Scotty Cameron 009 vs. Scratch 726 Putter

[scratchswinger]

I think what Scratch and Ari are doing is pretty cool, not for copying the head. But for making it public and advertising exactly what they are doing. Scotty has copied other designs ten times over so what's wrong with a little taste of his own medicine?

[finalist]

On a positive note... Hand making an anser style is very difficult to do right. James did a masterful job for a 100% handmade. Hitting all the angles by hand is very very very time consuming. Byron once showed me step by step how a Bridgport milled handmade is done and I was blown away by how much time and planning the process takes. You very quickly see why the cost is what is.
Do we know what type of mill he uses?

[rbhan12]

Very interested to hear about this lawsuit coming Scratch's way from Scotty

[Mitchell]

Just looked back over the pictures and as stated above, work done is very impressive, no doubt James knows his craft. Will be watching with interest for resolution of any potential litigation due to somewhat dubious origination of the 009.

[Snufles]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1392048354' post='8636485']
On a positive note... Hand making an anser style is very difficult to do right. James did a masterful job for a 100% handmade. Hitting all the angles by hand is very very very time consuming. Byron once showed me step by step how a Bridgport milled handmade is done and I was blown away by how much time and planning the process takes. You very quickly see why the cost is what is.
Do we know what type of mill he uses?
[/quote]

Yeah I completely agree to do those bumpers takes a ridiculous amount of time and when you think that the original was a casting. Couldn't imagine how long it took Byron to figure out how to do it so well in the first place. Those of you thinking that this should be in the $349.99 bin should try and hand file one of these little beauties. When you are done that flip it over and try your hand at replicating that face mill.

[BogeyDog11]

[quote name='rbhan12' timestamp='1392058304' post='8637911']
Very interested to hear about this lawsuit coming Scratch's way from Scotty
[/quote]

Don't hold your breath.

[jmac13]

I'm a member at TCC too because I love the old school carbon Newports from yester year such as the classic line, AOP, TeI's, and mil-specs. However, I am a rebel because my avatar pic is of my plum brown home refinished AOP. They say you can't discuss any finishes not done by the custom shop, not use a picture of one in your avatar.

[jmac13]

[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1392060607' post='8638189']
[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1392048354' post='8636485']
On a positive note... Hand making an anser style is very difficult to do right. James did a masterful job for a 100% handmade. Hitting all the angles by hand is very very very time consuming. Byron once showed me step by step how a Bridgport milled handmade is done and I was blown away by how much time and planning the process takes. You very quickly see why the cost is what is.
Do we know what type of mill he uses?
[/quote]

Yeah I completely agree to do those bumpers takes a ridiculous amount of time and when you think that the original was a casting. Couldn't imagine how long it took Byron to figure out how to do it so well in the first place. Those of you thinking that this should be in the $349.99 bin should try and hand file one of these little beauties. When you are done that flip it over and try your hand at replicating that face mill.
[/quote]

Yeah, if you look at any pictures of the original John Byron DH-11, the bumpers are a little more square than rounded. He has perfected the process since he has gone more"custom" than retail.

[stage1350]

[quote name='BogeyDog11' timestamp='1392071427' post='8639461']
[quote name='rbhan12' timestamp='1392058304' post='8637911']
Very interested to hear about this lawsuit coming Scratch's way from Scotty
[/quote]

Don't hold your breath.
[/quote]

Hopefully the process server will wear white gloves, a phantom mask, and utilize a fog lamp and Andrew Lloyd Webber for dramatic effect.

[tangojay]

[quote name='Scotty1140' timestamp='1392037195' post='8635369']
Not surprising the TCC thread was locked before anything else came out. Wouldn't want the hardcore fans over there thinking the 009 wasn't Scotty's original design.

And yeah TJ, I'm also a bit surprised at a few posters actually acknowledging such.
[/quote]

I am shocked they locked,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I mean,,, surprised? ,,,,,,,,,,, Hey I have a couple of Cameron's, a center-shafted Beached Prototype and a mint TEi3, don't have anything against the product,,,,,

[ckay]

TCC was awesome when Doug ran the site. We talked putters of all kinds but Camerons of course were the main theme. After the takeover, it really did lose a lot of what made that site great. It is evident as the OG crew with years of knowledge just called it quits and is nowhere to be found.

I mean a few of the really good guys from the old TCC crew rep other makers now including one who ran pretty deep in the Cameron circle...that should tell you something.

Somebody also posted about Table Rock losing distribution of tour Cammies...whether that is true or not, it isn't the first time that has happened and won't be the last. Rand didn't get any for a period of time. Now if true the Butlers are getting shut out now.

[ckay]

TCC was awesome when Doug ran the site. We talked putters of all kinds but Camerons of course were the main theme. After the takeover, it really did lose a lot of what made that site great. It is evident as the OG crew with years of knowledge just called it quits and is nowhere to be found.

I mean a few of the really good guys from the old TCC crew rep other makers now including one who ran pretty deep in the Cameron circle...that should tell you something.

Somebody also posted about Table Rock losing distribution of tour Cammies...whether that is true or not, it isn't the first time that has happened and won't be the last. Rand didn't get any for a period of time. Now if true the Butlers are getting shut out now.

[GwrxMod]

This thread will be cleaned up and the personal back and forth attacks will not be tolerated.

Criticizing either company is fine but when it bleeds over into personal attacks, warnings will be handed out.

Thank you for your understanding.

[finalist]

[quote name='Arafel' timestamp='1392138975' post='8644605']
[quote name='jmac13' timestamp='1392080280' post='8640499']
I'm a member at TCC too because I love the old school carbon Newports from yester year such as the classic line, AOP, TeI's, and mil-specs. However, I am a rebel because my avatar pic is of my plum brown home refinished AOP. They say you can't discuss any finishes not done by the custom shop, not use a picture of one in your avatar.
[/quote]

Careful, they will figure out who you are and ban you. Any criticism of TCC or Cameron here, no matter how minor, will get you banned there.
[/quote]

I also learned recently how closely Scotty himself follows ALL discussions about him. The marketing genius is not because he is so creative, but because he controls his image so well. Think about a few things... What other industry or company can take what is a mistake and turn it into profit? Mushrooming stamps - IMO are a sign of pressing too hard and should be shaved down, but Scotty says they are valuable. Double stamps - clearly an error, but regarded by Scotty as a cool artifact. Forcing distributors to stop selling other boutique names, telling TCC to stop talking about TP Mill's death a few years ago, outsourced finishes, etc etc etc... HI SCOTTY!

[Medson]

Really? It took him a year to twist a neck and stamp a putter, and he has time to read these stuff?

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1392143870' post='8645187']

I also learned recently how closely Scotty himself follows ALL discussions about him. The marketing genius is not because he is so creative, but because he controls his image so well. Think about a few things... What other industry or company can take what is a mistake and turn it into profit? Mushrooming stamps - IMO are a sign of pressing too hard and should be shaved down, but Scotty says they are valuable. Double stamps - clearly an error, but regarded by Scotty as a cool artifact. Forcing distributors to stop selling other boutique names, telling TCC to stop talking about TP Mill's death a few years ago, outsourced finishes, etc etc etc... HI SCOTTY!
[/quote]

[Stu-Co]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1392043684' post='8635937']
Dear Pondy,

It's funny how CAD files can be saved and reused.

Your friend,
DH-11
[/quote]
[color=#008000]Or easily be copied.... this is a little different, although I have other files that I've made that are almost identical.[/color]
[attachment=2064773:IMG-20140208-00790 - Copy.jpg]

[rbhan12]

just looked back at the original post and noticed the version roughed out by CNC is $550? I thought that price used to be $750? Much more reasonable and will definitely place an order as soon as I have that money

[dieselmd]

[attachment=2066273:Newport Select..jpg]

I think that this is fairly close to the 009.

[TooMuchAwesome]

[quote name='dieselmd' timestamp='1392233451' post='8653567']
[attachment=2066273:Newport Select..jpg]

I think that this is fairly close to the 009.
[/quote]

Agreed

[BogeyDog11]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1392143870' post='8645187']
[quote name='Arafel' timestamp='1392138975' post='8644605']
[quote name='jmac13' timestamp='1392080280' post='8640499']
I'm a member at TCC too because I love the old school carbon Newports from yester year such as the classic line, AOP, TeI's, and mil-specs. However, I am a rebel because my avatar pic is of my plum brown home refinished AOP. They say you can't discuss any finishes not done by the custom shop, not use a picture of one in your avatar.
[/quote]

Careful, they will figure out who you are and ban you. Any criticism of TCC or Cameron here, no matter how minor, will get you banned there.
[/quote]

I also learned recently how closely Scotty himself follows ALL discussions about him. The marketing genius is not because he is so creative, but because he controls his image so well. Think about a few things... What other industry or company can take what is a mistake and turn it into profit? Mushrooming stamps - IMO are a sign of pressing too hard and should be shaved down, but Scotty says they are valuable. Double stamps - clearly an error, but regarded by Scotty as a cool artifact. Forcing distributors to stop selling other boutique names, telling TCC to stop talking about TP Mill's death a few years ago, outsourced finishes, etc etc etc... HI SCOTTY!
[/quote]

I remember when a couple of members thought an "Inspired by TP Mills" putter was in order and I think their memberships were dumped almost immediately and the postings removed. [b]Don[/b] no doubt has an account at TCC but he does not get involved in any conversations with the commoner's that make up 99.99% of the membership. That is reserved for the double top secret section of the site. To not even be allowed to pay respects to the father of the milled putter (Truett Mills) was both sad and a little sick.

[stage1350]

[quote name='dieselmd' timestamp='1392233451' post='8653567']
[attachment=2066273:Newport Select..jpg]

I think that this is fairly close to the 009.
[/quote]

I think it's closer to a DH-89 myself. Then again, I think the 009 is fairly close to a DH-89 too...

[Medson]

What?! That's really low man.

To be honest, I totally don't mind all his "inspired by" stories. I got it. He needs to cook up some stories to get customers excited. I do it too at work. However, discouraging free discussion is low in a different dimension.

[quote name='BogeyDog11' timestamp='1392243586' post='8654817']

I remember when a couple of members thought an "Inspired by TP Mills" putter was in order and I think their memberships were dumped almost immediately and the postings removed. [b]Don[/b] no doubt has an account at TCC but he does not get involved in any conversations with the commoner's that make up 99.99% of the membership. That is reserved for the double top secret section of the site. To not even be allowed to pay respects to the father of the milled putter (Truett Mills) was both sad and a little sick.
[/quote]

[geesecougar2]

I wouldn't buy a Scratch 009/DH89 any more than I would buy a set of Byron irons. But that's just me

[finalist]

[quote name='geesecougar2' timestamp='1392245244' post='8655039']
I wouldn't buy a Scratch 009/DH89 any more than I would buy a set of Byron irons. But that's just me
[/quote]

The funny thing is I've begged Byron to make wedges for years. He knows more about wedge design than anyone I know. He did a set for his Rep, Steve years ago that look awesome. Myself, Pure745, and others that play Scratch stuff get a nice lesson on wedge history when we've played rounds with Byron and talked about our Scratch wedges. Byron has one of the most amazing collections of historic irons and wedges I've ever seen. It looks like those pics of Arnold Palmer's personal collection vault. I really think Byron likes his business small and personal, and I'd think wedges would be easier than putters, but Byron seems to really enjoy being a one man shop two blocks from the beach.

[TooMuchAwesome]

[quote name='geesecougar2' timestamp='1392245244' post='8655039']
I wouldn't buy a Scratch 009/DH89 any more than I would buy a set of Byron irons. But that's just me
[/quote]

This is an apples to oranges comparison. If Byron released a limited run of forged irons that were worked on by Don White, would ho's on here be interested? I think some might.

[smeech8000]

[quote name='TooMuchAwesome' timestamp='1392251901' post='8655887']
This is an apples to oranges comparison. If Byron released a limited run of forged irons that were worked on by Don White, would ho's on here be interested? I think some might.
[/quote]

Would that even be possible? DW is a Scratch employee, no? If we're speaking hypothetically, of course, then anything with "Byron", "Don White", and "LIMITED" in the same sentence is sure to pique WRX'ers interest... if not elicit a village of fully pitched tents.

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1392249878' post='8655607']
The funny thing is I've begged Byron to make wedges for years. He knows more about wedge design than anyone I know. He did a set for his Rep, Steve years ago that look awesome. Myself, Pure745, and others that play Scratch stuff get a nice lesson on wedge history when we've played rounds with Byron and talked about our Scratch wedges. Byron has one of the most amazing collections of historic irons and wedges I've ever seen. It looks like those pics of Arnold Palmer's personal collection vault. I really think Byron likes his business small and personal, and I'd think wedges would be easier than putters, but Byron seems to really enjoy being a one man shop two blocks from the beach.
[/quote]

I'm thinking in the wake of Titleist/Acushnet's acquisition of JP Harrington that there is probably room in the boutique wedge market if Byron chose that path. I know you've got Scratch & Edel out there but they seem to be lacking in the artistry that JP had and Byron seems to be geared towards.

[TooMuchAwesome]

Smeech,

No it wouldn't be possible, but this was my train of thought...

Scratch=company
Byron=company

Don White=craftsman
James Ingles=craftsman

You can have a JI Scratch putter, and could, hypothetically, have a set of DW Byron irons if he was signed by Byron to make irons after his contract with Scratch was up. It was just a thought, and the comment about a Scratch putter being the equivalent of a set of Byron irons he just decided to stamp his name into made me conjure it up. Scratch has a master craftsman behind their brand working on putters, but Byron currently would have no one with the name recognition to build you a set of high end, $2500 irons. Apples to oranges when comparing Scratch putters to a hypothetical Byron iron!

[Mikey Town]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1392249878' post='8655607']
[quote name='geesecougar2' timestamp='1392245244' post='8655039']
I wouldn't buy a Scratch 009/DH89 any more than I would buy a set of Byron irons. But that's just me
[/quote]

The funny thing is I've begged Byron to make wedges for years. He knows more about wedge design than anyone I know. He did a set for his Rep, Steve years ago that look awesome. Myself, Pure745, and others that play Scratch stuff get a nice lesson on wedge history when we've played rounds with Byron and talked about our Scratch wedges. Byron has one of the most amazing collections of historic irons and wedges I've ever seen. It looks like those pics of Arnold Palmer's personal collection vault. I really think Byron likes his business small and personal, and I'd think wedges would be easier than putters, but Byron seems to really enjoy being a one man shop two blocks from the beach.
[/quote]

The thought of Byron wedges just gave me goosebumps.

[TWshoot67]

Well I've been a fan of Ari's for quite some time actually wrote a piece about Scratch Golf when the whole he said she said which material does Scratch Golf uses "1018". I found Ari to be very honest and upfront about everything when this story went down years ago. But to get back to the 009 copy.... heck if it feels the same and looks the same i'd be a fool not to give it a run as I had over 14 Scotty Cameron Tour putters at one time and more then 1/2 were 009's. It's definitely my favorite Scotty putter and i'd love to add a Scratch copy to the collection of putters ..... heck maybe even 14 of them! lol

[PutterHo]

[quote name='TWshoot67' timestamp='1392328514' post='8662153']
Well I've been a fan of Ari's for quite some time actually wrote a piece about Scratch Golf when the whole he said she said which material does Scratch Golf uses "1018". I found Ari to be very honest and upfront about everything when this story went down years ago. But to get back to the 009 copy.... heck if it feels the same and looks the same i'd be a fool not to give it a run as I had over 14 Scotty Cameron Tour putters at one time and more then 1/2 were 009's. It's definitely my favorite Scotty putter and i'd love to add a Scratch copy to the collection of putters ..... heck maybe even 14 of them! lol
[/quote]You sir have certainly had your fair share of goodness …. my favorite is still that Camico GSS