US Open on links style courses - booo

[nix]

People are always fast to say that something is NOT a links course, but I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say what speficically IS a links course.

[Dpavs]

For those who don't think the course was a worthy enough challenge, tell it to Fowler, Reed, Steele, Thomas or Garcia who all had their skills well challenged at one time or another. Or tell it perhaps to DJ, Bubba, Scott, Rose, Rory, Dufner and Day who didn't even make the cut and see what they think about the course not having an adequate challenge to it.

 

It was certainly a risk reward course but I think that added a nice element this year.

[MMB1500]

People are always fast to say that something is NOT a links course, but I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say what speficically IS a links course.

 

You might want to re-read this thread. It's been stated in here numerous times.

[North Butte]

People are always fast to say that something is NOT a links course, but I don't believe I've ever heard anyone say what speficically IS a links course.

 

It's a Humpty Dumpty term that totally depends on who is saying it.

 

There are geography/geology geeks for whom it has to meet a super-restrictive list of requirements that only allow there to be a few dozen True Links courses in the world.

 

There are golf course developers who say it every time they want to appeal to the demographic who dreams of flying off to Ireland to play Lahinch and RCD.

 

There are TV folks who think it basically means beautifully waving fields of long grass with nary a tree in sight and with photogenic vistas, hopefully accompanied by some wind and firm, running turf.

 

And lots of people in between with mix-and-match sets of those characteristics.

 

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."

 

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

 

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

[thug the bunny]

A links is the oldest style of golf course, first developed in Scotland. The word "links" comes via the Scots language from the Old English word hlinc : "rising ground, ridge"^[1] and refers to an area of coastal sand dunes and sometimes to open parkland. Links land is typically characterised by dunes, an undulating surface, and a sandy soil unsuitable for arable farming but which naturally supports various indigenous browntop bents and red fescue grasses, that result in the firm turf associated with links courses and the 'running' game.^{[clarification needed]} It also retains this more general meaning in standard Scottish English. It can be treated as singular even though it has an "s" at the end and occurs in place names that precede the development of golf, for example Lundin Links, Fife.^[2]

 

Again, my humpdy dumpdy opinion is a links course is a real links anywhere there is open natural and native grassland. It's really not that complicated. Here is one of the boundaries of Erin Hills:

 

 

 

Those things filling most of the picture all the way out to the horizon are called trees, a large conglomeration of which is commonly referred to as woods, or sometimes forest. QED, Erin Hills is not a real links, but a links-style course.

 

As some here have noted, the links craze here in the US was spawned by the romanticism of the Irish/Scottish courses and the desire of golfers to pretend that they are golfing across the pond. If that's what blows your kilt up, have at it laddie. Me, I just remember first playing a new course in my area called Twisted Dunes back in the 90s. The course itself was a gorgeous links style, but I remember seeing dark green dense woods all around the perimeter and thinking it was kind of silly.

[Bad9]

A links is the oldest style of golf course, first developed in Scotland. The word "links" comes via the Scots language from the Old English word hlinc : "rising ground, ridge"^[1] and refers to an area of coastal sand dunes and sometimes to open parkland. Links land is typically characterised by dunes, an undulating surface, and a sandy soil unsuitable for arable farming but which naturally supports various indigenous browntop bents and red fescue grasses, that result in the firm turf associated with links courses and the 'running' game.^{[clarification needed]} It also retains this more general meaning in standard Scottish English. It can be treated as singular even though it has an "s" at the end and occurs in place names that precede the development of golf, for example Lundin Links, Fife.^[2]

 

Again, my humpdy dumpdy opinion is a links course is a real links anywhere there is open natural and native grassland. It's really not that complicated. Here is one of the boundaries of Erin Hills:

 

 

 

Those things filling most of the picture all the way out to the horizon are called trees, a large conglomeration of which is commonly referred to as woods, or sometimes forest. QED, Erin Hills is not a real links, but a links-style course.

 

As some here have noted, the links craze here in the US was spawned by the romanticism of the Irish/Scottish courses and the desire of golfers to pretend that they are golfing across the pond. If that's what blows your kilt up, have at it laddie. Me, I just remember first playing a new course in my area called Twisted Dunes back in the 90s. The course itself was a gorgeous links style, but I remember seeing dark green dense woods all around the perimeter and thinking it was kind of silly.

 

I don't even think it's a links style course, it just looks somewhat like one. To me links golf also refers to how you play the gamer. On a true links course weather(usually wind) and turf conditions make it tougher to play through the air, target golf. It is much more on the ground. Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, Kiawah Island Ocean Course and Pinehurst do not play like a links in that regard.

[thug the bunny]

A links is the oldest style of golf course, first developed in Scotland. The word "links" comes via the Scots language from the Old English word hlinc : "rising ground, ridge"^[1] and refers to an area of coastal sand dunes and sometimes to open parkland. Links land is typically characterised by dunes, an undulating surface, and a sandy soil unsuitable for arable farming but which naturally supports various indigenous browntop bents and red fescue grasses, that result in the firm turf associated with links courses and the 'running' game.^{[clarification needed]} It also retains this more general meaning in standard Scottish English. It can be treated as singular even though it has an "s" at the end and occurs in place names that precede the development of golf, for example Lundin Links, Fife.^[2]

 

Again, my humpdy dumpdy opinion is a links course is a real links anywhere there is open natural and native grassland. It's really not that complicated. Here is one of the boundaries of Erin Hills:

 

 

 

Those things filling most of the picture all the way out to the horizon are called trees, a large conglomeration of which is commonly referred to as woods, or sometimes forest. QED, Erin Hills is not a real links, but a links-style course.

 

As some here have noted, the links craze here in the US was spawned by the romanticism of the Irish/Scottish courses and the desire of golfers to pretend that they are golfing across the pond. If that's what blows your kilt up, have at it laddie. Me, I just remember first playing a new course in my area called Twisted Dunes back in the 90s. The course itself was a gorgeous links style, but I remember seeing dark green dense woods all around the perimeter and thinking it was kind of silly.

 

I don't even think it's a links style course, it just looks somewhat like one. To me links golf also refers to how you play the gamer. On a true links course weather(usually wind) and turf conditions make it tougher to play through the air, target golf. It is much more on the ground. Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, Kiawah Island Ocean Course and Pinehurst do not play like a links in that regard.

 

IMO playing along the ground used to be an added element defining links courses, but has become outdated. Pros have played the Open through the air for a long time now, with the exception of around the greens. I think Whistling Straits is a links, as that region around Lake Michigan is predominantly grassland. I have never considered Pinehurst a links, although I do love how they converted all the areas that are not golf course proper back to natural vegetation instead of verdant green grass.

[Bad9]

A links is the oldest style of golf course, first developed in Scotland. The word "links" comes via the Scots language from the Old English word hlinc : "rising ground, ridge"^[1] and refers to an area of coastal sand dunes and sometimes to open parkland. Links land is typically characterised by dunes, an undulating surface, and a sandy soil unsuitable for arable farming but which naturally supports various indigenous browntop bents and red fescue grasses, that result in the firm turf associated with links courses and the 'running' game.^{[clarification needed]} It also retains this more general meaning in standard Scottish English. It can be treated as singular even though it has an "s" at the end and occurs in place names that precede the development of golf, for example Lundin Links, Fife.^[2]

 

Again, my humpdy dumpdy opinion is a links course is a real links anywhere there is open natural and native grassland. It's really not that complicated. Here is one of the boundaries of Erin Hills:

 

 

 

Those things filling most of the picture all the way out to the horizon are called trees, a large conglomeration of which is commonly referred to as woods, or sometimes forest. QED, Erin Hills is not a real links, but a links-style course.

 

As some here have noted, the links craze here in the US was spawned by the romanticism of the Irish/Scottish courses and the desire of golfers to pretend that they are golfing across the pond. If that's what blows your kilt up, have at it laddie. Me, I just remember first playing a new course in my area called Twisted Dunes back in the 90s. The course itself was a gorgeous links style, but I remember seeing dark green dense woods all around the perimeter and thinking it was kind of silly.

 

I don't even think it's a links style course, it just looks somewhat like one. To me links golf also refers to how you play the gamer. On a true links course weather(usually wind) and turf conditions make it tougher to play through the air, target golf. It is much more on the ground. Erin Hills, Whistling Straits, Kiawah Island Ocean Course and Pinehurst do not play like a links in that regard.

 

IMO playing along the ground used to be an added element defining links courses, but has become outdated. Pros have played the Open through the air for a long time now, with the exception of around the greens. I think Whistling Straits is a links, as that region around Lake Michigan is predominantly grassland. I have never considered Pinehurst a links, although I do love how they converted all the areas that are not golf course proper back to natural vegetation instead of verdant green grass.

 

Most of the area around WS is much flatter than the course itself. They moved ALOT of dirt to get it like it is.

[North Butte]

I have never considered Pinehurst a links, although I do love how they converted all the areas that are not golf course proper back to natural vegetation instead of verdant green grass.

 

I like the current version of Pinehurst #2 a lot and prefer it to the way it looked and playing in the 80's, 90's and early 00's. But that "natural" vegetation at is as artificially-maintained a construct as any blinding white amoeba shaped Tom Fazio bunker. Given its adjacency to ample fertilizers and water, if left ungroomed those "natural" areas would develop into a solid mass of weeds and grass in a matter of months.

[ConcentricDimples]

To the posters who post pictures of the 9th green (a par 3) as evidence it is not a links course, did you take a look at the other 17 holes? Most of them most-certainly can accept a run-up shot, and in fact did on Sunday (and would have more if it had been dry).

 

Would anyone say that there are no Par 3's in all of the British Isles links land that have bunkers in front of the green?

[thug the bunny]

I have never considered Pinehurst a links, although I do love how they converted all the areas that are not golf course proper back to natural vegetation instead of verdant green grass.

 

I like the current version of Pinehurst #2 a lot and prefer it to the way it looked and playing in the 80's, 90's and early 00's. But that "natural" vegetation at is as artificially-maintained a construct as any blinding white amoeba shaped Tom Fazio bunker. Given its adjacency to ample fertilizers and water, if left ungroomed those "natural" areas would develop into a solid mass of weeds and grass in a matter of months.

 

Just because they cut it back does not make it artificial. At least it is native vegetation. I wish my course would maintain the masses of weeds and bushes and vines and thorns around the boundaries of many holes. A lot of that crap wraps around the backside of the greens only 10 yds off. Thank you Mr Ross.

[thug the bunny]

To the posters who post pictures of the 9th green (a par 3) as evidence it is not a links course, did you take a look at the other 17 holes? Most of them most-certainly can accept a run-up shot, and in fact did on Sunday (and would have more if it had been dry).

 

Would anyone say that there are no Par 3's in all of the British Isles links land that have bunkers in front of the green?

 

No, no, not just that one hole, but the entire course was carved out of woodland (whether it was a farmer or Hurdzan an Frye). Did you take a look at the trees stretching out to the horizon, or read the rest of this thread?

[North Butte]

I don't think Donald Ross is the guy determining how your course is maintained 100 years after the fact!

 

My point is, deep rough or short-mown "chipping areas" or imported sand bunkers or "native areas" or water hazards are all choices when it comes to what is immediately adjacent to fairways and greens. Each options has its costs and each option affects how the course plays.

 

I find the "native areas" of sandy hardpan with clumps of wiry grass to be a very enjoyable and visually interesting option, as long as it is appropriate to the area in which a course resides. But if it were truly "natural" (like the vines and thorns you describe) I'd hate it. Almost everyone nowadays wants to play golf in a way that doesn't really occur "naturally" outside of a few ideal soil+climate areas around the world.

[Argonne69]

 

Most of the area around WS is much flatter than the course itself. They moved ALOT of dirt to get it like it is.

 

Nope. They moved very little dirt. You must be thinking of Whistling Straits.

[ckay]

I think the USGA is tailoring the venues to what they perceive as "exciting" golf. 350yd bombs and low scores. But, being 10 pages in, I am pretty sure that has been mentioned already. Me? I would like to watch these guys suffer. Like a ball under a bunch of trees, or an area surrounding the green with less than perfect turf with maybe an embedded acorn right behind the ball. Stuff we mortal golfers deal with every round. But then again, the ball will just bounce off of a spectator, rather than rolling into the woods like it does for us.

[Argonne69]

To the posters who post pictures of the 9th green (a par 3) as evidence it is not a links course, did you take a look at the other 17 holes? Most of them most-certainly can accept a run-up shot, and in fact did on Sunday (and would have more if it had been dry).

 

Would anyone say that there are no Par 3's in all of the British Isles links land that have bunkers in front of the green?

 

No, no, not just that one hole, but the entire course was carved out of woodland (whether it was a farmer or Hurdzan an Frye). Did you take a look at the trees stretching out to the horizon, or read the rest of this thread?

 

Yes, there were trees on the property that were removed, but it was certainly not a woodland.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/golf/2017-us-open/2017/06/06/making-erin-hills-complete-story/375374001/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=

[Bad9]

Most of the area around WS is much flatter than the course itself. They moved ALOT of dirt to get it like it is.

 

Nope. They moved very little dirt. You must be thinking of Whistling Straits.

 

I was WS=Whistlng Straits

[thug the bunny]

I don't think Donald Ross is the guy determining how your course is maintained 100 years after the fact!

 

My point is, deep rough or short-mown "chipping areas" or imported sand bunkers or "native areas" or water hazards are all choices when it comes to what is immediately adjacent to fairways and greens. Each options has its costs and each option affects how the course plays.

 

I find the "native areas" of sandy hardpan with clumps of wiry grass to be a very enjoyable and visually interesting option, as long as it is appropriate to the area in which a course resides. But if it were truly "natural" (like the vines and thorns you describe) I'd hate it. Almost everyone nowadays wants to play golf in a way that doesn't really occur "naturally" outside of a few ideal soil+climate areas around the world.

 

Agree with all this Butte. Donald Ross intended that any areas that are not 'in play' should just be natural, and like you,I like this. I just wish my course could manage that junk a little better so that balls, dogs, and children don't go missing when they venture into the stuff. But, I will still take the junk over courses where anywhere off the fairway is widely spaced trees and beautiful manicured 1" rough. When play that kind of course I get bored and don't even aim off the tees and hit it as hard as I can. My Ross course has taught me through many hard lessons and $$ lost to swing under control.

[thug the bunny]

Most of the area around WS is much flatter than the course itself. They moved ALOT of dirt to get it like it is.

 

Nope. They moved very little dirt. You must be thinking of Whistling Straits.

 

Hey Arg, WS = Whistling Straits

[North Butte]

I don't think Donald Ross is the guy determining how your course is maintained 100 years after the fact!

 

My point is, deep rough or short-mown "chipping areas" or imported sand bunkers or "native areas" or water hazards are all choices when it comes to what is immediately adjacent to fairways and greens. Each options has its costs and each option affects how the course plays.

 

I find the "native areas" of sandy hardpan with clumps of wiry grass to be a very enjoyable and visually interesting option, as long as it is appropriate to the area in which a course resides. But if it were truly "natural" (like the vines and thorns you describe) I'd hate it. Almost everyone nowadays wants to play golf in a way that doesn't really occur "naturally" outside of a few ideal soil+climate areas around the world.

 

Agree with all this Butte. Donald Ross intended that any areas that are not 'in play' should just be natural, and like you,I like this. I just wish my course could manage that junk a little better so that balls, dogs, and children don't go missing when they venture into the stuff. But, I will still take the junk over courses where anywhere off the fairway is widely spaced trees and beautiful manicured 1" rough. When play that kind of course I get bored and don't even aim off the tees and hit it as hard as I can. My Ross course has taught me through many hard lessons and $$ lost to swing under control.

 

I think the key difference is we put waaaay more water and fertilizer onto our golf courses than Donald Ross envisioned. All that stuff runs off into the native areas and turn them into brambly jungle.

[thug the bunny]

To the posters who post pictures of the 9th green (a par 3) as evidence it is not a links course, did you take a look at the other 17 holes? Most of them most-certainly can accept a run-up shot, and in fact did on Sunday (and would have more if it had been dry).

 

Would anyone say that there are no Par 3's in all of the British Isles links land that have bunkers in front of the green?

 

No, no, not just that one hole, but the entire course was carved out of woodland (whether it was a farmer or Hurdzan an Frye). Did you take a look at the trees stretching out to the horizon, or read the rest of this thread?

 

Yes, there were trees on the property that were removed, but it was certainly not a woodland.

 

http://www.jsonline....Key=&autologin=

 

Yes, but that is because 20, 50, or maybe 100 yrs ago farmers removed the trees. That does not make it a real links. If you look at a satellite images of that area, it is mostly open farm fields. However, if the farmers did not keep those fields open, it would all revert back to northern hardwood forest - maples, ash, birch, elm, and aspen. Also, in satellite imagery you can still see some surviving patches of woods that are thick, green, and dense.

 

I think most people would consider altering the land to build a city is 'unnatural', but it's a little frightening how we take man's alteration of the land for agriculture or horticulture as 'natural'. Ask any Native American what is their opinion on this matter.

 

I guess I should copy this because I have a feeling I'm going to be reposting it numerous times.

[johnseg]

To the posters who post pictures of the 9th green (a par 3) as evidence it is not a links course, did you take a look at the other 17 holes? Most of them most-certainly can accept a run-up shot, and in fact did on Sunday (and would have more if it had been dry).

 

Would anyone say that there are no Par 3's in all of the British Isles links land that have bunkers in front of the green?

 

No, no, not just that one hole, but the entire course was carved out of woodland (whether it was a farmer or Hurdzan an Frye). Did you take a look at the trees stretching out to the horizon, or read the rest of this thread?

 

Yes, there were trees on the property that were removed, but it was certainly not a woodland.

 

http://www.jsonline....Key=&autologin=

 

Yes, but that is because 20, 50, or maybe 100 yrs ago farmers removed the trees. That does not make it a real links. If you look at a satellite images of that area, it is mostly open farm fields. However, if the farmers did not keep those fields open, it would all revert back to northern hardwood forest - maples, ash, birch, elm, and aspen. Also, in satellite imagery you can still see some surviving patches of woods that are thick, green, and dense.

 

I think most people would consider altering the land to build a city is 'unnatural', but it's a little frightening how we take man's alteration of the land for agriculture or horticulture as 'natural'. Ask any Native American what is their opinion on this matter.

 

I guess I should copy this because I have a feeling I'm going to be reposting it numerous times.

What you say is absolutely true. The 1992 image shows not many trees at all on the property which I am sure is much different than what you would have seen in the 1600's with the first French explorers visited the area.

 

Yes this land was likely cleared of trees but it wasn't for the purpose of building a golf course.

[Argonne69]

Most of the area around WS is much flatter than the course itself. They moved ALOT of dirt to get it like it is.

 

Nope. They moved very little dirt. You must be thinking of Whistling Straits.

 

Hey Arg, WS = Whistling Straits

 

Doh! You are correct, sir. WS is definitely not a links course. It was a flat farm field until Pete Dye brought in his Tonka toys and rearranged the landscape. It may look like links, but does not play like it.

[North Butte]

Since at least the time Steve Wynn was building his golf wonderland out in the Nevada desert, it's been clear that with enough money and a large enough expanse of empty land you can create most any style of golf course you want, anywhere you want it. The only question is how much money to build it and how much money to maintain it in the form you envisioned. And I suppose whether you can continue to get the water rights to keep it up and running.

[PGArox]

Good for you - courage of convictions is not often enough displayed in this world. Rarely do you see people stubbornly cling to things that everyone knows are incorrect.

 

Good on ya.

 

I'd do so with full endorsement of the PGA Tour, USGA, Golf Digest, Golf, Golf Week, etc. And your source ? The voices in your head....

 

NoTalentLefty is absolutely correct, and I will back up my assertion not with an uninformed opinion, but with fact.

 

According to Merriam-Webster, the foremost authority on the English language as spoken in the United States of America, the very first definition of "style" is - a particular kind, sort or type, as with reference to form, appearance or character.

 

Case closed. Erin Hills is a links style course. Next topic.

[ConcentricDimples]

To the posters who post pictures of the 9th green (a par 3) as evidence it is not a links course, did you take a look at the other 17 holes? Most of them most-certainly can accept a run-up shot, and in fact did on Sunday (and would have more if it had been dry).

 

Would anyone say that there are no Par 3's in all of the British Isles links land that have bunkers in front of the green?

 

No, no, not just that one hole, but the entire course was carved out of woodland (whether it was a farmer or Hurdzan an Frye). Did you take a look at the trees stretching out to the horizon, or read the rest of this thread?

 

Yes thug bunny, I've followed most of this thread. I am one of the camp (and going back to last year) who heavily is in favor of trees.

 

I agree inland Wisconsin would be covered with trees naturally (just look off-property there).

 

My point was that while this is not in links land in the U.K., the course is designed to mimic the links experience.

 

And specifically my point was maybe one hole requires carry to a green, but most others can be run up. And my pint was also that on links courses in the U.K. there are Par 3s with forced carry.

[ConcentricDimples]

So Brandel says 60 yard wide fairways are needed to accommodate the longer hitters to make the amplified dispersion fair for them.

 

I dunno, but that argument is a bit thin. If longer hitters are entitled to wider fairways to accommodate their dispersion, why can't short hitters be entitled to shorter holes, or poor putters flatter greens, or poor ball strikers huge greens?

[PGArox]

So Brandel says 60 yard wide fairways are needed to accommodate the longer hitters to make the amplified dispersion fair for them.

 

I dunno, but that argument is a bit thin.

 

That's putting it nicely.

[HighSpeedScene]

Wonder how many folks opining have actually played Erin Hills?

 

Yes, it's got the rolling terrain, some rumply fairways and scraggly bunkers and the long grass. Looks fairly natural. Because of it's sand base, can play very firm and fast. But it doesn't play anything close to a links - my opinion, and it's shared by everyone I've ever talked to that has experience with both.

 

You want to use the visual cues and say they tried to incorporate some aesthetic elements of links golf, ok, but it's just not anything close to a links in form or character (to borrow from above).

 

 

[mjtoal]

So Brandel says 60 yard wide fairways are needed to accommodate the longer hitters to make the amplified dispersion fair for them.

 

I dunno, but that argument is a bit thin. If longer hitters are entitled to wider fairways to accommodate their dispersion, why can't short hitters be entitled to shorter holes, or poor putters flatter greens, or poor ball strikers huge greens?

 

There should be a rule that longer hitters can hit less club and take advantage of the wider angle then made available to them. These poor long hitters shouldn't be forced to slog away with driver all day.