How would you play this demanding par 4?

[backtees]

There’s a great 18 hole championship course not far from where I live. The course is demanding with lots of water in a fantastic environment with views to a nearby lake and the mountains.

 

From the champions tees

Par 72

CR 75.2

Slope 138

7258 yards

 

From the regular men’s tees

Par 72

CR 73.8

Slope 132

6846 yards

 

The 15^th is a longer par 4, 465 yards from the champion’s tees and 448 yards from the regular men’s tees.

 

The green is elevated and well protected by a bunker, sinks, depressions and OOB right behind it.

 

How would you play this hole when conditions are good (temperatures in the low 90’s, no wind. Fairway with a bit of run-out, greens are medium hard and about 9, max 10 fast).

 

Would you to attack the green with the second shot or would you lay up? Please keep in mind that the yardage on the map below is in meters. For yards roughly add 10%.

[PapaJohick]

Wait the men's regilar are farther than the championship tees? HAha and that's a long course even from the regular tees. Do they have a set at 62-6500? I feel like that's regilar haha. But depends on the grass around the green or if the green is elevated. Only the one big bunker but it is a smallish green it looks like. IF it's not elevated then ya I go for it. If it's elevated or if the rough there is super thick/no real bailout besides laying up then I would lay up

[PapaJohick]

Oh and 426/410 are a bit shorter than what you stated... There is lots of
Trouble though

[RRFireblade]

It's kinda hard to judge this from these kinds of pictures so if this sounds wacky...

It's doesn't seem like the water is really in play so 3w or driver with a cut over it should leave a mid to short iron into the green. The key, I guess, is to be sure to not go through the fairway. The bigger question would be green topography and pin location.

Unless I'm reading it wrong, 446y dogleg, probably not much more than 3 something straight line to the hole.

[SHIVAN]

Playing at the white dot with a 3w. Gives me a miss both ways, and I am pretty sure I can just clear all trouble with the 3w, and not bring the mounds through the fairway in to play.

[ImBurningStarIV]

This WRX we would all just drive the green with high draw 2 iron, then one putt for eagle.

[Another Steelers Fan]

I voted to lay up and go for it on the 3rd. I'm not a long ball hitter so assuming I hit a drive 240, which is good for me, I'd still have at least around 200 yards in for my 2nd shot playing from the regular men's tees.

[backtees]

[quote name='Papa Johick' timestamp='1420038111' post='10664947']
Oh and 426/410 are a bit shorter than what you stated... There is lots of
Trouble though
[/quote]

These are meters - for yards just add about 10%. Yep, there's some trouble, that's for sure.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='Another Steelers Fan' timestamp='1420040660' post='10665157']
I voted to lay up and go for it on the 3rd. I'm not a long ball hitter so assuming I hit a drive 240, which is good for me, I'd still have at least around 200 yards in for my 2nd shot playing from the regular men's tees.
[/quote]

I guess that's the question. It's a pretty sharp dogleg, I think 240 clears the water easily. Depending on how much one chooses to try and cut the corner, especially playing a fade off the tee, the approach will be considerably less than 200 and (I don't think) that play assumes very much risk.

I play a course with what I think is a very similar layout, now that I think about it. But this one could be very different in person.

[2putttom]

The tee shot suits my eye. so; I would go for it in two.

[gjjtr5]

[quote name='Papa Johick' timestamp='1420038111' post='10664947']
Oh and 426/410 are a bit shorter than what you stated... There is lots of
Trouble though
[/quote]

The OP is located in Zurich, so the course planner shown is in metres

[deadsolid...shank]

If I'm reading it correctly, it would be about 220 to carry the second bunker on the inside of the dogleg (from the back tee).

Playing my normal draw with a driver carry of appox. 250-260, I would try to take it right over that bunker, should leave something in the neighbor hood of 180-200 in. Then it's tricky, hard to get a four or five iron high enough to hold an elevated green, would probably try to take something off my 21* hybrid. And since taking something off that club usually results in bad things, then it would be time to scramble.

[knock it close]

Smash driver over the corner, I'm a lefty so if I flair it out to the left I should stay in the fw. My line would be inbetween the white and yellow marker I think. If the rough wasnt very penile I'd aim further right.

[PapaJohick]

Oh yes sorry forgot to convert it. Still depends on what em the rought around the green and layout of that is. I'm not a long hitter but it does suit my shape and the water shouldn't be in play unless a huge slice comes up which does every so often haha

[backtees]

[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1420042784' post='10665393']
If I'm reading it correctly, it would be about 220 to carry the second bunker on the inside of the dogleg (from the back tee).

Playing my normal draw with a driver carry of appox. 250-260, I would try to take it right over that bunker, should leave something in the neighbor hood of 180-200 in. Then it's tricky, hard to get a four or five iron high enough to hold an elevated green, would probably try to take something off my 21* hybrid. And since taking something off that club usually results in bad things, then it would be time to scramble.
[/quote]

If you play from the champions tees the you'd need about 245 yards to clear the second bunker.

What makes it not easier: after that bunker to almost the white marker is a downhill lie and the green is elevated.

[deadsolid...shank]

[quote name='backtees' timestamp='1420043713' post='10665489']
[quote name='deadsolid...shank' timestamp='1420042784' post='10665393']
If I'm reading it correctly, it would be about 220 to carry the second bunker on the inside of the dogleg (from the back tee).

Playing my normal draw with a driver carry of appox. 250-260, I would try to take it right over that bunker, should leave something in the neighbor hood of 180-200 in. Then it's tricky, hard to get a four or five iron high enough to hold an elevated green, would probably try to take something off my 21* hybrid. And since taking something off that club usually results in bad things, then it would be time to scramble.
[/quote]

If you play from the champions tees the you'd need about 245 yards to clear the second bunker.

What makes it not easier: after that bunker to almost the white marker is a downhill lie and the green is elevated.
[/quote]

OK, I wasn't sure if I was reading it correctly, I always struggle with these. It looks like it is 198 to the front of the bunker from the white tees. So another 16 yards to the back tees.......Just dawned on me, while I had converted the overall yardages from meters to yards, I didn't on the yardage to the bunkers. So that 198 is closer to 220 from the whites.

So now it changes things. Probably aim right at the bunker and try to draw it into the fairway. Then it should fit the stock hybrid yardage better. If it goes in the bunker,or through the fairway into the mounds, then the layup decision is made.

Fun question.

[WhiZ]

I usually play a fade with my driver so I'd aim at the 2nd bunker and carry it hopefully leaving around a 180 yard uphill 6iron in?

Of course, you know what they say about the best laid plans.

WhiZ

[VNutz]

About a 235 yard carry over the water from the tips, not crazy but it still takes a good strike. At 7200 yards I'm probably not playing the tips, but assuming I am I'd take a driver in the direction of the left side of the inlet between the 2 sides of the lake. If I play the regular tees I'd probably play the same line, maybe a tad more aggressive. I play a draw so it should come back. If I hit a straight ball I'll be in the rough, by what appear to be bushes, if I draw the ball I might hop into the fairway. If those bushes are actually trees, then that changes my line. Either way that's probably the play I take as going left still brings the water into play and you're left with 200+ in. With the green elevated and OB tight on the right and behind I want as little club coming in as possible.

[MtlJeff]

It looks like a tough hole for sure, but you could probably play it as a bogey-at-worst hole fairly easily... as others have said you probably try and cut the corner a bit with driver, and if you hit a good drive (and can cut off enough) and have a manageable iron into the green you go for it. If you hit a poor drive you probably don't take quite enough to get there, and leave yourself short of the green, in a bunker etc....and just try and give yourself a putt for par, or make bogey

This remind me a lot of a hole i play frequently, which is 470yds and doglegs left, except there is a bit less trouble. The length poses a challenge if you don't hit your drive well, but you also rarely make worse then bogey if you manage the hole well

There's a hole on my course that has hazards on both sides off the tee, and in front AND behind the green and plays over 400yds....that hole is, umm...not fun

[Jamboy72]

If this is a trouble hole for you, take double bogey out of the equation every time - My strategy would be based a ton on my tee ball - If I leave it in a good spot, 200 or less out, go for the green in two - If it's iffy on the tee ball, lay up to your favorite wedge distance and see if you can get up/down - if you do, great - If not, take the bogey and move on...

[David C]

This is an opening hole card wrecker, 566 par five, but a similar lay out with a more demanding tee shot it seems, but an easy birdie - 3 iron up the left, 3 wood depending on wind, 6 iron, wedge to an elevated green bunkers at the front.

[PJ72]

I'd grip down on my 7 iron (ultra stiff shaft, btw) and fade it in to the low side of the pin. No brainer.

[backtees]

First of all many thx for your various feedback and your opinions how to play that hole.

Let me give you some more input for those who want to go for the green in regulation:

Minimum 276 yards drive from the champions tees if you do not want to play from a downhill lie to an about 15 yards elevated green
Minimum 258 yards drive from the white tees if you do not want to play from a downhill lie to an about 15 yards elevated green

Personally, I always lay up on this hole (see below in yellow):[list]
[*]It’s the second toughest hole on the course. With my HCP I could play bogey and still play “personal par”
[*]Simply too many risks (water, bunkers, OOB), an unfavourable risk/reward relation
[*]It’s the 15[sup]th[/sup] hole, so I am on the course for more than 3 hours and maybe not anymore in 100% greatest shape
[/list]
[indent=1]Depending on how good my wedge into the green was I played par at best and bogey at worst while I saw a lot of people leaving the green with double bogey or worse.[/indent]

[indent=1]You may call me chicken but on such holes I always lay up.[/indent]

[indent=1]All the very best for 2015 to you.[/indent]

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='backtees' timestamp='1420121063' post='10669571']
[indent=1]You may call me chicken but on such holes I always lay up.[/indent]
[/quote]

There is nothing chicken about playing for the best score. No matter what, this is never going to be a birdie hole there is no real reward for any risk taken.

[sanjaygolf]

I would still hit driver off the tee and then assess going for it based on where it lands. The water doesn't seem to be in play and there really doesn't seem to be that much other trouble that would cause a penalty stroke. If it has a bad lie then I'd just lay it up but I don't see any reason to concede the hole from the get go

[pinhigh27]

that is the most confusing hole diagram I've ever seen.

[PeanutsDaddy]

Hypothetically, If I'm playing this as a three shot hole (probably from the yellow) I want no part of the water off the tee. I hit two 8 irons and a PW and make no worse than bogey. I'd aim at the first bunker and draw to the center of the fairway off the tee. 2nd shot would travel over both bunkers that mark the right side and would land between the yellow and red dot where the fairway widens. PW to the center of the green. Drain a putt for a fabulous par and/or make a sensible bogey.

In reality, the first time out I am overzealous off the tee. I attempt to hit a draw with my driver over the left edge of the water. Make a tentative swing and block the ball right into the pond. Scramble from there and make double or worse. Post round I 'kick myself' for not laying up off the tee.

The game looks so simple when you look at a hole layout on paper.

[thatboygaule]

Am I the only one who thinks this pretty straight forward? I mean its not the 18th at St Andrews but it's not like the 18th at congressional or 11th at augusta?

[The Beav]

Driver at White dot, go for green in two.
Its long, but doesn't seem too complicated.

[Ri_Redneck]

Driver over the second trap and a mid-iron to the front of the green.

BT