, shaft and clubhead. But in doing so:

    » The player must not unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a), and

    » Any damage that existed before the round must not be repaired.

  • BiggErnBiggErn Members Posts: 2,535 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Shilgy wrote:


    Lol. No worries. So the clarification is that you really cannot repair a damaged driver on course. A caved face and or broken shaft being the more likely damages it can receive.



    Before someone says. I used the app and then googled it and tried to read it and have still yet to find it in detail to say you cannot replace the head etc. this is part of what I find so frustrating. I can never seem to locate the rule in question in its entirety. Only excerpts.
    You can repair a club, not do total replacement surgery. So if you bend your putter in anger, or falling down a hill as you are prone to do, you can bend it back and still use it. You cannot get it reshafted.




    The official on tv said you could start with 13 and add the 14th after the round had started.
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Halebopp wrote:


    That guy is all over the place claiming it was a breach to assemble it on the course and then basically correcting himself. The player must've also made a stroke with the club to incur the penalty. Simply toying around with the parts isn't a violation, like the person claims.




    Is this Russel the same guy who they interviewed in the booth?




    I didn't watch any golf yesterday so I wouldn't know.
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  • Colin LColin L Members Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    BiggErn wrote:

    Shilgy wrote:


    Lol. No worries. So the clarification is that you really cannot repair a damaged driver on course. A caved face and or broken shaft being the more likely damages it can receive.



    Before someone says. I used the app and then googled it and tried to read it and have still yet to find it in detail to say you cannot replace the head etc. this is part of what I find so frustrating. I can never seem to locate the rule in question in its entirety. Only excerpts.
    You can repair a club, not do total replacement surgery. So if you bend your putter in anger, or falling down a hill as you are prone to do, you can bend it back and still use it. You cannot get it reshafted.




    The official on tv said you could start with 13 and add the 14th after the round had started.




    That is correct. 4.1b(1)

    But note one of the restrictions on this is that you may not add a club which you build from parts carried on the course by you or by someone else for you. 4.1b(4)
  • James the Hogan FanJames the Hogan Fan Members Posts: 639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So regarding the “cannot be carried for the player” condition. Suppose at a given event the player begins with 13 clubs and wishes to add one, a driver in this case. He sends person A to retrieve a shaft from his locker, and person B to retrieve a head from his car in the parking lot. A arrives back with the shaft at the 2nd green, but B does not arrive until the 3rd green because he couldn’t find the player’s car quickly.



    Does the player incur a penalty (once striking a ball with the club assembled at the 3rd green) because A carried the shaft “for” the player the length of the 3rd hole?

    If so, would A and B have to rendezvous at the point where A first contacted the player and assemble the club, before carrying it up to the player?
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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    So regarding the "cannot be carried for the player" condition. Suppose at a given event the player begins with 13 clubs and wishes to add one, a driver in this case. He sends person A to retrieve a shaft from his locker, and person B to retrieve a head from his car in the parking lot. A arrives back with the shaft at the 2nd green, but B does not arrive until the 3rd green because he couldn't find the player's car quickly.



    Does the player incur a penalty (once striking a ball with the club assembled at the 3rd green) because A carried the shaft "for" the player the length of the 3rd hole?

    If so, would A and B have to rendezvous at the point where A first contacted the player and assemble the club, before carrying it up to the player?




    That is a fair question, just like the circumvention of the rule by making the person carry the clubs out of bounds. I'm quite sure the latter would be considered a serious misconduct of acting against the spirit of the rules.



    But a club is considered to be added when the player makes the next stroke (with any club), so my take is the shaft would also be considered to be carried for the player.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 6:43am #165
    Sawgrass wrote:



    Lol. No worries. So the clarification is that you really cannot repair a damaged driver on course. A caved face and or broken shaft being the more likely damages it can receive.



    Before someone says. I used the app and then googled it and tried to read it and have still yet to find it in detail to say you cannot replace the head etc. this is part of what I find so frustrating. I can never seem to locate the rule in question in its entirety. Only excerpts.
    Is your app set to show the full rules? IIR, you get a choice of expert mode or something when you set it up.



    From 4.1:

    Have the club repaired by restoring it as nearly as possible to its condition before the damage happened during the round or while play was stopped, while still using the original grip, shaft and clubhead. But in doing so:

    » The player must not unreasonably delay play (see Rule 5.6a), and

    » Any damage that existed before the round must not be repaired.




    I have no clue. Lol. Wasn’t aware the app had different settings. I’ll look into that. Just have to shake my head at how I still find this like walking down a dark hallway with only a glimmer of light to be seen , sometimes , from the very end. Just shouldn’t be this hard to simply openly read about a rule. Maybe when that book Dave suggested arrives it will all be clear. I hope.



    Edit- this is what the app shows me. I’m not making it up.
    Post edited by Unknown User on
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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Blade, that's the Player's Edition, which doesn't cover nearly all the rules. Look into the menus and try to find how to switch it to Rules of Golf.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.



    And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.



    Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being “ cliffs notes “ of the rules ??!!!



    No wonder I can’t fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?
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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.



    And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.



    Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being “ cliffs notes “ of the rules ??!!!



    No wonder I can’t fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?


    The Player's Edition should be enough to guide casual players through their weekend rounds as long as they don't try to bend the rules and avoid doing anything stupid. The Rules of Golf probably suits those who do out-of-the-ordinary and stupid things and the Interpretations are for the Rules Officials who need to sort out the mess the latter group created.



    (I hope no one takes this too seriously image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />

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  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members Posts: 4,256 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Halebopp wrote:

    Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.



    And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.



    Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being “ cliffs notes “ of the rules ??!!!



    No wonder I can’t fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?


    The Player's Edition should be enough to guide casual players through their weekend rounds as long as they don't try to bend the rules and avoid doing anything stupid. The Rules of Golf probably suits those who do out-of-the-ordinary and stupid things and the Interpretations are for the Rules Officials who need to sort out the mess the latter group created.



    (I hope no one takes this too seriously image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    You calling Varner stupid?
  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members Posts: 4,256 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.
  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    LeoLeo99 wrote:
    Halebopp wrote:

    Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.



    And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.



    Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being “ cliffs notes “ of the rules ??!!!



    No wonder I can’t fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?


    The Player's Edition should be enough to guide casual players through their weekend rounds as long as they don't try to bend the rules and avoid doing anything stupid. The Rules of Golf probably suits those who do out-of-the-ordinary and stupid things and the Interpretations are for the Rules Officials who need to sort out the mess the latter group created.



    (I hope no one takes this too seriously image/smile.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' />




    You calling Varner stupid?


    No
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  • HaleboppHalebopp Members Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    LeoLeo99 wrote:
    Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.


    I'm not sure I'd be too pleased if someone else broke my putter in a tournament and I wasn't allowed to replace it.



    Also, maybe 0.001% of golfers might have the chance and means to work the rule to their "advantage". And how much of an advantage could there even be? Clearly no one is actively using the possibility at the moment.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    LeoLeo99 wrote:


    Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.






    i agree... no real need for this.. and i once used the rule to replace one ....but i could have easily finished with a wedge... i played 2 holes putting with one while they went to get the 2nd putter... i putted better with the wedge..lol
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  • Colin LColin L Members Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 9:17am #174
    LeoLeo99 wrote:


    Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.




    In what way is that simpler than

    a) you are allowed to add clubs up to the maximum of 14;

    b) you can replace a club only if it was damaged by someone or something other than yourself or your caddie?



    And would you be happy if someone ran their buggy over your golf bag, damaging several clubs and you weren't allowed any replacements?
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭


    Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.



    And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.



    Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being " cliffs notes " of the rules ??!!!



    No wonder I can't fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?




    You seem to be in a spirit of complaining over just about anything, aren't you?
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    LeoLeo99 wrote:


    Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.




    Great idea! Especially for the poor guy whose driver, fairway wood, two irons and putter were broken when a referee accidentally drove over the player's bag...
  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 9:23am #177
    Colin L wrote:

    LeoLeo99 wrote:


    Here is a perfect opportunity for rules simplification. No adding clubs or replacing clubs once the round has started.




    In what way is that simpler than

    a) you are allowed to add clubs up to the maximum of 14;

    b) you can replace a club only if it was damaged by someone or something other than yourself or your caddie?




    Well. In my opinion. It goes on to list exceptions. Outside agency’s and natural forces. No definite answer on what those are. Natural forces such as a wind storm ? Or like a guy slipping on a wet bank and dropping his putter on a sprinkler head ? Wet grass and gravity were the causes. But the putter was in the players hands.



    I see several “ judgment “ issues.



    Just not allowing any replacement would be simple. On this case he just should have gotten a new head before. Or not at all. The rule was setup to trip you otherwise. Adding a club after start of a round leaves way too many ways to get penalized. And no clear on course - off course , how long can a person walk to meet you before it constitutes “ carrying “. Can that person walk the shaft off course assemble the head ands walk back etc”. Surely “ no replacements after the round has begun “ is simpler.
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  • bladehunterbladehunter Today was a good day... south carolinaMembers Posts: 27,593 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 9:35am #178
    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.



    And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.



    Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being " cliffs notes " of the rules ??!!!



    No wonder I can't fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?




    You seem to be in a spirit of complaining over just about anything, aren't you?




    Not really. I’ve been reading that app for 4 weeks now. And had no clue it was in “ half a** “ mode. I simply asked what the purpose of that mode was. To confuse ?



    I’m fully admitted to struggling to understand the many nooks and crannies of the rules. But I’m not illiterate. In fact I’m fluent in 2 languages, and yet I admit I have issues with text based learning. I don’t often see obvious things. It’s not from lack of trying. So I tried to simplify by downloading the rules to my phone. For reading and studying anytime. Vs googling and not knowing if I m reading it all or someone’s interpretation etc.



    But then I find things like this ( in life in general ) and it honestly infuriates me. Not because of some game. But because of the lack of empathy for someone who may struggle with different visual formats etc. To hide the **** details as a default is just plain ignorant. You give someone the info and let them decide what is too much. They willl stop reading when they are ready.





    And I’m sorry for this being snappy. I’m not snapping at you. But just at the incident in general.
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  • SoCalTitleistSoCalTitleist Members Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭

    Mr. Bean wrote:



    Wow. I finally see a small blue button that says settings.



    And changed it. And poof. 2 more options appear.



    Why on earth would they make an app with the default setting being " cliffs notes " of the rules ??!!!



    No wonder I can't fnd anything. What circumstance would anyone want a snippet of the rule ?




    You seem to be in a spirit of complaining over just about anything, aren't you?




    Not really. I've been reading that app for 4 weeks now. And had no clue it was in " half a** " mode. I simply asked what the purpose of that mode was. To confuse ?




    And there were no instructions or help in the app? I haven't seen the USGA app but in R&A app there are different titles but of course one needs to spot them as well.
  • Mr. BeanMr. Bean Members Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited Mar 15, 2019 9:41am #181


    why is it so many pros do not know the rules. thats their job!




    This Varner case was an extraordinary one but in general they are not interested in learning the Rules as there is always a referee close by to turn to. It is a pity as knowing the Rules well will eventually save you strokes.

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