ANA rules issue (Merged)

[coreyl]

Another competitor won the Championship.

Negative, another competitor was handed the Championship. She did not WIN jack sh!t.

 

I think we should let Jordan take a mulligan on 12 at 7:30am tomorrow and when he makes par he becomes 2 x defending champ.

 

Lexi should have been DQ'd

You're reaching...

[Lime Shark]

It seems like I may be in the minority here, but I think replacing the ball within one ball's radius of the original spot would be fine, and not change the competitive balance of the game. In other words you can replace the ball with its edge where the center of it used to be. That would give the players a tangible way to see it easily without pulling out a ruler, and the rules officials could pour over the film and use the ball as a measuring device. The 2 stroke penalty for the scorecard issue should obviously be changed, because she wasn't aware that she signed an incorrect scorecard.

 

One ball radius would turn into two balls pretty quickly ; )

That's the last thing the LPGA needs.

[Shilgy]

What I find somewhat perplexing in all this is the fact that neither her playing partner and/or caddie, never saw anything. From a personal observation, any competition, golf wise, that I've been in, I always paid attention to what the players in my group were doing. After all, we're playing for something other than grins and giggles and the pro's are playing for serious money. What transpired with Lexi was a farce and the LPGA totally over reached. The amount of condemning comments from both everyday golfers and pro's alike, seem to attest to this. I fully realize that a game/competition must have rules in order to be equitable to all involved, but every other sport on the planet has official monitors during playing. Golf also has monitors, being those that play with you and even if it's a game of individual integrity, you still are being observed. To have an outside agency intervene well after the fact is asinine. No other sport allows this and neither should golf. The only reason it's happening is because of modern technology and IMO, that technology has overstepped it's purpose. Unless every golfer is under the same scrutiny, the field is not protected and it then becomes what's known as selective enforcement and obviously unfair.

 

I totally agree....!!

 

Her playing partner was watching..... this mis marking/replacing did not cause her playing partner concern. It was observed, judged by a competitor, and didn't require any further action.

 

And if an official was with the group then that person should have been watching as well. If they thought the awkward display of replacing the ball caused some concern they should have said something right then so it could be reviewed prior to signing the card.

Yeah, it was viewed by a rookie on tour who does not speak English very well.

 

Don't forget Ryu was also in the group. If you watch the video, both of the other caddies were in a good position to see it happen, but not guaranteed they were paying close enough attention at the time.

Saturday was two somes was it not?

[Shilgy]

The issue I have is timing of the penalty, and how it was handled.

 

Lets say I am her playing partner and I notice the infraction as it happens. Now I have two options I can call it right then and there or now knowing that penalties can be made a day later I can hold that info till it suits me better. I can literally wait till the 13th hole on Sunday when she is beating me by two strokes to address the penalty? Does not seem fair. Not saying that has happened, but it could. Slippery slope as it were

Not sure what the rule would be but that, I am quite certain, would be a violation as well.

Phil also makes use of rules to have the upmost advantage, I.E. those drops he took from sprinklers in the woods. More likely it is quid pro quo that he doesn't call out his fellow golfers on things and that's why he would prefer that the tour make suggestions instead.

It does not matter where the obstruction is the player gets relief. There is no quid pro quo to it in that sense. He is entitled to those drops. It pays to know the rules. IF he is not reporting the placements he referred to he is complicit in the problem.

 

I get it. It sucks when your ball settles into a slight depression on the green that is not a repairable pitch mark. But you put it back in that hole and hit your next putt. As to those that say they cannot get the ball to settle when they replace it...they are likely slightly off of where it should be put back. If it will not replace in that spot it likely would not have stopped on that spot.

[williamsnrb]

 

 

Are you surprised by that comment Shilgy? I sure am!

In all fairness I think Phil does tend to exaggerate to make a point sometimes but yeah, 2-3" is very excessive. And I would think it would have been noticed and reported. Often.

 

Do you really think it would have been reported? Moving it 2 inches is even mentioned in this survey of tour caddies. Over half report they have witnessed cheating. And apparently not turned anyone in.

 

http://www.golf.com/...nessed-cheating

 

This would really surprise me if players had the "balls" to move a marked ball that much. I could see (but not condone) them moving it an amount they might hope to be unnoticed by anyone but themselves to avoid a spike mark or something, but 2-3 inches seems incredible to me.

 

I don't know...I've heard many stories about pros doing the violation they speak of in the article...soling a club behind a ball in rough enough that you improve the lie and now have a clear pass at the back of the ball. Never heard anyone called for it. So I'm not sure anymore. Phil mentioned 2-3 inches of movement in marking, this survey of caddies mentions a known player moving it up to 2 inches...sounds like the tour pro fraternity doesn't turn anyone in to me.

 

I've seen guys do this in competition. It is tough to call people out for it, even if it is the "right" thing to do. I am a stickler for the rules, but in the moment, sometimes you find yourself biting your tongue - kind of like when you see a person breaking the law on the road. Maybe you should take down their license plate number and call the police. But more than likely, you'll reason to yourself not to do it.

[tigerstew]

She should be banned from the tour. Disgraceful

[North Texas]

Another competitor won the Championship.

Negative, another competitor was handed the Championship. She did not WIN jack sh!t.

 

I think we should let Jordan take a mulligan on 12 at 7:30am tomorrow and when he makes par he becomes 2 x defending champ.

 

Lexi should have been DQ'd

 

Under what rule should she have been DQ'd?

[Roadking2003]

Phil also makes use of rules to have the upmost advantage, I.E. those drops he took from sprinklers in the woods.

 

Only an idiot would not take upmost advantage of the rules. And BTW, it doesn't matter where the sprinkler is located. If the USGA didn't want you to get relief from a sprinkler in the woods, they would have put that in the rule book

[Seamus_McDuff]

What I find somewhat perplexing in all this is the fact that neither her playing partner and/or caddie, never saw anything. From a personal observation, any competition, golf wise, that I've been in, I always paid attention to what the players in my group were doing. After all, we're playing for something other than grins and giggles and the pro's are playing for serious money. What transpired with Lexi was a farce and the LPGA totally over reached. The amount of condemning comments from both everyday golfers and pro's alike, seem to attest to this. I fully realize that a game/competition must have rules in order to be equitable to all involved, but every other sport on the planet has official monitors during playing. Golf also has monitors, being those that play with you and even if it's a game of individual integrity, you still are being observed. To have an outside agency intervene well after the fact is asinine. No other sport allows this and neither should golf. The only reason it's happening is because of modern technology and IMO, that technology has overstepped it's purpose. Unless every golfer is under the same scrutiny, the field is not protected and it then becomes what's known as selective enforcement and obviously unfair.

 

I totally agree....!!

 

Her playing partner was watching..... this mis marking/replacing did not cause her playing partner concern. It was observed, judged by a competitor, and didn't require any further action.

 

And if an official was with the group then that person should have been watching as well. If they thought the awkward display of replacing the ball caused some concern they should have said something right then so it could be reviewed prior to signing the card.

Yeah, it was viewed by a rookie on tour who does not speak English very well.

 

Don't forget Ryu was also in the group. If you watch the video, both of the other caddies were in a good position to see it happen, but not guaranteed they were paying close enough attention at the time.

Saturday was two somes was it not?

 

No, the third round was changed to threesomes due to the high-wind delay earlier in the tournament.

[dpb5031]

We can talk about intent til we're blue in the face on this and folks will have their opinions, but it's going to remain inconclusive. Officials at the event said "no intent," so that's the ruling.

 

More interesting (to me) is the 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect card. Why does this rule exist/what's it's Genesis, and is it still needed?

 

I think not.

 

If we're going to apply penalties after the fact, especially from outside agents, the player should be allowed to amend her card without additional penalty.

[munichop]

A simple ring marker (think napkin ring) designed for a golf ball could be required for each competitor. Place the ring down, remove the ball, replace within the ring and go. The ruling bodies don't want solutions, just paychecks.

[golfDAD_21]

I dunno, the more I watch it, the worse it gets.

For someone just about to tap in a 1 footer, then to stop, mark your ball, move it to the side a little, and pick the coin back up, with no cleaning, standing up, aligning a logo etc., is pretty damning in my opinion.

 

If she thought it was on the same spot, she needs her eyes checked, and if she thought it was ok to move the ball to a different position, well, it begs a lot of questions. Like maybe, as Phil alluded to, its commonplace on the tours and a communal blind eye is shown to it ? I still can't believe its a knowing or not knowing the rules issue. In what parallel universe would a junior golfer growing up and learning the game ever think it was ok to put the ball back on a different spot ?

 

Couldn't agree more! We've all marked our ball thousands of times and when placing it back you subconsciously put it right back down in front of the mark...for her to put it to the side it took a conscious thought/effort to do so and there had to be a reason for that (spike mark, etc).

[golfDAD_21]

A simple ring marker (think napkin ring) designed for a golf ball could be required for each competitor. Place the ring down, remove the ball, replace within the ring and go. The ruling bodies don't want solutions, just paychecks.

 

be hard to remove without moving your ball....

[KyGolf]

We can talk about intent til we're blue in the face on this and folks will have their opinions, but it's going to remain inconclusive. Officials at the event said "no intent," so that's the ruling.

 

More interesting (to me) is the 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect card. Why does this rule exist/what's it's Genesis, and is it still needed?

 

I think not.

 

If we're going to apply penalties after the fact, especially from outside agents, the player should be allowed to amend her card without additional penalty.

 

I looked back as far as 1899 and it was in the rule published by the R&A (as a DQ), the rule changed in 2016 to a 2 stroke penalty if the card was wrong from failure to include a penalty the player didn't realize they incurred.

 

Look at it this way, if there is no penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard, there is no incentive for players to call a penalty on themselves. The score would be the same either way if a breach was discovered after the round. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. The extra 2 strokes is penal enough to make it risky to ignore a breach and hope nobody has noticed.

[jonsnow]

A simple ring marker (think napkin ring) designed for a golf ball could be required for each competitor. Place the ring down, remove the ball, replace within the ring and go. The ruling bodies don't want solutions, just paychecks.

 

be hard to remove without moving your ball....

 

Especially when you're trying to place one round object on another round object with big hands & the bottom round object is covered with grainy Bermuda grass & the ball won't stay put...

 

Wait, wouldn't a ring marker be round, too? Crap!

[North Texas]

I dunno, the more I watch it, the worse it gets.

For someone just about to tap in a 1 footer, then to stop, mark your ball, move it to the side a little, and pick the coin back up, with no cleaning, standing up, aligning a logo etc., is pretty damning in my opinion.

 

If she thought it was on the same spot, she needs her eyes checked, and if she thought it was ok to move the ball to a different position, well, it begs a lot of questions. Like maybe, as Phil alluded to, its commonplace on the tours and a communal blind eye is shown to it ? I still can't believe its a knowing or not knowing the rules issue. In what parallel universe would a junior golfer growing up and learning the game ever think it was ok to put the ball back on a different spot ?

 

Couldn't agree more! We've all marked our ball thousands of times and when placing it back you subconsciously put it right back down in front of the mark...for her to put it to the side it took a conscious thought/effort to do so and there had to be a reason for that (spike mark, etc).

 

Was her ball really moved far enough to miss a spike mark?

 

I "re-enacted" what she did and my conclusion is that the ball WAS NOT moved far enough to miss a spike mark in her line much less anything bigger. Not only that, standing to the side like she did, I think it would be very easy to misplace the ball when you put it back down without realizing it. Quite simply, she should have been marking it from directly behind the ball.

[North Texas]

Here's the best thing about all of this.

 

This was such a blatant act of cheating by Lexi that it takes a zoomed in, slow version video of it in order to detect it. Think about that.

[tigerstew]

Here's the best thing about all of this.

 

This was such a blatant act of cheating by Lexi that it takes a zoomed in, slow version video of it in order to detect it. Think about that.

 

She should be banned. Utter disgraceful from a so called athlete. Disgraceful

[Grantmur]

Phil also makes use of rules to have the upmost advantage, I.E. those drops he took from sprinklers in the woods.

 

Only an idiot would not take upmost advantage of the rules. And BTW, it doesn't matter where the sprinkler is located. If the USGA didn't want you to get relief from a sprinkler in the woods, they would have put that in the rule book

 

Only someone with lack of character would take upmost advantage of the rules. According to the USGA it matters where the sprinkler is located, you only get relief if it effect your intended stance or would effect your intended swing. Its up to the player to be truthful about what their intended stance and swing would be. That is the difference between playing with integrity and taking upmost advantage of the rules, that being said I don't know what any tour players intended path or direction are and neither does anyone but said player.

[QEight]

Here's the best thing about all of this.

 

This was such a blatant act of cheating by Lexi that it takes a zoomed in, slow version video of it in order to detect it. Think about that.

 

But it does not take actually, if you were looking you could see it in live speed from decent distance. But I know, this is futile.

[North Texas]

Here's the best thing about all of this.

 

This was such a blatant act of cheating by Lexi that it takes a zoomed in, slow version video of it in order to detect it. Think about that.

 

But it does not take actually, if you were looking you could see it in live speed from decent distance. But I know, this is futile.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Looking at it in live speed from decent distance, you would never notice a thing unless you were looking for it. And even if you are looking for it, it's debatable, at best, how "blatant" it is.

[QEight]

Here's the best thing about all of this.

 

This was such a blatant act of cheating by Lexi that it takes a zoomed in, slow version video of it in order to detect it. Think about that.

 

But it does not take actually, if you were looking you could see it in live speed from decent distance. But I know, this is futile.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. Looking at it in live speed from decent distance, you would never notice a thing unless you were looking for it. And even if you are looking for it, it's debatable, at best, how "blatant" it is.

 

It is same on the course, sometimes you follow other playing marking (or doing whatever) and you would notice, sometimes not. I do not think there has to be something sinister, just something that caught the eye. And then easy to rewind, which is not possible in real life.

[Hawkeye77]

Euros take this stuff seriously. No difference tamping down a spike marking and moving your ball to avoid one, even unintentionally.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/10499288/Simon-Dyson-cleared-of-premeditated-cheating-but-given-suspended-ban-and-fined-30000.html

[tstephen]

Another competitor won the Championship.

Negative, another competitor was handed the Championship. She did not WIN jack sh!t.

 

I think we should let Jordan take a mulligan on 12 at 7:30am tomorrow and when he makes par he becomes 2 x defending champ.

 

Lexi should have been DQ'd

 

Under what rule should she have been DQ'd?

 

Deliberate intent

[QEight]

Euros take this stuff seriously. No difference tamping down a spike marking and moving your ball to avoid one, even unintentionally.

 

http://www.telegraph...ined-30000.html

 

But... but... but... sigh

[Strike Force]

Here's the best thing about all of this.

 

This was such a blatant act of cheating by Lexi that it takes a zoomed in, slow version video of it in order to detect it. Think about that.

 

She should be banned. Utter disgraceful from a so called athlete. Disgraceful

 

Lexi was robbed by a stupid LPGA Rules Committee. The 2 stroke penalty for returning an incorrect scorecard should be reversed and Lexi should be awarded the ANA Inspiration trophy.

[Strike Force]

Another competitor won the Championship.

Negative, another competitor was handed the Championship. She did not WIN jack sh!t.

 

I think we should let Jordan take a mulligan on 12 at 7:30am tomorrow and when he makes par he becomes 2 x defending champ.

 

Lexi should have been DQ'd

 

Under what rule should she have been DQ'd?

 

Deliberate intent

 

No way! On an 18" putt.

[sui generis]

Here's the best thing about all of this.

 

This was such a blatant act of cheating by Lexi that it takes a zoomed in, slow version video of it in order to detect it. Think about that.

 

She should be banned. Utter disgraceful from a so called athlete. Disgraceful

 

Lexi was robbed by a stupid LPGA Rules Committee. The 2 stroke penalty for returning an incorrect scorecard should be reversed and Lexi should be awarded the ANA Inspiration trophy.

 

Some people don't know much about the Rules, but nevertheless have strong opinions.

[dpb5031]

We can talk about intent til we're blue in the face on this and folks will have their opinions, but it's going to remain inconclusive. Officials at the event said "no intent," so that's the ruling.

 

More interesting (to me) is the 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect card. Why does this rule exist/what's it's Genesis, and is it still needed?

 

I think not.

 

If we're going to apply penalties after the fact, especially from outside agents, the player should be allowed to amend her card without additional penalty.

 

I looked back as far as 1899 and it was in the rule published by the R&A (as a DQ), the rule changed in 2016 to a 2 stroke penalty if the card was wrong from failure to include a penalty the player didn't realize they incurred.

 

Look at it this way, if there is no penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard, there is no incentive for players to call a penalty on themselves. The score would be the same either way if a breach was discovered after the round. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. The extra 2 strokes is penal enough to make it risky to ignore a breach and hope nobody has noticed.

 

I see your point, and it is a good one, but I don't agree 100%. The player who is deemed to have committed an unintentional/unrealized infraction is being unjustly punished with a double jeopardy of sorts.

 

If the rules officials believe the infraction to be unintentional and not serious enough to warrant disqualification, then it should end there and the player should be allowed to amend the card without penalty.

 

We have fellow competitors as markers, rules officials on the course, television cameras and analysts everywhere in these professional events. Additionally, we're allowing folks to phone, email and text in perceived violations from the comfort of their living room while viewing a hi-def DVR recording.

 

There are additional complications and varying outcomes based upon the timing of the notification of potential rules violations.

 

If reported same day & during the round before card signing it can be addressed without additional penalty. Wait 24 hours and the player receives an additional 2 shot penalty for incorrect signing of the previous day's card.

 

Call or email it in on the Monday after the tournament has concluded, and no matter how compelling the evidence, the scores and results stand with zero penalty or change of outcome.

 

There are too many potential different/disparate outcomes for me to believe this is the best that can be done in terms of these specific rules policies.

[jonsnow]

Here's the best thing about all of this.

 

This was such a blatant act of cheating by Lexi that it takes a zoomed in, slow version video of it in order to detect it. Think about that.

 

She should be banned. Utter disgraceful from a so called athlete. Disgraceful

 

Lexi was robbed by a stupid LPGA Rules Committee. The 2 stroke penalty for returning an incorrect scorecard should be reversed and Lexi should be awarded the ANA Inspiration trophy.

 

Some people don't know much about the Rules, but nevertheless have strong opinions.

 

"Frequently wrong, but never in doubt"