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ANA rules issue (Merged)


Man_O_War

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Rule 20-1 only gives 'guidance' on the best practice of how to mark the position of the ball. However, you may place the mark to the side of the ball, or even in front of the ball if you wish. When the ball is replaced the ball must be placed in the proper position relative to the mark you placed to the side or in front of the ball. The mark does NOT have to be placed directly (or immediately) behind the ball.

 

While the best practice recommends a small coin or similar object be used to mark the position of the ball, you can use what you wish, provided the position of the ball is marked. It may include a coin, a poker chip, a lucky charm, a tee or even a twig, a piece of thread or even a flower or a dead fish. You could even use the toe of your club or the toe of your foot. As long as you physically mark the position of the ball before lifting it, you are within the Rules.

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Come on whr! Dramatic?? What about the heat and the kitchen buddy?!? You know there is no proof that it was intentional. There is no proof needed. It's a rule and she got caught braking it and paid the price. She is the only one that knows if it was intentional. It is only my opinion that she did it intentionally. I think she knows how to mark a ball properly and she chose to mark it for her advantage. Just like Phil said multiple pros do.

 

I'm in the kitchen bro, looks like you left. IMO, if you don't have proof, don't accuse someone of cheating.

 

Oh god you again. Why do you care if I think she cheated?. I've repeated over and over again that it is my opinion. It is becoming the opinion of a lot more people. If she did not do it intentionally she probably has some sort of motor skill issue and needs to get that checked out. How miserable are you? Are you afraid that your wife is going to find your stiff sock and crusty Lexi golf digest cover while you are slumping over it in tears because some big bad internet man called her a cheater. You are better than this man.

 

Who exactly? You sound like the person who says, "let's go streaking, everyones doing it!" Only to find no one came with you 300 yards down the block.

 

If Lexi did cheat, as you have repeatedly said, then she's one hell of an actress, given her response to the ruling and post tournament tears/remarks that were incredibly classy.

 

She cheated moron. What the hell!?! Are you watching old school and trying to come up with one liners to dog me? You are so damn obnoxious. She is crying because she got caught! Phil knows it, Jack knows it. You are the only idiot that does not. Argue with somebody else about it, my opinion is not gonna change. Let me out of your weird, self pitying, late 90's movie watching, grandpa joke making, hot kitchen. Freak

 

Calm down kid. If you can't take someone challenging your fact deficient "opinion" on the internet, turn off the computer.

 

Seriously, go enjoy the Master's. One of the best weeks of the year. Hopefully we can agree on that.

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What I find somewhat perplexing in all this is the fact that neither her playing partner and/or caddie, never saw anything. From a personal observation, any competition, golf wise, that I've been in, I always paid attention to what the players in my group were doing. After all, we're playing for something other than grins and giggles and the pro's are playing for serious money. What transpired with Lexi was a farce and the LPGA totally over reached. The amount of condemning comments from both everyday golfers and pro's alike, seem to attest to this. I fully realize that a game/competition must have rules in order to be equitable to all involved, but every other sport on the planet has official monitors during playing. Golf also has monitors, being those that play with you and even if it's a game of individual integrity, you still are being observed. To have an outside agency intervene well after the fact is asinine. No other sport allows this and neither should golf. The only reason it's happening is because of modern technology and IMO, that technology has overstepped it's purpose. Unless every golfer is under the same scrutiny, the field is not protected and it then becomes what's known as selective enforcement and obviously unfair.

 

I totally agree....!!

 

Her playing partner was watching..... this mis marking/replacing did not cause her playing partner concern. It was observed, judged by a competitor, and didn't require any further action.

 

And if an official was with the group then that person should have been watching as well. If they thought the awkward display of replacing the ball caused some concern they should have said something right then so it could be reviewed prior to signing the card.

Yeah, it was viewed by a rookie on tour who does not speak English very well.

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

 

Are you surprised by that comment Shilgy? I sure am!

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

 

Are you surprised by that comment Shilgy? I sure am!

In all fairness I think Phil does tend to exaggerate to make a point sometimes but yeah, 2-3" is very excessive. And I would think it would have been noticed and reported. Often.

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

 

Are you surprised by that comment Shilgy? I sure am!

In all fairness I think Phil does tend to exaggerate to make a point sometimes but yeah, 2-3" is very excessive. And I would think it would have been noticed and reported. Often.

 

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

 

Are you surprised by that comment Shilgy? I sure am!

 

I am and I think it's total BS. If Phil wants to grandize something to make a point, that's his right, but 2-3 inches? And these are guys he's competing against? That's a stretch even for Lefty.

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Many times I have marked my ball, picked it up to clean it or line it up and noticed it was sitting down in a tiny indentation. So moving my ball slightly to one side or the other away from the indentation as I placed it back would give me a slight advantage..

 

There have also been times I've had trouble getting it to settle back exactly in the same spot because im on a slope or a tiny piece of grass or imperfection was pushing the ball to on side or the other not allowing me to put it back exactly as I saw it when I lifted it...

 

In those instances, I try to get it as close as possible but a player should not be penalized because the ball simply would not go back EXACTLY in the same spot... Golf is not perfect, the ball is not perfect (it has dimples) the grass is not perfect (it moves) the weather is not perfect (the wind blows) ... So the rules should allow for the imperfections...

 

But it is my contention based on watching Lexi's normal marking / putting routine that something was "off" about that particular putt and routine. It's quite possible that Lexi moved the ball to gain an advantage because it was in an indentation or imperfection... Not because it got her ball closer to the hole... She just moved it to much (about 1/2 inch) and got caught... Or considering the circumstances being a major championship, she was just very careless...But that is just an assumption. Only she knows what her intent was... Either case she deserved the two shot penalty because she broke a very basic rule...

 

But having a spectator call in a day later is rediculous because that person could have malicious intent and waited to call after her card was signed knowing it would add 2 extra penalty strokes... This rule needs to be changed and I'm sure will be addressed in the near future..

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Many times I have marked my ball, picked it up to clean it or line it up and noticed it was sitting down in a tiny indentation. So moving my ball slightly to one side or the other away from the indentation as I placed it back would give me a slight advantage..

 

There have also been times I've had trouble getting it to settle back exactly in the same spot because im on a slope or a tiny piece of grass or imperfection was pushing the ball to on side or the other not allowing me to put it back exactly as I saw it when I lifted it...

 

In those instances, I try to get it as close as possible but a player should not be penalized because the ball simply would not go back EXACTLY in the same spot... Golf is not perfect, the ball is not perfect (it has dimples) the grass is not perfect (it moves) the weather is not perfect (the wind blows) ... So the rules should allow for the imperfections...

 

But it is my contention based on watching Lexi's normal marking / putting routine that something was "off" about that particular putt and routine. It's quite possible that Lexi moved the ball to gain an advantage because it was in an indentation or imperfection... Not because it got her ball closer to the hole... She just moved it to much (about 1/2 inch) and got caught... Or considering the circumstances being a major championship, she was just very careless...But that is just an assumption. Only she knows what her intent was... Either case she deserved the two shot penalty because she broke a very basic rule...

 

But having a spectator call in a day later is rediculous because that person could have malicious intent and waited to call after her card was signed knowing it would add 2 extra penalty strokes... This rule needs to be changed and I'm sure will be addressed in the near future..

 

This should ease your mind a little bit.

 

20-3d. Ball Fails to Come to Rest on Spot

 

If a ball when placed fails to come to rest on the spot on which it was placed, there is no penalty and the ball must be replaced. If it still fails to come to rest on that spot:

 

(i)

except in a hazard, it must be placed at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole and not in a hazard;

 

(ii)

in a hazard, it must be placed in the hazard at the nearest spot where it can be placed at rest that is not nearer the hole.

 

If a ball when placed comes to rest on the spot on which it is placed, and it subsequently moves, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as it lies, unless the provisions of any other Rule apply.

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

 

Are you surprised by that comment Shilgy? I sure am!

In all fairness I think Phil does tend to exaggerate to make a point sometimes but yeah, 2-3" is very excessive. And I would think it would have been noticed and reported. Often.

 

Do you really think it would have been reported? Moving it 2 inches is even mentioned in this survey of tour caddies. Over half report they have witnessed cheating. And apparently not turned anyone in.

 

http://www.golf.com/tour-and-news/survey-finds-more-half-pga-tour-caddies-have-witnessed-cheating

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

 

Are you surprised by that comment Shilgy? I sure am!

In all fairness I think Phil does tend to exaggerate to make a point sometimes but yeah, 2-3" is very excessive. And I would think it would have been noticed and reported. Often.

 

Do you really think it would have been reported? Moving it 2 inches is even mentioned in this survey of tour caddies. Over half report they have witnessed cheating. And apparently not turned anyone in.

 

http://www.golf.com/...nessed-cheating

 

This would really surprise me if players had the "balls" to move a marked ball that much. I could see (but not condone) them moving it an amount they might hope to be unnoticed by anyone but themselves to avoid a spike mark or something, but 2-3 inches seems incredible to me.

FORE RIGHT!!!!

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

 

Are you surprised by that comment Shilgy? I sure am!

In all fairness I think Phil does tend to exaggerate to make a point sometimes but yeah, 2-3" is very excessive. And I would think it would have been noticed and reported. Often.

 

Do you really think it would have been reported? Moving it 2 inches is even mentioned in this survey of tour caddies. Over half report they have witnessed cheating. And apparently not turned anyone in.

 

http://www.golf.com/...nessed-cheating

 

This would really surprise me if players had the "balls" to move a marked ball that much. I could see (but not condone) them moving it an amount they might hope to be unnoticed by anyone but themselves to avoid a spike mark or something, but 2-3 inches seems incredible to me.

 

I don't know...I've heard many stories about pros doing the violation they speak of in the article...soling a club behind a ball in rough enough that you improve the lie and now have a clear pass at the back of the ball. Never heard anyone called for it. So I'm not sure anymore. Phil mentioned 2-3 inches of movement in marking, this survey of caddies mentions a known player moving it up to 2 inches...sounds like the tour pro fraternity doesn't turn anyone in to me.

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What we're learning from Phil and others is that the Tour is not exactly the paragon of virtue that it's advertised to be, and that players don't like ratting on one another. Personally, in my local tournament play I frequently see cheating. I don't like to confront the other player, because the emotional baggage required throws off my own game.

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What we're learning from Phil and others is that the Tour is not exactly the paragon of virtue that it's advertised to be, and that players don't like ratting on one another. Personally, in my local tournament play I frequently see cheating. I don't like to confront the other player, because the emotional baggage required throws off my own game.

 

agree.

FORE RIGHT!!!!

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What I find somewhat perplexing in all this is the fact that neither her playing partner and/or caddie, never saw anything. From a personal observation, any competition, golf wise, that I've been in, I always paid attention to what the players in my group were doing. After all, we're playing for something other than grins and giggles and the pro's are playing for serious money. What transpired with Lexi was a farce and the LPGA totally over reached. The amount of condemning comments from both everyday golfers and pro's alike, seem to attest to this. I fully realize that a game/competition must have rules in order to be equitable to all involved, but every other sport on the planet has official monitors during playing. Golf also has monitors, being those that play with you and even if it's a game of individual integrity, you still are being observed. To have an outside agency intervene well after the fact is asinine. No other sport allows this and neither should golf. The only reason it's happening is because of modern technology and IMO, that technology has overstepped it's purpose. Unless every golfer is under the same scrutiny, the field is not protected and it then becomes what's known as selective enforcement and obviously unfair.

 

I totally agree....!!

 

Her playing partner was watching..... this mis marking/replacing did not cause her playing partner concern. It was observed, judged by a competitor, and didn't require any further action.

 

And if an official was with the group then that person should have been watching as well. If they thought the awkward display of replacing the ball caused some concern they should have said something right then so it could be reviewed prior to signing the card.

Yeah, it was viewed by a rookie on tour who does not speak English very well.

 

Don't forget Ryu was also in the group. If you watch the video, both of the other caddies were in a good position to see it happen, but not guaranteed they were paying close enough attention at the time.

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What I find somewhat perplexing in all this is the fact that neither her playing partner and/or caddie, never saw anything. From a personal observation, any competition, golf wise, that I've been in, I always paid attention to what the players in my group were doing. After all, we're playing for something other than grins and giggles and the pro's are playing for serious money. What transpired with Lexi was a farce and the LPGA totally over reached. The amount of condemning comments from both everyday golfers and pro's alike, seem to attest to this. I fully realize that a game/competition must have rules in order to be equitable to all involved, but every other sport on the planet has official monitors during playing. Golf also has monitors, being those that play with you and even if it's a game of individual integrity, you still are being observed. To have an outside agency intervene well after the fact is asinine. No other sport allows this and neither should golf. The only reason it's happening is because of modern technology and IMO, that technology has overstepped it's purpose. Unless every golfer is under the same scrutiny, the field is not protected and it then becomes what's known as selective enforcement and obviously unfair.

 

I totally agree....!!

 

Her playing partner was watching..... this mis marking/replacing did not cause her playing partner concern. It was observed, judged by a competitor, and didn't require any further action.

 

And if an official was with the group then that person should have been watching as well. If they thought the awkward display of replacing the ball caused some concern they should have said something right then so it could be reviewed prior to signing the card.

Yeah, it was viewed by a rookie on tour who does not speak English very well.

 

Pretty sure she played with Sung Hyun on Saturday.

 

If she did see it, wonder if it was thought of as "no big deal", or if pointing it out was going to be too "uncomfortable" for her as a "rookie" and someone who is learning the language.

 

Is it Thursday yet.....?

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Phil and Whan, it seems, did not like the two strokes for wrong card. Surprise! Other than saying the lpga had no choice but to follow the rules as written that is what everyone on these threads has said.

Phil did not absolve Lexi because others do it. He said others do it and it needs to be stopped.

Some have asked what did she gain by moving the ball as it was only a 12" putt. If the slight shift to the left of about a half to full inch left avoided a spike mark our dinner other blemish on the green it may have helped a lot.

No one knows if it was intentional except the player. But when Phil is saying guys are moving balls two to three inches then something needs to be done.

Last, Ryu is the champion. Live with it. She won fair and square by the rules we have right now.

 

Although I can see both sides of this ordeal, I can honestly say there has NEVER been something in the way of a 1 footer that would keep me from holing it that I could not take care of while staying within the boundaries of the rules.

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I dunno, the more I watch it, the worse it gets.

For someone just about to tap in a 1 footer, then to stop, mark your ball, move it to the side a little, and pick the coin back up, with no cleaning, standing up, aligning a logo etc., is pretty damning in my opinion.

 

If she thought it was on the same spot, she needs her eyes checked, and if she thought it was ok to move the ball to a different position, well, it begs a lot of questions. Like maybe, as Phil alluded to, its commonplace on the tours and a communal blind eye is shown to it ? I still can't believe its a knowing or not knowing the rules issue. In what parallel universe would a junior golfer growing up and learning the game ever think it was ok to put the ball back on a different spot ?

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I dunno, the more I watch it, the worse it gets.

For someone just about to tap in a 1 footer, then to stop, mark your ball, move it to the side a little, and pick the coin back up, with no cleaning, standing up, aligning a logo etc., is pretty damning in my opinion.

 

If she thought it was on the same spot, she needs her eyes checked, and if she thought it was ok to move the ball to a different position, well, it begs a lot of questions. Like maybe, as Phil alluded to, its commonplace on the tours and a communal blind eye is shown to it ? I still can't believe its a knowing or not knowing the rules issue. In what parallel universe would a junior golfer growing up and learning the game ever think it was ok to put the ball back on a different spot ?

 

Exactement

 

She is getting a massive pass here on wrx as a young American with a tidy chassis.

 

Re Phils comments, what on earth is he doing signing playing partners cards that he knows to be wrong?! And I'm a Phil fan..

 

 

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I dunno, the more I watch it, the worse it gets.

For someone just about to tap in a 1 footer, then to stop, mark your ball, move it to the side a little, and pick the coin back up, with no cleaning, standing up, aligning a logo etc., is pretty damning in my opinion.

 

If she thought it was on the same spot, she needs her eyes checked, and if she thought it was ok to move the ball to a different position, well, it begs a lot of questions. Like maybe, as Phil alluded to, its commonplace on the tours and a communal blind eye is shown to it ? I still can't believe its a knowing or not knowing the rules issue. In what parallel universe would a junior golfer growing up and learning the game ever think it was ok to put the ball back on a different spot ?

 

Exactement

 

She is getting a massive pass here on wrx as a young American with a tidy chassis.

 

Re Phils comments, what on earth is he doing signing playing partners cards that he knows to be wrong?! And I'm a Phil fan..

 

Agree totally with the re: Phil's comments. A few friends and I were discussing the topic of attesting to other player's scores the other afternoon. Then Phil makes a comment about the marking of balls having gotten loose on Tour. I realize the Tours can't have those staff-type meetings no one enjoys, but it seems it would be helpful to have players complete some type of continuing education each year in which some basic topics i.e. proper marking of the ball could be covered. It certainly couldn't hurt, given what has transpired during the past several days.

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The issue I have is timing of the penalty, and how it was handled.

 

Lets say I am her playing partner and I notice the infraction as it happens. Now I have two options I can call it right then and there or now knowing that penalties can be made a day later I can hold that info till it suits me better. I can literally wait till the 13th hole on Sunday when she is beating me by two strokes to address the penalty? Does not seem fair. Not saying that has happened, but it could. Slippery slope as it were

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Come on whr! Dramatic?? What about the heat and the kitchen buddy?!? You know there is no proof that it was intentional. There is no proof needed. It's a rule and she got caught braking it and paid the price. She is the only one that knows if it was intentional. It is only my opinion that she did it intentionally. I think she knows how to mark a ball properly and she chose to mark it for her advantage. Just like Phil said multiple pros do.

 

I'm in the kitchen bro, looks like you left. IMO, if you don't have proof, don't accuse someone of cheating.

 

Oh god you again. Why do you care if I think she cheated?. I've repeated over and over again that it is my opinion. It is becoming the opinion of a lot more people. If she did not do it intentionally she probably has some sort of motor skill issue and needs to get that checked out. How miserable are you? Are you afraid that your wife is going to find your stiff sock and crusty Lexi golf digest cover while you are slumping over it in tears because some big bad internet man called her a cheater. You are better than this man.

 

Who exactly? You sound like the person who says, "let's go streaking, everyones doing it!" Only to find no one came with you 300 yards down the block.

 

If Lexi did cheat, as you have repeatedly said, then she's one hell of an actress, given her response to the ruling and post tournament tears/remarks that were incredibly classy.

 

She cheated moron. What the hell!?! Are you watching old school and trying to come up with one liners to dog me? You are so damn obnoxious. She is crying because she got caught! Phil knows it, Jack knows it. You are the only idiot that does not. Argue with somebody else about it, my opinion is not gonna change. Let me out of your weird, self pitying, late 90's movie watching, grandpa joke making, hot kitchen. Freak

You are one angry little man...

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