The over the top cause nobody talks about?

[bonvivantva]

So I finally broke down and took a lesson. I've changed my swing a bunch of times over the past two years, but I'd just come back from a fall golf trip in which I played 5 rounds of golf and I scored pretty consistently in the mid to high 90s, which is pretty typical for me. I figured it was a good time for a lesson since I wasn't working on anything in particular and I'd just put in a bunch of actual rounds of golf. My instructor took some video and gave me some trackman numbers, and my path was outside in. I think .5 out to in is the best I managed when trying my absolute best to swing in to out. At the end of the lesson, the instructor told me to work on having my shaft more vertical at the top of the backswing, and to keep my feet planted (I lift my left heel) to try to calm down my OTT. He also said to keep my trail foot planted longer, because he thought I was shifting my weight too early. I remember how he seemed confused by my inability to fix my path. He kept looking at slow motion video and saying how the great things looked, and he genuinely seemed at a loss for what was going wrong. Since that lesson I've hit about a thousand range balls, screwed up my back, and blistered my hands trying to fix my path. I watched a ton of videos on fixing OTT, got my dad to come out to the range with me and help, but nothing worked. Today I went to the range and about 70 balls into the 80 I had time to hit, I somehow figured out that my upper body was lunging forward to where my head got in front of the ball. I also think my upper body was getting tilted towards the target. Just holding the club with your head in front of the ball with some forward tilt makes it impossible to rotate the club from the inside out. I'm not saying that's my only problem, but I went from hitting double crosses or slices to hitting high draws with my last ten balls.

 

So I get back to work and google things about keeping your head behind the ball and OTT and while I found plenty about keeping your head behind the ball, I couldn't find a single video or article about tilting your head past the ball being a cause of OTT. This has to be out there right? I tried searching for with all kinds of terms like losing spine angle, forward tilt, etc., but most of the OTT videos out there are just talking about skipping stones, driving the right elbow, etc. I found one video that specifically addresses what I'm talking about, but the title of the video is about slicing:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxpK2EgA87Q

I get that slicing is a symptom of an OTT path, but you'd think that losing spine angle would be a pretty common cause of OTT. I can't tell you how many videos I've watched where someone is talking about opening the clubface and compensating with an OTT move, but not once did I see anything about tilting forward, getting my head in front of the ball, or losing spine angle. Am I crazy? Why aren't more people talking about this?

My second question is about the instructor. I watched myself swing in a mirror both the old way and when I was trying to keep my head behind the ball. The visual difference between the two swings is much more subtle that I expected, but you can still tell I'm tilted to the target prior to impact. My dad said that my head was, "moving all over the place" in my swing, but just trying to quiet my head movement in general didn't work for me. My dad at least said something about my head which I think was because I was basically throwing my upper body forward so much I ended up tilting towards the target. I don't see how the instructor could have missed it. I have a video from my lesson in which the instructor is looking at a rear view of my swing. You can see the shaft of my club parallels my trail forearm, and he talks about how that is what you want. But from the rear view, you can't see that I'm losing my spine angle and tilting forward. The bay did have a front view camera, but the instructor never played the video from the front view while he was talking about my swing. Even without video, I feel that the tilt is something he could have picked up on. I'm not going to call this guy out, but don't you think he should have noticed my flaw? I like the guy and he is well regarded, but I'm hesitant to spend money on lessons given that he didn't identify what seems to be a pretty obvious flaw in my swing.

[MPStrat]

Upper body lunging gets talked about some but not enough. In an era of the most popular teachers posting their best students swings on IG, you're not going to see a lot of upper body lunge fixes. To add to that, we are now hearing that a steady head is bad, and that everyone should copy annika's head movement. Glad you found your issue.

[kobe123]

MPStrat is 100% right. The upper body lunge and head getting in front of the ball will cause an over the top move. This has happened to me after trying to go to a new swing method. I'm currently working on getting the shaft more vertical and keeping the head behind the ball. It's swallowed my path out significantly. This has to do with your eyes. If you want to hop over to my thread about my lesson with Dan you will see a significant difference! Work on feeling your head move backwards in the downswing. It most likely will not move backwards at all but it will help stay behind the ball which helps with shaft lean and shallowness. GOOD LUCK!

[GLF4EVR]

First, you need to be congratulated for your work to keep at it before you discovered the fault. I am guilty of the same thing & it affects me the same way. My best way to address this is to focus on the ball before I start my swing. There is another post about focusing on the target or the ball. My routine is all on the target up to the point before pulling the trigger. Then I focus on starring at the ball to watch the club head go thru it. This helps keep my head still, shoulders square, and seems to keep my hips from rotating thru ahead of time. This season I did not get out as much due to having a ton of call at work. However a few times at the end of the season I could actually have a slight feel of "press". That is where at impact it feels like you have your body pressed up against a wall. I have not had that feeling since golfing as a teenager. Wanted to post this just to maybe reinforce that you may be your best teacher. Keep up the good work!

 

[bonvivantva]

You know, I finally sprung for a lesson because I was spending about $200 a month on range balls and not getting any better. I was thinking the lessons might actually save me some money, so now I'm not so sure. I'm sure there is plenty this guy can help me with, so I'll probably try some more lessons even though I feel like he missed a fairly noticeable flaw.

[aramirez24]

Good thread. I also struggle with over the top and all my focus is on my lower body rotation. Never thought about how the upper body lunge would limit the ability to get in to out. Makes alot of sense.

[SNIPERBBB]

To me it's just simply sequencing and syncing everything else up.

Usually either the lower or upper body gets to impact position while the rest of the body is still near where is was at start of the downswing.

 

[davep043]

Ask him directly about the issue you believe he missed. If he doesn't answer satisfactorily, find someone else. Its that simple.

But remember, your self-diagnosis may not be correct. You don't have a lot of skills diagnosing and correcting golf swings, like most of us don't. Your head didn't move all by itself, it moved as a function of what the rest of your body is doing. The same with your out-to-in path, that's a symptom of whatever else is going on in your swing. Good instructors observe the symptoms, and then identify the root cause, before recommending changes. He may explain that he did notice your head moving, and that his recommendation, if you could have followed them, would have helped your head to stay steadier. He may explain that your head movement wasn't the most important thing to fix right away, that he'd have gotten there once you incorporated the first change. Maybe you two need improved communication, or a different style of explanation, maybe you need different feels or drills to accomplish the change, or maybe you need a different instructor.

[Millbrook]

Check this out;

 

[LyinEye]

Not all instructors are created equal.

You've got a lot going on upstairs that doesn't need to be there. If your instructor told you a slice only comes from an out and over move, time to move on. About the head, being more still overall is fine, but not totally a rigid requirement. Knudson was a pretty sharp ball striker and his thoughts: Can The Head Move?

 

 

 

[bonvivantva]

Right at the beginning of the video, and then again at about 11 minutes in, he explains exactly my problem. I get my body too far forward/past the ball and/or tilted to target. That gets the weight of the club outside the plane and I'm done. I'm definitely going to rewatch before I go to the range next time. Thanks for the link!

[bonvivantva]

My dad was talking about sequencing and tempo. While I believe those things are important, I really don't think perfect sequencing or tempo would have helped if I kept lunging forward. That lunge and tilt was making a good path impossible, and I strongly believe that I could not fix that problem without addressing it directly first.

[bonvivantva]

My instructor said that plenty of good players lift their left heel during the golf swing, and that it isn't a problem in general, but he hypothesized that it could be part of what was making me throw the club outside the path. He told me to keep my feet planted to try to fix the path. I did that, but to no avail. He also told me to keep my weight on my trail foot/leg longer, which probably would mitigate my weight shift forward, but I wasn't able to put that advice into practice particularly well. Once I realized that my eyes were getting up past the ball and from there an inside path was impossible, my contact instantly improved. I wasn't hitting perfect shots, but my contact was just way way better. Even if I didn't understand what he was working me towards, I feel like a little explanation of what he was seeing and what he wanted me to do would have helped me get there a lot faster. I do intend to see him again, so I'll try to explain that a little more detail or explanation of what he is seeing and working towards would help me out.

[glk]

This instructor isn’t taking video and showing/ explaining your issue(s)? Okay I see he took video but it doesn’t sound like he ever showed it to you and discussed it. Lessons I’ve had from Monte and iteach all involved video with discussion on main item to work on - cause and effect with what needed to be done to improve. You should video yourself, face on, and if you do upper body lunge the I’d move on for this instructor - that a pretty major flaw to miss. Him never using a face on is another red flag to me.

[SNIPERBBB]

Of course it could. If you try to start your downswing with your arms/shoulders(whichever thought works for you) it would almost be impossible for you do do the lunge.

[bonvivantva]

Maybe I haven't explained my issue clearly enough. I think my sequence may be OK, or at least, not my biggest/primary problem. I'm losing my posture/spine angle when my weight shifts, and the weight shift can start even before you get to the top of the backswing. When I can keep my upper body behind the ball, but still shift my weight at the same time, and more or less the same amount, I make much better contact. It's not so much that I'm shifting my weight early or late, it's that my upper body is moving too far forward and I'm losing the reverse-k tilt I had at address.

 

I can't tell you how long I tried to hold off my shoulders or keep my back to the target longer, etc., to fix this path issue. I think the bottom line is that if you lose your spine angle the way I have been doing, you literally can't come from the inside. To me, this is the heart of this post. I think there are probably a lot of guys out there struggling with path issue, a slice, etc., that keep trying the traditional fixes and using common advice, but if they don't understand spine angle and the consequences of getting your head/upper body on the target side of the ball, they will have a very hard time fixing the problem. I'm not saying that lunging forward or losing spine angle can't be fixed using other advice or approaches, but I am saying that focusing on sequencing or any other valid approach is an indirect way to fix the loss of spine angle/upper body past the point of impact.

[davep043]

I'm no instructor, but I think its quite possible that your "lunge" is caused by sequence issues. I know, you think your sequence is OK, but you're not exactly an expert in evaluating these things. Another potential issue, perhaps your spine angle gets tilted towards the target in your backswing, because you slide your hips back (away from the target) while your head stays steady. You're setting yourself to lunge if you do that. Maybe you need to keep your lower body centered, rather than slide in the backswing. I don't know, I'm no expert. Go find an expert, one that you trust.

[bonvivantva]

The instructor I found is listed a top instructor in my state from a golf publication. He seems pretty decent, but I can't say that first lesson helped much. This is my third instructor, and I haven't had a particularly positive experience yet. I'm not giving up, but I can't say I trust the guy or have a high degree of confidence in him.

I've seen myself on video and my instructor was saying that I look good at the top of my backswing. I don't think I'm doing anything too wrong until the weight shift. At that point, I'm throwing my upper body well past the ball and tipping forward past the ball/past the point of impact. I don't think I have a reverse pivot and I'm definitely not falling back (quite the opposite), it's just that instead of shifting my weight primarily with my lower body, I'm getting my upper body even more forward to the point that I lose my spine angle.

All I know for sure is that when I started focusing on keeping my head/eyes just behind the ball at impact (I still move slightly off the ball and then come back with the weight shift, I just don't let my upper body/head come quite as far forward), the contact has been night and day better. I hit hundreds of ball doing what the instructor told me (keep feet planted, keep weight on trail leg, etc., but no matter what the club kept getting outside the plane. If the instructor had me return to my head past the ball tilted slightly to the target position, and then asked me to turn/pivot and hit the inside of the ball, I would have immediately realized there was no way that was possible. You just can't do it with your spine in that position. The video Millbrook posted explains it better than I can. My sequence may be what is causing me to push off too early or even my shoulders may be throwing my weight too far forward too early, or whatever, but I've watched hundreds of videos on sequence to no avail. What has helped is realizing that I need to keep my spine angle tilted slightly away, and I can't slide/drift/throw my weight too far forward or it throws the club outside the plane. Maybe we're getting too far into semantics. I decided to take lessons because I'm wasting a lot of time and money on the range. I just want to improve more efficiently. If I'd been told something similar to, or even shown that video Millbrook posted, I think I would have saved hours and hours and over a thousand range balls. Hopefully more people see this post, realize how spine angle is tied to path, maybe watch that video, and save a bunch of time, money, and range balls.

[bonvivantva]

I was just thinking of another thing. I can't tell you how many times at the range I've held the club at parallel point two, slightly inside of on plane, and then tried to figure out why I can't get the face to come into the ball from the inside. I realize now that I was leaning forward past the ball. You just can't pivot into the ball from that position. Even if you hold the club back on plane at PP2, when the club comes around the spine that is tilted forward and past the ball, it still either massively chunks, or reroutes outside to in to at least make some kind of glancing contact. It's so clear now, but at the range I just kept putting the club there trying to figure out what was wrong, and I just couldn't figure it out. I don't even know/remember how I figured it out. I just kind of put it together, started focusing on where my head ended up at contact, and things took off.

When I started that first lesson, I showed the instructor a few swings, and then told him the reason I was there is that my miss is low and left. I thought that I come over the top and no matter how much I looked at videos and went to the range, I couldn't figure it out. The trackman shows my plane was outside in. But I needed him to tell me why. Since that lesson I bet I've spent 8-12 hours at the range, $400 on range balls. A better understanding of spine tilt could help so many beginners/people that are struggling.

[JDIL]

Pay iteach or Monte $50-75 for an online review. The fact your instructor couldn't figure it out is a huge flag IMO.

[SNIPERBBB]

Just remember spin tilt like the myriad of other things in the swing is a result of prior actions.

You can't force spine title by focusing on it.

Perhaps youre trying to actively shift your weight instead of a more passive move. I struggled a lot with this coming out of my baseball years.

[bonvivantva]

I completely agree with you. I am frustrated though because really for years, but especially this past month, I've known I tend to have an over the top swing. I've known the club head gets outside my path. I've tried everything I could think of to fix it, but when it comes down to it, it's pretty simple. If you setup at address and tilt towards the target, an easy swing will be over the top. If you keep your back as straight (not tilted towards the target or away) as you can, the path is pretty neutral. If you tilt back far enough away from the target, you can see the path start to work inside out. I'm not saying that basic understanding will immediately result in a good swing, but that knowledge will at least help you know to avoid tilting the wrong direction. I've basically been using process of elimination, and very poorly. Maybe I'm casting, maybe I'm regripping, maybe my shoulders start the downswing, maybe my setup is wrong, maybe I'm spinning out my hips, and on and on. I don't know magically have a good swing, but no matter what I do now, I do know that I won't have any kind of consistency of contact by losing my spine angle and tilting towards the target. I also can't let my head drift to the target side of the ball.

The only point I'm really trying to make is that you can google over the top as much as you want, but the axiom about spine angle and path is buried if not practically hidden. There is plenty about how to shallow the club, sequence, drills like putting a water bottle or headcover past your ball to physically keep you from swinging OTT, but people only hint about spine angle. Think about the videos in which instructors talk about skipping a stone. Those make sense because to skip a stone, you maintain tilt away from the target with some side bend. Same thing with the drill where you throw a ball at the target line or throw an alignment rod. Has anyone ever seen one of those videos where they specifically discuss reverse tilt or spine angle? It's not a complex concept, but unless you google it directly, it's hard to find anyone talking about it. I really thing a lot of people struggling with an OTT swing would benefit from this concept being spelled out for them. I'm surprised OTT specific videos don't explicitly state the relationship between spine angle and path.

[DaveGoodrich]

I also struggle with a natural out-to-in path. Possibly related to the OP's concept: one small, and easy (for me) to implement swing thought that has helped me recently is just to think "keep your head back" just at the instant of my takeaway. I don't have to think about "maintaining my spine angle" through the whole swing. Really, it is just making sure the "first movement" of my head isn't towards the hole. It seems to result in better contact, probably because I have put myself in a better position at the top.

[glk]

 

[stingerfade]

Sounds like your starting from the top by spinning your shoulders out and over instead of feeling lower body lead. It’s a sequencing thing I have same death move and very hard to correct. Mine is getting better by making a better backswing, setting me up for proper downswing instead of corrections to a bad backswing

[MPStrat]

 

 

[farmer]

What OP is describing sounds like a reverse pivot, more than a cause of an OTT move.

[GLF4EVR]

I live in an area where there are no instructors so have to figure things out myself. This season was a limited one due to work. Finally was able to get out more often when August rolled around. Was having a hard time with my weight transfer....which also gets my body out of position for a "proper" strike on the ball. I started carrying a 10" section of 1/2" pipe. I am right handed so I would place the pipe underneath the outside edge of my left foot and have at some practice swings to get the feel back. Towards the end of the season it was starting to come around where I was getting par & birdie opportunities instead of just hoping to make a scrambling par. Just wanted to toss that out for Bonvivantan.......ya never know what might also work for someone else.

[Hawkeye77]

Easy to get frustrated for sure, but there are students and sometimes there are "those students". I'm not inclined to pick on the coach too much yet, just reading the posts of the OP and everything he keeps adding and all of his "analysis" suggests more to me about where all the red flags are coming from.

Instructor supposedly doesn't diagnose what the OP "knows" to be the issue and the rest seems to follow a predictable pattern all too often seen.

And don't dare suggest he isn't understanding the value or nature of proper sequencing and cause/effect. It's all spine angle and if you aren't talking about that (whether you should or shouldn't and in what context) he isn't listening. Pretty much if you aren't an instructor accepting every bit of self-diagnosis he tells you is "it", you aren't worth it. Not sure I even accept what is described about what the instructor's part (although pretty minor, lol) in all this is based on the endless narrative about every possible swing idea under the sun.

 

 

[bonvivantva]

This has helped me a lot as well. I don't think about spine angle either. As long as I don't let my head drift past the ball I'm ok, probably because it's hard to stay behind the ball and lose your tilt.