Project x 6.0 iron shafts

I am currently playing Miura cb 501s with project x 6.0 taper shaft. I am finding the ball flight is too low and doesn't have enough spin. My driver ss is 110-113 and my 7 iron ss is about 89 mph. The dispersion is so tight though with this shaft, but it won't launch high enough no matter what I do with my swing. What other shafts could I try? Would a project x 5.5 cause significantly more dispersion than a 6.0? What (any brand) shaft could minimize my dispersion while getting more height and spin? Could the rifle flighted shaft in 6.0 be a better choice?

Edit: Thanks for all the responses! I really love the cb 501 heads as my distance control with them is absolutely second to none. I play off a +2, although I'm not a great ball striker and I find the 501 oddly forgiving considering miss hits and sweet spot shots aren't too much different. The sweet spot doesn't nuke the ball like most modern irons. I am considering getting a taylormade p750 or p760 4 and 5 iron though for height, distance, and gapping at the bottom of the bag though. My 5w and Miura 4 iron have too large a gap.

I’ll be following this intently. I was fitted into Rifle 5.5 shafts this year and I’m eager to find some more widely available, comparable shafts that better fit my budget.

Give KBS a try certainly a higher spin and launch shaft in my experience. Also very easy to come by in the used market. Some other options potentially from Nippon would be the Modus 130 in maybe Stiff flex but they aren't for everyone.

I’ve just moved from px 6.0 because of this reason. I found that my flight was too low in general and spin was on the lower side. I do play on a links course that is windy almost always so lowish flight is not terrible. However I wanted a mid flight with a bit more grab when landing but not too much spin as to stall in the wind. I got fit for the modus 105x - dispersion has great, feel is much better, flight and spin is up a bit and I’ve also removed my miss left with the px. The 105x is actually 113g I believe so it’s not that much lighter, it’s just smoother. YMMV

maybe head over to the TT site and look at the AMT range, Red or Black sound like they could pique your interest.

> @WanLefty said:

> Give KBS a try certainly a higher spin and launch shaft in my experience. Also very easy to come by in the used market. Some other options potentially from Nippon would be the Modus 130 in maybe Stiff flex but they aren't for everyone.

I made the move when I last changed irons from the Project X 6.0 to KBS Tour and it has been brilliant. Much less harsh feeling shaft and a better ball flight for me.

stay in the px lineup and get the LZ 6.0. A little more active tip to help with launch

It's all about the combo of shaft and head. That club has a high CG that is above the ball equator so if you aren't delofting/have a very negative AOA you will struggle to get it airborne. I have a friend who owns the CB 501 and finds his tournament blades drastically easier to hit. I think that shaft would be just fine in say an AP2 or the like but you're probably just really having trouble with the combo. I'd go for a fitting and see what you can do before going through a reshaft on a clubhead that probably doesn't fit you to begin with. You could pour money into it and still not be getting optimal peak height.

> @Holeoot said:

> I’ve just moved from px 6.0 because of this reason. I found that my flight was too low in general and spin was on the lower side. I do play on a links course that is windy almost always so lowish flight is not terrible. However I wanted a mid flight with a bit more grab when landing but not too much spin as to stall in the wind. I got fit for the modus 105x - dispersion has great, feel is much better, flight and spin is up a bit and I’ve also removed my miss left with the px. The 105x is actually 113g I believe so it’s not that much lighter, it’s just smoother. YMMV

Can you share SS with 6 iron and maybe Mizuno Optimizer figures?

We seem to be very similar, but I moved from 105X to 6.0 and now to 5.5. BTW, my dispersion with PX is better. Also I‘m very comfortable with the PX feel in comparison with Nippon.

Rifle flighted will increase launch and also PXI will get it higher. PXI is lighter but the feel and dispersion is very good. You won’t duplicate the same feel as the PX switching brands. So if you like that feel stay in the family.

> @andfri said:

> > @Holeoot said:

> > I’ve just moved from px 6.0 because of this reason. I found that my flight was too low in general and spin was on the lower side. I do play on a links course that is windy almost always so lowish flight is not terrible. However I wanted a mid flight with a bit more grab when landing but not too much spin as to stall in the wind. I got fit for the modus 105x - dispersion has great, feel is much better, flight and spin is up a bit and I’ve also removed my miss left with the px. The 105x is actually 113g I believe so it’s not that much lighter, it’s just smoother. YMMV

>

> Can you share SS with 6 iron and maybe Mizuno Optimizer figures?

>

> We seem to be very similar, but I moved from 105X to 6.0 and now to 5.5. BTW, my dispersion with PX is better. Also I‘m very comfortable with the PX feel in comparison with Nippon.

I didn’t use the Mizuno Optimizer but my swing speed with 6 iron is around 93mph with carry around the 180-185.

I tried DG 120, Dg normal 130, modus 120, px 6.0 lz, modus 105x and my own. I found the dispersion to be better with the modus, a bit more peak height but similar distances to my px (which I was more than happy with).

For reference I went from Callaway Xforged to Mp18 SC.

As others have said, if you like the dispersion and feel of PX give the LZ line a try first. If that doesn't suit you than open yourself up to other brand options. I would also add another vote to give the Mizuno Shaft Optimizer a go. It'll give you a good starting point for some shafts to try in your profile, and a fitter can help fine tune from there.

> @Holeoot said:

> > @andfri said:

> > > @Holeoot said:

> > > I’ve just moved from px 6.0 because of this reason. I found that my flight was too low in general and spin was on the lower side. I do play on a links course that is windy almost always so lowish flight is not terrible. However I wanted a mid flight with a bit more grab when landing but not too much spin as to stall in the wind. I got fit for the modus 105x - dispersion has great, feel is much better, flight and spin is up a bit and I’ve also removed my miss left with the px. The 105x is actually 113g I believe so it’s not that much lighter, it’s just smoother. YMMV

> >

> > Can you share SS with 6 iron and maybe Mizuno Optimizer figures?

> >

> > We seem to be very similar, but I moved from 105X to 6.0 and now to 5.5. BTW, my dispersion with PX is better. Also I‘m very comfortable with the PX feel in comparison with Nippon.

>

>

> I didn’t use the Mizuno Optimizer but my swing speed with 6 iron is around 93mph with carry around the 180-185.

>

> I tried DG 120, Dg normal 130, modus 120, px 6.0 lz, modus 105x and my own. I found the dispersion to be better with the modus, a bit more peak height but similar distances to my px (which I was more than happy with).

>

> For reference I went from Callaway Xforged to Mp18 SC.

>

What is your peak height, spin, descent angle with your PX and the next best option?

> @balls_deep said:

> It's all about the combo of shaft and head. That club has a high CG that is above the ball equator so if you aren't delofting/have a very negative AOA you will struggle to get it airborne. I have a friend who owns the CB 501 and finds his tournament blades drastically easier to hit. I think that shaft would be just fine in say an AP2 or the like but you're probably just really having trouble with the combo. I'd go for a fitting and see what you can do before going through a reshaft on a clubhead that probably doesn't fit you to begin with. You could pour money into it and still not be getting optimal peak height.

Ding, ding, ding ,,. This is key. The COG is a major factor. So many clubs these days tout low COG to boost launch, and I find PX Rifles work great with them because for me they bring flight down better than DG, even though DG is supposed to launch lower. The Rifle has similar launch but flattens out and carries on a more penetrating trajectory. I have found a rocket-launching high-flying head like a Srixon 585 or 919 Hot Metal does great with a shaft such as the 6.0. I think they are great shafts. Nothing like the PX LZ shafts. Same brand only. If I had your set, I would look at your apex, carry and ball speed. If it all fits the 6.0 and you like the shaft, weaken the loft on your low-flying irons 1 degree. I’ve seen that bring longer carry, depending on the combo.

If you want something Rifle-like with similar feel flex for flex and maybe different launch, look at C Tapers S or R+. If you want Rifle but a bit softer feel, look at C Taper Lite or Rifle 5.0. Don’t assume it’s the 5.5. Test it. Forget the flex label with Rifles. The 5.0 is a 115g shaft just like the 5.5 and is quite stable, especially for players who are “hitters.”

Ctaper feels nothing like a PX Rifle and will not increase launch. Lower in my experience and they feel like bricks

I play 6.0 and hit the ball high.

> @balls_deep said:

> > @Holeoot said:

> > > @andfri said:

> > > > @Holeoot said:

> > > > I’ve just moved from px 6.0 because of this reason. I found that my flight was too low in general and spin was on the lower side. I do play on a links course that is windy almost always so lowish flight is not terrible. However I wanted a mid flight with a bit more grab when landing but not too much spin as to stall in the wind. I got fit for the modus 105x - dispersion has great, feel is much better, flight and spin is up a bit and I’ve also removed my miss left with the px. The 105x is actually 113g I believe so it’s not that much lighter, it’s just smoother. YMMV

> > >

> > > Can you share SS with 6 iron and maybe Mizuno Optimizer figures?

> > >

> > > We seem to be very similar, but I moved from 105X to 6.0 and now to 5.5. BTW, my dispersion with PX is better. Also I‘m very comfortable with the PX feel in comparison with Nippon.

> >

> >

> > I didn’t use the Mizuno Optimizer but my swing speed with 6 iron is around 93mph with carry around the 180-185.

> >

> > I tried DG 120, Dg normal 130, modus 120, px 6.0 lz, modus 105x and my own. I found the dispersion to be better with the modus, a bit more peak height but similar distances to my px (which I was more than happy with).

> >

> > For reference I went from Callaway Xforged to Mp18 SC.

> >

>

> What is your peak height, spin, descent angle with your PX and the next best option?

Don’t quote me on this as I can’t remember exactly but I believe my px numbers were roughly - spin: 4200 - 4400, descent angle was around 36-40 and peak height was low 90s (ft).

105x got my spin numbers up between 5100 and 5400, peak height was up around 105ft and descent was around mid 40s. Fitter said that the 6000 spin for a 6 iron is not an accurate goal for most amateurs and that low to mid 5000’s was fine.

That’s really of the top of my head as I don’t have the data. My next favourite shaft was the DG 120. However I hit around 10 shots with each shaft got it down to 2 shafts and then did a last 10 compared with my own and the 105x was the winner.

I have PX 6.0's and launch the ball super high... > @Lobber said:

> I play 6.0 and hit the ball high.

> @Lobber said:

> I play 6.0 and hit the ball high.

Same here... I launch PX 6.0's. People usually comment on how high I hit irons/wedges during round. I don't think they are "too" high though.

> @Holeoot said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @Holeoot said:

> > > > @andfri said:

> > > > > @Holeoot said:

> > > > > I’ve just moved from px 6.0 because of this reason. I found that my flight was too low in general and spin was on the lower side. I do play on a links course that is windy almost always so lowish flight is not terrible. However I wanted a mid flight with a bit more grab when landing but not too much spin as to stall in the wind. I got fit for the modus 105x - dispersion has great, feel is much better, flight and spin is up a bit and I’ve also removed my miss left with the px. The 105x is actually 113g I believe so it’s not that much lighter, it’s just smoother. YMMV

> > > >

> > > > Can you share SS with 6 iron and maybe Mizuno Optimizer figures?

> > > >

> > > > We seem to be very similar, but I moved from 105X to 6.0 and now to 5.5. BTW, my dispersion with PX is better. Also I‘m very comfortable with the PX feel in comparison with Nippon.

> > >

> > >

> > > I didn’t use the Mizuno Optimizer but my swing speed with 6 iron is around 93mph with carry around the 180-185.

> > >

> > > I tried DG 120, Dg normal 130, modus 120, px 6.0 lz, modus 105x and my own. I found the dispersion to be better with the modus, a bit more peak height but similar distances to my px (which I was more than happy with).

> > >

> > > For reference I went from Callaway Xforged to Mp18 SC.

> > >

> >

> > What is your peak height, spin, descent angle with your PX and the next best option?

>

> Don’t quote me on this as I can’t remember exactly but I believe my px numbers were roughly - spin: 4200 - 4400, descent angle was around 36-40 and peak height was low 90s (ft).

>

> 105x got my spin numbers up between 5100 and 5400, peak height was up around 105ft and descent was around mid 40s. Fitter said that the 6000 spin for a 6 iron is not an accurate goal for most amateurs and that low to mid 5000’s was fine.

>

> That’s really of the top of my head as I don’t have the data. My next favourite shaft was the DG 120. However I hit around 10 shots with each shaft got it down to 2 shafts and then did a last 10 compared with my own and the 105x was the winner.

>

>

>

Yeah that descent is too low for sure - tough to get the ball to stop. 105x sounds better. DG120 is a nice shaft and is flighted so you get height in the long irons as well. I love DG personally

I should have said high boring not ballooning flight. I don't find them harsh either and have tried other shafts (including LZ which did fly too high for me with not so great dispersion) but seem to come back to PX

I tested C-Taper 120 "S" and didn't like the feel. But consistently played PX 6.0 for 13 years the last few years were in 716CB heads which are similar in design to CB-501 heads, both with muscles in the cavity. About a year back, I switched to PX 5.5 and recently tested 5.0. I finally turned to another set of lighter shafts with a similar bend profile. I am still maintaining my low index, and 7 iron is 150yd carry club using older type lofts.

Before I played PX 6.0, I played Rifle 6.5 for some time. FYI: PX Rifle shaft is NOTHING like PX, as Rifle is softer in the butt and tip.

I never had a problem getting the ball up, and dispersion was never an issue with any version of PX that I played. The only difference between 6.0 to 5.0 was weight. And the only reason for my changing from PX was distance loss due to age. If the ball isn't getting up in the air where you expect it, look at swing mechanics, setup, grip, maybe even expectations.

As @JoeFrigo said: PX LZ 6.0 has a stiff butt, more active mid-section and tip, similar to PX. I tested them and like the result except for needing more yardage per club which was found in my current shafts.

Technology, again, helps me maintain distance without going to stronger lofts, which has no bearing on the OP's problem.

> @Pepperturbo said:

> I tested C-Taper 120 "S" and didn't like the feel. But consistently played PX 6.0 for 13 years the last few years were in 716CB heads which are similar in design to CB-501 heads, both with muscles in the cavity. About a year back, I switched to PX 5.5 and recently tested 5.0. I finally turned to another set of lighter shafts with a similar bend profile. I am still maintaining my low index, and 7 iron is 150yd carry club using older type lofts.

>

> Before I played PX 6.0, I played Rifle 6.5 for some time. FYI: PX Rifle shaft is NOTHING like PX, as Rifle is softer in the butt and tip.

>

> I never had a problem getting the ball up, and dispersion was never an issue with any version of PX that I played. The only difference between 6.0 to 5.0 was weight. And the only reason for my changing from PX was distance loss due to age. If the ball isn't getting up in the air where you expect it, look at swing mechanics, setup, grip, maybe even expectations.

Though those club heads look similar, they are nothing alike. The CB is insanely easy to launch and is a very high flying/high spin head IMO. The CB 501 is notoriously difficult to play and has a very low trajectory. I agree there is probably swing/setup improvement that could happen but I do believe there is a bad fit which isn't helping.

> @balls_deep said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > I tested C-Taper 120 "S" and didn't like the feel. But consistently played PX 6.0 for 13 years the last few years were in 716CB heads which are similar in design to CB-501 heads, both with muscles in the cavity. About a year back, I switched to PX 5.5 and recently tested 5.0. I finally turned to another set of lighter shafts with a similar bend profile. I am still maintaining my low index, and 7 iron is 150yd carry club using older type lofts.

> >

> > Before I played PX 6.0, I played Rifle 6.5 for some time. FYI: PX Rifle shaft is NOTHING like PX, as Rifle is softer in the butt and tip.

> >

> > I never had a problem getting the ball up, and dispersion was never an issue with any version of PX that I played. The only difference between 6.0 to 5.0 was weight. And the only reason for my changing from PX was distance loss due to age. If the ball isn't getting up in the air where you expect it, look at swing mechanics, setup, grip, maybe even expectations.

>

> Though those club heads look similar, they are nothing alike. The CB is insanely easy to launch and is a very high flying/high spin head IMO. The CB 501 is notoriously difficult to play and has a very low trajectory. I agree there is probably swing/setup improvement that could happen but I do believe there is a bad fit which isn't helping.

The CB 501 is no more notorious than my 716CB's. Depends on the shaft, the person and swing mechanics. Friends love my irons but tried hitting them but only limited success. What I didn't like about 501 and other Miura heads is the amount of offset, bounce and strong lofts which force too much of my attention. Same is true for my TM RsiTP irons reason they set in storage. I do NOT like offset, high bounce or strong lofts.

> @Pepperturbo said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > I tested C-Taper 120 "S" and didn't like the feel. But consistently played PX 6.0 for 13 years the last few years were in 716CB heads which are similar in design to CB-501 heads, both with muscles in the cavity. About a year back, I switched to PX 5.5 and recently tested 5.0. I finally turned to another set of lighter shafts with a similar bend profile. I am still maintaining my low index, and 7 iron is 150yd carry club using older type lofts.

> > >

> > > Before I played PX 6.0, I played Rifle 6.5 for some time. FYI: PX Rifle shaft is NOTHING like PX, as Rifle is softer in the butt and tip.

> > >

> > > I never had a problem getting the ball up, and dispersion was never an issue with any version of PX that I played. The only difference between 6.0 to 5.0 was weight. And the only reason for my changing from PX was distance loss due to age. If the ball isn't getting up in the air where you expect it, look at swing mechanics, setup, grip, maybe even expectations.

> >

> > Though those club heads look similar, they are nothing alike. The CB is insanely easy to launch and is a very high flying/high spin head IMO. The CB 501 is notoriously difficult to play and has a very low trajectory. I agree there is probably swing/setup improvement that could happen but I do believe there is a bad fit which isn't helping.

>

> The CB 501 is no more notorious than my 716CB's. Depends on the shaft, the person and swing mechanics. Friends love my irons but tried hitting them but only limited success. What I didn't like about 501 and other Miura heads is the amount of offset, bounce and strong lofts which force too much of my attention. Same is true for my TM RsiTP irons reason they set in storage. I do NOT like offset, high bounce or strong lofts.

We are going to have to disagree. I know your clubs aren't GI but I've owned them and they are as easy to hit as AP2 IMO. They have a lower CG, high MOI, tons of tungsten and are a far cry from a demanding club. The 716 is renowned on here for being one of the most forgiving players irons ever made. The 501 is considered by many to be a very difficult club to hit well - likened to a proper blade. I'd take the Titleist MB over the 501 in a forgiveness contest.

> @Jc999 said:

> I am currently playing Miura cb 501s with project x 6.0 taper shaft. I am finding the ball flight is too low and doesn't have enough spin. My driver ss is 110-113 and my 7 iron ss is about 89 mph. The dispersion is so tight though with this shaft, but it won't launch high enough no matter what I do with my swing. What other shafts could I try? Would a project x 5.5 cause significantly more dispersion than a 6.0? What (any brand) shaft could minimize my dispersion while getting more height and spin? Could the rifle flighted shaft in 6.0 be a better choice?

Bend lofts weaker if the shafts feels good.

Ball flight is a question of loft at impact, and the ball has no clue where loft came from, so if we use a shaft that bends more (and feel different) or if we just bend lofts weaker...same same, so bend lofts and save a lot of cash.

> @balls_deep said:

> > @Holeoot said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @Holeoot said:

> > > > > @andfri said:

> > > > > > @Holeoot said:

> > > > > > I’ve just moved from px 6.0 because of this reason. I found that my flight was too low in general and spin was on the lower side. I do play on a links course that is windy almost always so lowish flight is not terrible. However I wanted a mid flight with a bit more grab when landing but not too much spin as to stall in the wind. I got fit for the modus 105x - dispersion has great, feel is much better, flight and spin is up a bit and I’ve also removed my miss left with the px. The 105x is actually 113g I believe so it’s not that much lighter, it’s just smoother. YMMV

> > > > >

> > > > > Can you share SS with 6 iron and maybe Mizuno Optimizer figures?

> > > > >

> > > > > We seem to be very similar, but I moved from 105X to 6.0 and now to 5.5. BTW, my dispersion with PX is better. Also I‘m very comfortable with the PX feel in comparison with Nippon.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I didn’t use the Mizuno Optimizer but my swing speed with 6 iron is around 93mph with carry around the 180-185.

> > > >

> > > > I tried DG 120, Dg normal 130, modus 120, px 6.0 lz, modus 105x and my own. I found the dispersion to be better with the modus, a bit more peak height but similar distances to my px (which I was more than happy with).

> > > >

> > > > For reference I went from Callaway Xforged to Mp18 SC.

> > > >

> > >

> > > What is your peak height, spin, descent angle with your PX and the next best option?

> >

> > Don’t quote me on this as I can’t remember exactly but I believe my px numbers were roughly - spin: 4200 - 4400, descent angle was around 36-40 and peak height was low 90s (ft).

> >

> > 105x got my spin numbers up between 5100 and 5400, peak height was up around 105ft and descent was around mid 40s. Fitter said that the 6000 spin for a 6 iron is not an accurate goal for most amateurs and that low to mid 5000’s was fine.

> >

> > That’s really of the top of my head as I don’t have the data. My next favourite shaft was the DG 120. However I hit around 10 shots with each shaft got it down to 2 shafts and then did a last 10 compared with my own and the 105x was the winner.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Yeah that descent is too low for sure - tough to get the ball to stop. 105x sounds better. DG120 is a nice shaft and is flighted so you get height in the long irons as well. I love DG personally

Yeah I noticed more of a negative with the px once summer started and the greens got firmer. Spring condition greens were still soft enough not to hinder me, summer greens are pretty hard and fast so any help is a bonus! Ive played DG most of my life s300 and dabbled with x100sl I am a fan as well.

> @balls_deep said:

> We are going to have to disagree. I know your clubs aren't GI but I've owned them and they are as easy to hit as AP2 IMO. They have a lower CG, high MOI, tons of tungsten and are a far cry from a demanding club. The 716 is renowned on here for being one of the most forgiving players irons ever made. The 501 is considered by many to be a very difficult club to hit well - likened to a proper blade. I'd take the Titleist MB over the 501 in a forgiveness contest.

The cb 501 is significantly more forgiving than the MB. Mishits were coming up 5 yards shorter than with Miura. I am wondering though as I've been playing my Miuras for 3 years now what a good iron to switch into would be. I want a players cavity back and maybe I'll combine it with some longer hitting long irons. How's the P750?

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Jc999 said:

> > I am currently playing Miura cb 501s with project x 6.0 taper shaft. I am finding the ball flight is too low and doesn't have enough spin. My driver ss is 110-113 and my 7 iron ss is about 89 mph. The dispersion is so tight though with this shaft, but it won't launch high enough no matter what I do with my swing. What other shafts could I try? Would a project x 5.5 cause significantly more dispersion than a 6.0? What (any brand) shaft could minimize my dispersion while getting more height and spin? Could the rifle flighted shaft in 6.0 be a better choice?

>

> Bend lofts weaker if the shafts feels good.

> Ball flight is a question of loft at impact, and the ball has no clue where loft came from, so if we use a shaft that bends more (and feel different) or if we just bend lofts weaker...same same, so bend lofts and save a lot of cash.

In just weakening lofts, does one have to be worried about the addition of bounce on the irons and them possibly affecting turf interaction? Or does it have to be fairly extreme, like bending 4* in order to really impact the player?

> @ddetts said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @Jc999 said:

> > > I am currently playing Miura cb 501s with project x 6.0 taper shaft. I am finding the ball flight is too low and doesn't have enough spin. My driver ss is 110-113 and my 7 iron ss is about 89 mph. The dispersion is so tight though with this shaft, but it won't launch high enough no matter what I do with my swing. What other shafts could I try? Would a project x 5.5 cause significantly more dispersion than a 6.0? What (any brand) shaft could minimize my dispersion while getting more height and spin? Could the rifle flighted shaft in 6.0 be a better choice?

> >

> > Bend lofts weaker if the shafts feels good.

> > Ball flight is a question of loft at impact, and the ball has no clue where loft came from, so if we use a shaft that bends more (and feel different) or if we just bend lofts weaker...same same, so bend lofts and save a lot of cash.

>

> In just weakening lofts, does one have to be worried about the addition of bounce on the irons and them possibly affecting turf interaction? Or does it have to be fairly extreme, like bending 4* in order to really impact the player?

Listened to an interview with Chris V from Mizuno and he said the new 919 line was designed with 2* loft progression so that you can meet in the middle of a gap by bending say a 919F one weak and a 919T one strong. Bending 1 or 2 degrees strong or weak will lessen or increase bounce respectively by the same amount. That amount won't affect the average player. I think you'd have to go to an extreme to really feel it impact you. Agree though, sounds like you should weaken the lofts a bit.