Anybody else a high launching, high spinning slow swinging short hitter?

 Re*Ax ·  
Re*AxRe*Ax Members  105WRX Points: 76Posts: 105 Fairways
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I'm after some advice/suggestions from maybe a similar swinger to myself, first a bit of background...I'm a decent Golfer, used to be a lot better, but I've always been behind everyone off similar handicaps in terms of length. I've started playing a fair amount again after having a couple of instances of quitting due to poor play, in short I kept trying to turn my big looping draw to a gentle fade, without success.

A few months ago I finally had a session on Trackman, to try and figure out what was going on at impact to see why I could never start the ball left, while I can't remember my face to target, or face to path now, I do recall I was 10 degrees up (yes 10 and yes up....I was 1 up with a 7 iron) and 10-13 from the inside. When I tried a 'fade' swing best I could do was still about 4 from the inside.

I've just bought a Mevo to help me work on some stuff, and that's showing me with a driver launching at 19-21 degrees and spin 3-4k (I don't always use the stickers). Carry will show 217-231 tops. I consider my on course length to be 250, with 8 iron going 150.

Swing speed is ~95, very smooth tempo, play a big high draw (as an aside I've also noticed that trackman and Mevo show my CHS at about 91 when I'm swinging so far from the inside, as soon as I swing more down the line, even though it feels and sounds slower the CHS recorded goes up...I noticed this as my 7 iron CHS would show ~84mph and no way it would only be 7mph slower than my driver)

Now, I'm currently using an M4, 9.2 measured set to 7.2 with the Atmos Red (stiff) I am still launching a 7.2 loft with my ~95mph CHS at ~20 degrees, which seems crazy high. The swing itself is clearly a flick at the bottom, which I feel I've developed over the years to try and maximise flight, draw and get the most out of my lack of speed.

So to the question, has anyone ever been, or seen similar, did you find any success with different shafts? I've steered clear from stiffer, lower launching lower spin shafts purely based on my lack of speed, I'm also kinda convinced that me always using a low lofted driver has led me to 'flicking' through impact. I did have a play yesterday on the Flightscope optimiser, which was showing if I brought spin and launch down my carry would go to 240+ which would be huge for me.

I am working on my swing to try and get to a lower launch, but keen to hear of any success stories, or things to steer clear of while I work on it. I've also thought about getting a 10.5 driver and hit that over winter to try and get my body to adjust to it over time to bring the flight down.

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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3552WRX Points: 1,603Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,552 Titanium Tees
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    I would first steer clear of anything new equipment related. Extreme numbers like that suggest a massive amount of scooping/flipping at the bottom and no shaft or driver head is going to change that. The only equipment related changes that may help would be related to either playing length or weight. Shortening your driver a decent amount can help get you a little less in to out by encouraging a more upright swing and adding a bunch of weight, both to compensate for the shortening and to generally achieve a heavier build, can help lessen the small muscle influence that can lead to flipping/casting. Those are about the only equipment related things that I think would be relevant to your current situation, otherwise its the dreaded "you need lessons" recommendation.

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  • Go_TimeGo_Time Members  2585WRX Points: 311Posts: 2,585 Titanium Tees
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    If you're a short hitter you probably want high launch and spin to help keep it in the air.

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  • Re*AxRe*Ax Members  105WRX Points: 76Posts: 105 Fairways
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    Appreciate the response, I am currently having lessons, but in the mean time am trying to play in competitions as well, so was just wondering if anything could help while the changes take effect. It will take a while as I'm not getting chance to hit balls as the diary is full with various rounds.
    I had forgotten I had a shaft that was about an inch short in my old R11, and that was probably the best I've ever driven it, so I will cut down this shaft and see how I get on....I've got a bunch of others if it doesn't work out. As for adding of the weight, I'd be using lead tape, any suggestions on placement on the M4 to not make the flight any more extreme?

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  • Re*AxRe*Ax Members  105WRX Points: 76Posts: 105 Fairways
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    On -, @Spongeb0b said:

    If you're a short hitter you probably want high launch and spin to help keep it in the air.

    Yeah, that's why I've shied away from low-low shafts, it's the fact that I've now got it cranked down to 7.2 that's kinda worrying, especially as I hit it 50 behind others with their 10.5 -12.0 and hit it almost twice the height. It was just seeing the numbers change on the Optimiser that made me ask the question I guess.

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25099WRX Points: 1,652Posts: 25,099 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    Appreciate the response, I am currently having lessons, but in the mean time am trying to play in competitions as well, so was just wondering if anything could help while the changes take effect. It will take a while as I'm not getting chance to hit balls as the diary is full with various rounds.
    I had forgotten I had a shaft that was about an inch short in my old R11, and that was probably the best I've ever driven it, so I will cut down this shaft and see how I get on....I've got a bunch of others if it doesn't work out. As for adding of the weight, I'd be using lead tape, any suggestions on placement on the M4 to not make the flight any more extreme?

    If you have the shaft, couldn't hurt to try it but by going as low with the loft as you can, you've probably already done as much as you can from the equipment standpoint. Don't worry about the weight placement.

    Have you checked your face impact location? If not use some foot powder spray. You are obviously delivering a lot of dynamic loft into impact - and that's probably the main reason for your results - but it's always good to check face impact before making any determination.

    How much have you tried playing with tee height and ball position? Sometimes those might be able to provide some help to reduce too high an AoA and too much dynamic loft delivered. e.g. it's hard to hit up on a ball with that much positive AoA when the ball is only teed up 3/4" off the ground with out hitting the ground first :-)

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  • ValtielValtiel Konica-Minolta Bizhub Members  3552WRX Points: 1,603Handicap: 1.7Posts: 3,552 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    Appreciate the response, I am currently having lessons, but in the mean time am trying to play in competitions as well, so was just wondering if anything could help while the changes take effect. It will take a while as I'm not getting chance to hit balls as the diary is full with various rounds.
    I had forgotten I had a shaft that was about an inch short in my old R11, and that was probably the best I've ever driven it, so I will cut down this shaft and see how I get on....I've got a bunch of others if it doesn't work out. As for adding of the weight, I'd be using lead tape, any suggestions on placement on the M4 to not make the flight any more extreme?

    Yeah if you have already had good experience with that then I say go for it, especially if you have shafts to burn. I specifically have drivers setup at different lengths for different ball flights. Slightly longer shaft with a bit more kick for turning the ball over, with the length helping me stay a touch flatter and coming more from the inside and the shaft kick helping me feel the "turn over" motion, and a slightly shorter, stouter shaft for a more neutral delivery and a shaft that I feel like doesn't work against me trying to hold it off.

    As far as lead tape goes, I would say that just behind the "M" in M4 would be the most neutral place to put it, just off that shelf. You can also buy aftermarket weights to pop into the back as well, although this will raise CG and increase MOI on an already high CG, high MOI driver so the neutral lead tape placement might be preferable. Don't be afraid to add quite a bit too! You may find that as the weight increases that the shaft might start feeling a touch more flexible which if that bothers you would just require some tipping to offset. If you don't have an adapter on the shaft you plan on using I would actually recommend talking a half inch off the tip and the butt instead of the full inch from the butt. That way you are setup to handle that extra weight.

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  • zdtallanzdtallan MarylandMembers  127WRX Points: 70Handicap: 3.2Posts: 127 Fairways
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    I finally got fitted for a driver (last club in the bag to get the treatment) and found out I was leaving a lot on the table as far as distance because I was high spin/ high launch (~3500+/17.8). My swing speed averaged out to around 108 with top end of about 112, but I was flying the ball at a 242 avg. with the setup I walked in with. About halfway through, the fitter made a few swing critiques which did way more for my flight, spin, and carry distance than any shaft/head combo. I flipped and created a ton of loft at impact to compensate for early extension. He decided I didn't need a new head (I bought one anyways because it be like that sometimes) but did recommend a heavier shaft to help smooth my tempo which worked great. With the swing adjustments and heavier shaft/smoother tempo my numbers went to averages of 14 launch, 2400 spin, and 267 carry. I drilled those swing thoughts hard and have been able to take it out to the course ever since. Iron out your swing with lessons before you make any big equipment changes.

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  • Hack DaddyHack Daddy Members  1109WRX Points: 340Posts: 1,109 Platinum Tees
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    You're playing the ball too far forward in your stance.

    Tee your driver lower and pretend in your mind it's a fairway wood. For irons, move the ball back in stance as well.

    Edit: basically you cant start the ball left because by the time you get to the ball, you've released and the club face is shut.

    You can literally solve this whole issue by moving the back in your stance. Good luck.

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  • Re*AxRe*Ax Members  105WRX Points: 76Posts: 105 Fairways
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    Thanks all for comments and experience, I must stress lessons and practice is what I’m doing, but it’s a major change to my heavily ingrained patterns, my game has turned around back near how I used to be, so now hope to improve from there.
    For one of the earlier guys about low tee, it is a drill I’m going to work on, hitting driver off deck for a few buckets of balls, bottoming out early is something I’m always prone too.

    Below are a couple of screen grabs from swings earlier this year where you can clearly see the issues, i’ll Post more recent ones, along with data from my Mevo with swing changes as well as shaft changes, in case will be of interest to others, while my numbers aren’t **** in terms of speed, they are usually very consistent...I’ve got to have something good about my game to balance the bad


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    On -, @Stuart_G said:

    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    >

    Have you checked your face impact location? If not use some foot powder spray. You are obviously delivering a lot of dynamic loft into impact - and that's probably the main reason for your results - but it's always good to check face impact before making any determination.

    How much have you tried playing with tee height and ball position? Sometimes those might be able to provide some help to reduce too high an AoA and too much dynamic loft delivered. e.g. it's hard to hit up on a ball with that much positive AoA when the ball is only teed up 3/4" off the ground with out hitting the ground first :-)

    Face impact is usually a very consistent middle for vertical, and almost as consitent horizontally.

    Tee height has been creeping up and up, noting the trackman numbers of 10up were on a tee not far off about half my usual height, dread to think what it is when i actually play for a big draw!

    As mentioned above my plan is to hit loads of driver of deck to start to neutralise my AoA but this will take time as I’ve hit so many balls like this for so long.

    Again, was just seeing if anyone had any similar experiences or similar swings and found any equipment changes helped while the swing was being worked on, appreciate this isn’t the place for swing talk 👍🏻

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25099WRX Points: 1,652Posts: 25,099 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    Face impact is usually a very consistent middle for vertical, and almost as consitent horizontally.

    That's good. It's not uncommon for people trying to hit up on the ball too much to catch it thin - which makes the spin even worse.

    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    Tee height has been creeping up and up, noting the trackman numbers of 10up were on a tee not far off about half my usual height, dread to think what it is when i actually play for a big draw!

    I'm not surprised at all based on the ball height in that last picture.

    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    As mentioned above my plan is to hit loads of driver of deck to start to neutralise my AoA but this will take time as I’ve hit so many balls like this for so long.

    I like the general approach but off the deck seems a little extreme to me - teeing the ball 3/4" (or even 1/2") off the ground should be plenty, will be a lot more forgiving (and therefore more encouraging - or less frustrating), and will still allow you to get a good or at least decent face impact location so get decent results that are useful to watch.

    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    Again, was just seeing if anyone had any similar experiences or similar swings and found any equipment changes helped while the swing was being worked on, appreciate this isn’t the place for swing talk 👍🏻

    You might be a bit extreme but lots of people go into impact with high dynamic loft issues (including me) and lowering the head loft (like I believe you've already done) is really the only truly effective way to deal with it from the equipment standpoint. Shorter playing length may help. But other things like shaft weight, swing weight and shaft flex are more like rolling the dice in how someones swing might respond to those types of changes with respect to dynamic loft. e.g. for some the feel of a stiffer shaft and less loading might hold off the release (and therefore help) but for others it might do the opposite and speed up the release and make the problems worse. So it never really hurts to demo or test various options but I wouldn't spend any money on a new shaft until after you can get confirmation from testing that it really will help. Heavier shaft or swing weight can sometimes slow down or delay the release as well for some people - so playing around with some lead tape might not be a bad idea.

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  • jvincentjvincent Members  1538WRX Points: 821Posts: 1,538 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    I am working on my swing to try and get to a lower launch, but keen to hear of any success stories, or things to steer clear of while I work on it. I've also thought about getting a 10.5 driver and hit that over winter to try and get my body to adjust to it over time to bring the flight down.

    Last year my path switched from being 6* from the inside to 6* from the outside with driver. I went from hitting a natural push-draw to a pull-fade.

    Based on Trackman numbers I ended up switching to a 9* head from the 10.5* heads I had been playing in order to keep my launch and spin numbers reasonable so that's probably your best bet in the short term.

    My guess is that part of your coming from the inside is that your swing plane is very flat like mine was. My change actually happened because I was trying to improve my iron consistency because coming in as flat as I did was not very good. For me the key was to focus on taking the club straight back vs on the inside. I don't think/worry about my position at the top but taking it away straight for as long as possible ends up shifting the plane up for me.

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  • YrrdeadYrrdead Better Living Through Chemistry Members  1643WRX Points: 154Handicap: 8.9Posts: 1,643 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Stuart_G do you feel like it is worth experimenting with loft in the other direction? I know that I react to the loft I see and by that I mean my launch changes with loft but not always how I expect. So would it be worth seeing how his dynamic loft and AoA would change with like 11-degrees?

    I know for me if I have like 7 or 8 degree's of loft my AoA goes up as a reaction to that low loft and when I loft up to 10 or so my AoA flattens out.

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  • Stuart_GStuart_G New HampshireMembers  25099WRX Points: 1,652Posts: 25,099 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Yrrdead said:

    On -, @Stuart_G do you feel like it is worth experimenting with loft in the other direction? I know that I react to the loft I see and by that I mean my launch changes with loft but not always how I expect. So would it be worth seeing how his dynamic loft and AoA would change with like 11-degrees?

    I know for me if I have like 7 or 8 degree's of loft my AoA goes up as a reaction to that low loft and when I loft up to 10 or so my AoA flattens out.

    You never know - so it never really hurts to try anything - but from what I've seen/heard that type of reaction or compensation is not all that common. More often it's ball position, tee height and secondary tilt at set-up that's going to have the biggest sub-conscious influence on AoA.

    Now If we were dealing with shot shape problems and face angle changes - then I'd say yes - particularly among better players - it's more common to see inherent over compensations based on the visual at set-up.

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  • Red4282Red4282 Members  887WRX Points: 363Posts: 887 Golden Tee
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    Your hanging back way too much, weight needs to transfer to lead foot on downswing, rotate left shoulder open (instead of up) to square club path.

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  • Re*AxRe*Ax Members  105WRX Points: 76Posts: 105 Fairways
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    On -, @Yrrdead said:

    On -, @Stuart_G do you feel like it is worth experimenting with loft in the other direction? I know that I react to the loft I see and by that I mean my launch changes with loft but not always how I expect. So would it be worth seeing how his dynamic loft and AoA would change with like 11-degrees?

    I know for me if I have like 7 or 8 degree's of loft my AoA goes up as a reaction to that low loft and when I loft up to 10 or so my AoA flattens out.

    I think I mentioned this above,I’m tempted to go 10.5/11 and hit balls until I can tame the flight, I think I’ve Caused this issue back in ‘97ish when I got a Ti Bubble 8.5. I just find it so hard to look down at such loft, but I know my dynamics will change to suit it

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  • Re*AxRe*Ax Members  105WRX Points: 76Posts: 105 Fairways
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    On -, @Red4282 said:

    Your hanging back way too much, weight needs to transfer to lead foot on downswing, rotate left shoulder open (instead of up) to square club path.

    Yep, pressure mat showed about 52% on lead foot at impact and only about 61% when Club was well into follow through, again all part of what I’m working on, along with right shoulder feeling like coming over the top through the ball...my current swing ‘feels’ are basically all the things you’d want a shanker to stop doing

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  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members  4930WRX Points: 779Posts: 4,930 Titanium Tees
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    Only on wrx is 150 8-iron a short hitter.

    Whenever my distance goes down, it's due to weight transfer and not getting my weight onto my back foot in the backswing.

    My SS is 97 and I'm high backspin with driver and I've been fit twice into low spinning driver heads with stock shafts. A made for stiff or a stout regular shaft match up to my swing.

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  • Red4282Red4282 Members  887WRX Points: 363Posts: 887 Golden Tee
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    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    On -, @Red4282 said:

    Your hanging back way too much, weight needs to transfer to lead foot on downswing, rotate left shoulder open (instead of up) to square club path.

    Yep, pressure mat showed about 52% on lead foot at impact and only about 61% when Club was well into follow through, again all part of what I’m working on, along with right shoulder feeling like coming over the top through the ball...my current swing ‘feels’ are basically all the things you’d want a shanker to stop doing

    Wow those numbers are actually better than the pictures would indicate. Your body apears to be way over your right side. Id work on the path first. Your launch will naturally come down with a not so in to out path.

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  • Re*AxRe*Ax Members  105WRX Points: 76Posts: 105 Fairways
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    On -, @LeoLeo99 said:

    Only on wrx is 150 8-iron a short hitter.

    Whenever my distance goes down, it's due to weight transfer and not getting my weight onto my back foot in the backswing.

    My SS is 97 and I'm high backspin with driver and I've been fit twice into low spinning driver heads with stock shafts. A made for stiff or a stout regular shaft match up to my swing.

    Well I do use P790s!
    And it’s not like I’m pitching it over the flag and zipping back, it’s landing about 145 and hopping a couple of Times. What shaft/head you gaming now then?

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  • YrrdeadYrrdead Better Living Through Chemistry Members  1643WRX Points: 154Handicap: 8.9Posts: 1,643 Platinum Tees
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    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    On -, @LeoLeo99 said:

    Only on wrx is 150 8-iron a short hitter.

    Whenever my distance goes down, it's due to weight transfer and not getting my weight onto my back foot in the backswing.

    My SS is 97 and I'm high backspin with driver and I've been fit twice into low spinning driver heads with stock shafts. A made for stiff or a stout regular shaft match up to my swing.

    Well I do use P790s!
    And it’s not like I’m pitching it over the flag and zipping back, it’s landing about 145 and hopping a couple of Times. What shaft/head you gaming now then?

    In general when talking about distance its important to stick to a couple guidelines;
    1. Use carry distance not total
    2. If known, include loft of club
    3. Elevation as well.
    These three things help to "normalize" the numbers so that apples to apples comparisons can be made.

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  • LeoLeo99LeoLeo99 Members  4930WRX Points: 779Posts: 4,930 Titanium Tees
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    On -, @Re*Ax said:

    On -, @LeoLeo99 said:

    Only on wrx is 150 8-iron a short hitter.

    Whenever my distance goes down, it's due to weight transfer and not getting my weight onto my back foot in the backswing.

    My SS is 97 and I'm high backspin with driver and I've been fit twice into low spinning driver heads with stock shafts. A made for stiff or a stout regular shaft match up to my swing.

    Well I do use P790s!
    And it’s not like I’m pitching it over the flag and zipping back, it’s landing about 145 and hopping a couple of Times. What shaft/head you gaming now then?

    Was fit several years ago into a 913D2 with a stock blue board stiff.

    Took that driver to my fitting last year for comparison and was fit into an M1 440 with the weights moved all the forward (low) and neutral. On the course, though, the M1 hits low bullets.

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