BST dispute. I got duped. It's like the WILD WEST right now.

[thevaporz]

Irish, get some air. You're turning red.

[Skhacker]

Why not charge everyone who wants to use the BST a one time fee?

$5 or $10 and you would then have a database of the actual people using it. Might make people think twice about trying to burn somebody if you need a real name and address.

Just a thought. I could be way off.

[straightshot7]

> @Skhacker said:

> Why not charge everyone who wants to use the BST a one time fee?

> $5 or $10 and you would then have a database of the actual people using it. Might make people think twice about trying to burn somebody if you need a real name and address.

> Just a thought. I could be way off.

 

I don't think you're way off. But, as it is, people still need to use a real name and address on PayPal. Unless they are lying to PayPal.

 

If they can fake a name and address with PayPal, they could probably fake it for the BST membership.

 

Also, having a database of users would be fine. But then you'd still need the site to police situations. Which is something they probably don't want to do.

 

Maybe a database could help in that the site could permanently ban offenders. But even as is I think they are probably IP banning known scammers.

[Olde Maroon]

> @Gxgolfer said:

> > @wrbush31 said:

> > > @Gxgolfer said:

> > > Fair point but

> > > Feedback is not always given or received for most transactions

> > > Their is no validation of the feedback

> > > The willingness to do things knowingly or unknowingly cannot be regulated.

> > > It take time to build feedback unless again someone makes multiple accounts and works around the system.

> >

> > In the interest of making this place better in the future, I’m going to point out this is a smoke and mirrors distraction hoping we just go “oh, ok.”

> >

> > What you just described may as well say “what’s the point of feedback at all?!” Even if anything you said there was valid, I can still see if someone has six negatives even if there were a hundred other transactions they had that were good or bad.

> >

> > I understand your need to defend your kingdom here, but it would probably go over a hundred times better if you just flat out said “we really screwed up not having feedback at launch, we hear your feedback (pun not intended) and are working tirelessly to restore it.” And no, I don’t need to read another prose on the old system’s lack of stability so there just wasn’t time to develop the feedback function. Maybe that’s true, and fine, I’ll accept it, but that narrative isn’t holding water for most people.

> >

> > WRX dropped the ball on feedback, it’s causing very tangible problems for the Classified community, and possibly a noticeable long term detriment to WRX traffic and user base. Let’s just be honest about that and stop telling us we have it totally misconstrued. Most of us have been here awhile, we don’t.

> >

> >

>

> I’m not sure what you are reading but we said many times that we made mistakes in this roll out, but understand this is the Internet and people just love to pile on.

>

> They claim erroneous motives and plain make stuff up. Look, we employ people that support families and the constant baseless attacks gets tiring and people do get sensitive as there is a difference between frustration and personal attacks to troll for a provocative response. There are multiple threads in the website and feedback forum where we go in depth about everything.

>

> When the previous feedback system was in place, these exact same issues occurred. I’m not entering a debate about the validity of the information or usage because ultimately it doesn’t matter, we just need to bring it back and working to do so.

>

> Did it help sure, but the lack of personal responsibility also has a place. We also have rules about payment methods and listings that are constantly broken as well for people to save a few bucks. It’s human nature for people to want to take risks.

>

> So let’s sum up:

>

> 1) We recognize and own we made multiple mistakes.

>

> 2) The old feedback scores are being restored as a read only and in final sprint

> Roll outs are done in phase in different environments and finally is in staging phase and almost ready to production push.

>

> 3) The new system has started. The delays are attributed to priority of rolling out new theme, compatibility and also stages we want to roll out the new feedback system by. The initial build hours are in the 100 to 200 range.

>

>

>

 

If I may ask, why are you asking for us to report users who demand unprotected payment options (Venmo, F&F, etc.)? There was a thread (https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776387/venmo-and-feedback-questions#latest) about a user who posts BST ads with no mention of this requirement, but when you PM him to buy something he demands Venmo. I (and I would guess others) reported this behavior to the mods. This user still has his ad up in BST and he even refused to answer a direct inquiry about this in his sale thread.

 

So, to summarize:

 

1. You have a rule prohibiting the practice of requiring Venmo/F&F/etc.

2. User explicitly violates the rule.

3. He openly admitted to violating this rule.

4. He was reported for this behavior in a thread and through the flagging feature (again, at the request of site admin).

5. His BST ad remains open and his account active, allowing him to continue to openly violate the rule at the direct risk to the community.

 

How can you claim that we as a community aren't owning responsibility when this is a case of the community doing everything we can to prevent this practice while site admin doesn't do anything to enforce its own site rules?

[larciel]

Why do you, gxgolfer, keep replying "they are making baseless attacks" to people who are making valid points and concerns? That's smoke and mirror the other guy was talking about.

 

I understand you probably answered same question several times and unfairly was criticized by few but your answers doesn't directly answer the questions nor you would like to engage with members to improve the experience here.

Mostly it's like. " We said we're sorry, let's wait until things improve."

 

I can't help but feel like you are just annoyed by how awful the feedback has been. You might ask then, "How much can I do? Than what I've already said numerous times?" My answer would be, you could PM each member who experienced the BST fiasco and say you're sorry for what happened and offer some remorse. promise them again the feedback system is coming back soon. I absolutely bet the member will feel MUCH more attached to this beautiful community and continued to support. You might get more club WRX members.

It's 100 times better than "feedback system will not solve bad BST experience." Even though you are absolutely correct in that point, it's just awful response.

 

 

 

[Gxgolfer]

I’m sorry, asking me to send a pm to each individual who has a bad BST transaction to apologize is a classic example of not understanding the facts.

 

Baseless attacks about monetary motivations, unfounded facts about traffic activity, motive and intent is wrong.

 

This is a two way street. I have spent hours responding politely to frustrations and updates. Despite that, it doesn’t seem enough and now I am being asked to be more remorseful for some, not all, who blatantly ignore rules or common sense.

 

I’m done. Its obvious that updates have no good outcomes so I will no longer be giving any updates in threads.

 

We will post whenever updates come out.

[Gxgolfer]

> @"Olde Maroon" said:

> > @Gxgolfer said:

> > > @wrbush31 said:

> > > > @Gxgolfer said:

> > > > Fair point but

> > > > Feedback is not always given or received for most transactions

> > > > Their is no validation of the feedback

> > > > The willingness to do things knowingly or unknowingly cannot be regulated.

> > > > It take time to build feedback unless again someone makes multiple accounts and works around the system.

> > >

> > > In the interest of making this place better in the future, I’m going to point out this is a smoke and mirrors distraction hoping we just go “oh, ok.”

> > >

> > > What you just described may as well say “what’s the point of feedback at all?!” Even if anything you said there was valid, I can still see if someone has six negatives even if there were a hundred other transactions they had that were good or bad.

> > >

> > > I understand your need to defend your kingdom here, but it would probably go over a hundred times better if you just flat out said “we really screwed up not having feedback at launch, we hear your feedback (pun not intended) and are working tirelessly to restore it.” And no, I don’t need to read another prose on the old system’s lack of stability so there just wasn’t time to develop the feedback function. Maybe that’s true, and fine, I’ll accept it, but that narrative isn’t holding water for most people.

> > >

> > > WRX dropped the ball on feedback, it’s causing very tangible problems for the Classified community, and possibly a noticeable long term detriment to WRX traffic and user base. Let’s just be honest about that and stop telling us we have it totally misconstrued. Most of us have been here awhile, we don’t.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I’m not sure what you are reading but we said many times that we made mistakes in this roll out, but understand this is the Internet and people just love to pile on.

> >

> > They claim erroneous motives and plain make stuff up. Look, we employ people that support families and the constant baseless attacks gets tiring and people do get sensitive as there is a difference between frustration and personal attacks to troll for a provocative response. There are multiple threads in the website and feedback forum where we go in depth about everything.

> >

> > When the previous feedback system was in place, these exact same issues occurred. I’m not entering a debate about the validity of the information or usage because ultimately it doesn’t matter, we just need to bring it back and working to do so.

> >

> > Did it help sure, but the lack of personal responsibility also has a place. We also have rules about payment methods and listings that are constantly broken as well for people to save a few bucks. It’s human nature for people to want to take risks.

> >

> > So let’s sum up:

> >

> > 1) We recognize and own we made multiple mistakes.

> >

> > 2) The old feedback scores are being restored as a read only and in final sprint

> > Roll outs are done in phase in different environments and finally is in staging phase and almost ready to production push.

> >

> > 3) The new system has started. The delays are attributed to priority of rolling out new theme, compatibility and also stages we want to roll out the new feedback system by. The initial build hours are in the 100 to 200 range.

> >

> >

> >

>

> If I may ask, why are you asking for us to report users who demand unprotected payment options (Venmo, F&F, etc.)? There was a thread (https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776387/venmo-and-feedback-questions#latest) about a user who posts BST ads with no mention of this requirement, but when you PM him to buy something he demands Venmo. I (and I would guess others) reported this behavior to the mods. This user still has his ad up in BST and he even refused to answer a direct inquiry about this in his sale thread.

>

> So, to summarize:

>

> 1. You have a rule prohibiting the practice of requiring Venmo/F&F/etc.

> 2. User explicitly violates the rule.

> 3. He openly admitted to violating this rule.

> 4. He was reported for this behavior in a thread and through the flagging feature (again, at the request of site admin).

> 5. His BST ad remains open and his account active, allowing him to continue to openly violate the rule at the direct risk to the community.

>

> How can you claim that we as a community aren't owning responsibility when this is a case of the community doing everything we can to prevent this practice while site admin doesn't do anything to enforce its own site rules?

 

The BST is ran by the membership via the mods. This is and has always been.

 

PM gwrxmod or post issues in the bst ad help forum if you need clarity on bst issues.

[Olde Maroon]

> @Gxgolfer said:

> > @"Olde Maroon" said:

> > > @Gxgolfer said:

> > > > @wrbush31 said:

> > > > > @Gxgolfer said:

> > > > > Fair point but

> > > > > Feedback is not always given or received for most transactions

> > > > > Their is no validation of the feedback

> > > > > The willingness to do things knowingly or unknowingly cannot be regulated.

> > > > > It take time to build feedback unless again someone makes multiple accounts and works around the system.

> > > >

> > > > In the interest of making this place better in the future, I’m going to point out this is a smoke and mirrors distraction hoping we just go “oh, ok.”

> > > >

> > > > What you just described may as well say “what’s the point of feedback at all?!” Even if anything you said there was valid, I can still see if someone has six negatives even if there were a hundred other transactions they had that were good or bad.

> > > >

> > > > I understand your need to defend your kingdom here, but it would probably go over a hundred times better if you just flat out said “we really screwed up not having feedback at launch, we hear your feedback (pun not intended) and are working tirelessly to restore it.” And no, I don’t need to read another prose on the old system’s lack of stability so there just wasn’t time to develop the feedback function. Maybe that’s true, and fine, I’ll accept it, but that narrative isn’t holding water for most people.

> > > >

> > > > WRX dropped the ball on feedback, it’s causing very tangible problems for the Classified community, and possibly a noticeable long term detriment to WRX traffic and user base. Let’s just be honest about that and stop telling us we have it totally misconstrued. Most of us have been here awhile, we don’t.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I’m not sure what you are reading but we said many times that we made mistakes in this roll out, but understand this is the Internet and people just love to pile on.

> > >

> > > They claim erroneous motives and plain make stuff up. Look, we employ people that support families and the constant baseless attacks gets tiring and people do get sensitive as there is a difference between frustration and personal attacks to troll for a provocative response. There are multiple threads in the website and feedback forum where we go in depth about everything.

> > >

> > > When the previous feedback system was in place, these exact same issues occurred. I’m not entering a debate about the validity of the information or usage because ultimately it doesn’t matter, we just need to bring it back and working to do so.

> > >

> > > Did it help sure, but the lack of personal responsibility also has a place. We also have rules about payment methods and listings that are constantly broken as well for people to save a few bucks. It’s human nature for people to want to take risks.

> > >

> > > So let’s sum up:

> > >

> > > 1) We recognize and own we made multiple mistakes.

> > >

> > > 2) The old feedback scores are being restored as a read only and in final sprint

> > > Roll outs are done in phase in different environments and finally is in staging phase and almost ready to production push.

> > >

> > > 3) The new system has started. The delays are attributed to priority of rolling out new theme, compatibility and also stages we want to roll out the new feedback system by. The initial build hours are in the 100 to 200 range.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > If I may ask, why are you asking for us to report users who demand unprotected payment options (Venmo, F&F, etc.)? There was a thread (https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1776387/venmo-and-feedback-questions#latest) about a user who posts BST ads with no mention of this requirement, but when you PM him to buy something he demands Venmo. I (and I would guess others) reported this behavior to the mods. This user still has his ad up in BST and he even refused to answer a direct inquiry about this in his sale thread.

> >

> > So, to summarize:

> >

> > 1. You have a rule prohibiting the practice of requiring Venmo/F&F/etc.

> > 2. User explicitly violates the rule.

> > 3. He openly admitted to violating this rule.

> > 4. He was reported for this behavior in a thread and through the flagging feature (again, at the request of site admin).

> > 5. His BST ad remains open and his account active, allowing him to continue to openly violate the rule at the direct risk to the community.

> >

> > How can you claim that we as a community aren't owning responsibility when this is a case of the community doing everything we can to prevent this practice while site admin doesn't do anything to enforce its own site rules?

>

> The BST is ran by the membership via the mods. This is and has always been.

>

> PM gwrxmod or post issues in the bst ad help forum if you need clarity on bst issues.

 

This is a complete deflection. This is YOUR site. I am pointing out an issue that was raised by a member in the section of the site reserved for BST disputes/issues. This issue was then reported to YOUR site mods to be handled through the function set up on your site. Nothing was done. I am now asking you about whether you are going to take responsibility and see something is done about the issue, and you are telling me to contact the same mods that declined to act when it was reported.

 

You talk about taking responsibility, but you are refusing to do so here on your site. The community has raised an issue, both generally and in this specific instance. You have deflected responsibility back on both levels.

 

Why would you not contact one of the mods yourself and get something done? I repeat, we have already reported the issue and nothing was done. Now I am moving the issue up the ladder to you and you are refusing to act. I can't suspend or ban a user for the violation. I can't pull his BST ads or prevent him from pressuring naive users into using Venmo. There is currently no feedback system to notify the community about his behavior. I am doing literally everything I can to help fix this issue, and you are refusing to do anything at all. Which one of us isn't taking responsibility?

[GoIrish17]

Maroon, obviously this is not even worth wasting energy on. I can’t even express how disappointed I am in how this has been handled.

[larciel]

I agree. It's very disappointing to say the least.

If you look at the [new forum update thread](https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1758750/updated-announcement-new-forum-software-and-what-to-expect-old-layout-will-be-back-june/p34 "https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1758750/updated-announcement-new-forum-software-and-what-to-expect-old-layout-will-be-back-june/p34") there are more people disappointed with some of the promises/answers by the Mods.

 

I guess only options we have is to wait or look for other sites. Problem is, there is none like wrx..

[Olde Maroon]

> @GoIrish17 said:

> Maroon, obviously this is not even worth wasting energy on. I can’t even express how disappointed I am in how this has been handled.

 

I know. I'm not attacking him, calling anyone names, asking for anything outrageous. It is simply, "Here is a problem. The community has exhausted its options for remedy. Please assist us in keeping your site safe." And yet still @Gxgolfer cannot even respond to my inquiry. It is just so disrespectful and dismissive.

[Gxgolfer]

This is what was posted by the mods

 

Apr 5, 2019 3:17pm edited Jun 11, 2019 6:44am 104.237.80.107#1

**...or any other payment service/method that does not provide buyer protection. We will remove ads that advertises these forms of payment.

**

Report anyone who uses an excuse like "My Paypal account is frozen."

 

I consulted the mods and this is their response:

 

There is nothing in the rules that states people cannot ask for Venmo payments when negotiating transactions, similar to asking for PayPal friends. The post states to not require or advertise those payment options in ads. It is highly discouraged and a warning was posted. The post does state that ads cannot offer that form of payment in listings and asking for ads to be reported for removal.

 

Mods are removing ads that violate the posting rules. We cannot regulate how people handle transactions.

 

The site is not responsible for member to member BST transactions. The disputed and deal/no deal forum are setup for members to resolve issues among themselves. It is moderated by the members via the mods for the members. The rules were setup by members.

[Olde Maroon]

> @Gxgolfer said:

> This is what was posted by the mods

>

> Apr 5, 2019 3:17pm edited Jun 11, 2019 6:44am 104.237.80.107#1

> **...or any other payment service/method that does not provide buyer protection. We will remove ads that advertises these forms of payment.

> **

> Report anyone who uses an excuse like "My Paypal account is frozen."

>

> I consulted the mods and this is their response:

>

> There is nothing in the rules that states people cannot ask for Venmo payments when negotiating transactions, similar to asking for PayPal friends. The post states to not require or advertise those payment options in ads. It is highly discouraged and a warning was posted. The post does state that ads cannot offer that form of payment in listings and asking for ads to be reported for removal.

>

> Mods are removing ads that violate the posting rules. We cannot regulate how people handle transactions.

>

> The site is not responsible for member to member BST transactions. The disputed and deal/no deal forum are setup for members to resolve issues among themselves. It is moderated by the members via the mods for the members. The rules were setup by members.

 

Thank you for looking into this further - I appreciate the time you took to assist us in understanding this situation. Can you explain why you (or the mods) are asking asking us to report people who are asking for personal payments/Venmo if it isn't a violation of the rules? That part doesn't make sense to me...

[Gxgolfer]

It says to report people who posts it in their ads or who you suspect are scamming people. Every person using Venmo is not a scammer. It is not recommended to use as was stated. Advertisement in ads is the asks. The example given is a warning to look out for and report.

 

It does not say report every user asking for Venmo payment.

[Olde Maroon]

> @Gxgolfer said:

> It says to report people who posts it in their ads or who you suspect are scamming people. Every person using Venmo is not a scammer. It is not recommended to use as was stated. Advertisement in ads is the asks. The example given is a warning to look out for and report.

>

> It does not say report every user asking for Venmo payment.

 

That's not actually what it says, but I am glad to know the intent even if it doesn't say that. Maybe that pinned post could be edited to reflect the specifically what is and is not prohibited. Again, I genuinely appreciate your taking the time to respond to my questions about this. I am one of the people trying to help maintain the healthy and positive atmosphere that has been a part of GolfWRX for so long (nearly a decade for me). It does mean something to get answers and clarity of these issues. Take care and have a good night.

[drake47]

I look at the BST this way. GolfWRX provides us a pool to swim in for FREE. It is your choice if you want to swim or not, but there is no lifeguard on duty and you need to make sure you know how to swim.

[rukahs]

> @drake47 said:

> I look at the BST this way. GolfWRX provides us a pool to swim in for FREE. It is your choice if you want to swim or not, but there is no lifeguard on duty and you need to make sure you know how to swim.

 

love that :lol:

 

You missed off to beware of the sharks.... they'll bite.

[Yanki01]

> @M4TT said:

> > @drake47 said:

> > I look at the BST this way. GolfWRX provides us a pool to swim in for FREE. It is your choice if you want to swim or not, but there is no lifeguard on duty and you need to make sure you know how to swim.

>

> love that :lol:

>

> You missed off to beware of the sharks.... they'll bite.

 

yup. I mean i know how to swim but it's like i moved over to shallow waters to get away from the sharks. now it seems like WRX dumped us back into the deep end and more sharks arrived.

 

[Olde Maroon]

> @drake47 said:

> I look at the BST this way. GolfWRX provides us a pool to swim in for FREE. It is your choice if you want to swim or not, but there is no lifeguard on duty and you need to make sure you know how to swim.

 

That's a great metaphor and all, but we're currently in a place where anyone can pay $5 to come to the pool and pull new swimmers under water to drown. If there aren't basic safeguards/lifeguards in place, the entire place starts to feel really unsafe and unpleasant, even for Michael Effing Phelps.

[straightshot7]

> @"Olde Maroon" said:

> > @drake47 said:

> > I look at the BST this way. GolfWRX provides us a pool to swim in for FREE. It is your choice if you want to swim or not, but there is no lifeguard on duty and you need to make sure you know how to swim.

>

> That's a great metaphor and all, but we're currently in a place where anyone can pay $5 to come to the pool and pull new swimmers under water to drown. If there aren't basic safeguards/lifeguards in place, the entire place starts to feel really unsafe and unpleasant, even for Michael Effing Phelps.

 

Except you don't have to get in the pool. You're free to take your towel and sunscreen and go home :)

 

And if you consider the feedback system to be a great lifeguard, it will be back soon and then you can comfortably return to the pool if you choose to.

[dcmidnight]

Moved to the proper forum. The thread will show as locked in the DND form but it is not, that is just a redirect link.

[SubaruWRX]

No explanation or apology from the seller? Just the refund and stiffed you in return shipping costs? Please leave appropriate feedback. Oh wait, you can’t...

[typhoonoid]

> @SubaruWRX said:

> No explanation or apology from the seller? Just the refund and stiffed you in return shipping costs? Please leave appropriate feedback. Oh wait, you can’t...

 

Yea he refused to post on this thread even though he has been invited several times.

[Gxgolfer]

> @SubaruWRX said:

> No explanation or apology from the seller? Just the refund and stiffed you in return shipping costs? Please leave appropriate feedback. Oh wait, you can’t...

 

Some people leave feedback in the persons profile page.

[BiggErn]

Feedback was a pain to participate in on mobile before so I’m sure a lot just ignored it. I also think what the guy was saying before is even though you have to build up some sort of reputation and participate in the community before one can sell in the bst that was waived, and appears to be the case now, if you pay a few dollars. I can see how some would see that as a money grab at the risk of vetted members.

[dcmidnight]

> @BiggErn said:

> Feedback was a pain to participate in on mobile before so I’m sure a lot just ignored it. I also think what the guy was saying before is even though you have to build up some sort of reputation and participate in the community before one can sell in the bst that was waived, and appears to be the case now, if you pay a few dollars. I can see how some would see that as a money grab at the risk of vetted members.

 

The pay to post option(s) have been available for the last 15 years or so. Anyone that thinks this is a new retirement plan of sorts for gxgolfer has not been paying attention.