Thoughts on why people are walking away from the game...

[wrmiller]

Some folks don't consider skiing a 'mainstream sport' is all. But I'm sure those who do it regularly would disagree.

 

I just thought that a bit humorous is all. Not picking on you.

[josey]

Golf is expensive, time consuming, and difficult. Its hard to casually play golf and enjoy it. But places such as Top Golf is awesome to bring people in. Go to Vegas top golf or any for that matter and its usually packed with people having a damn good time.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Some folks don't consider skiing a 'mainstream sport' is all. But I'm sure those who do it regularly would disagree.

 

I just thought that a bit humorous is all. Not picking on you.

I didn't take it as picking on me, no worries. Looks like about 15M ski/Snowboard in the USA vs golf 20M. So not as mainstream as golf but still hardly a niche sport either.

[caniac6]

Played a nearly 5hr round yesterday. If this was a normal thing, I would be an exclusive 9 hole golfer, on an ex golfer.

[ItIsJack]

IMO it’s the cost of a round that is pushing people away. The cheapest courses are around $50 for 18 holes. I see new courses with 6 tee boxes, huge greens and 10 bunkers on every hole. I think the way a lot of courses are designed require a lot of maintenance costs which leads to expensive rates for golfers

[hybrid25]

Golf is expensive, time consuming, and difficult. Its hard to casually play golf and enjoy it.

Geez, I wonder how the millions upon millions of golfers play casually and enjoy it? To me, the difficulty of golf, ironically, is also it's shining allure.

[nsxguy]

Some folks don't consider skiing a 'mainstream sport' is all. But I'm sure those who do it regularly would disagree.

 

I just thought that a bit humorous is all. Not picking on you.

I didn't take it as picking on me, no worries. Looks like about 15M ski/Snowboard in the USA vs golf 20M. So not as mainstream as golf but still hardly a niche sport either.

 

Not a "niche sport" ? Hardly a sport at all. A sport is about competing and/or keeping a score competing against oneself. Occasionally 2 skiers will race to the bottom of a hill. The other 99.9% are admiring the view while trying to have fun. A lot of guys can barely pull the club back without a least a couple of bucks on the line.

 

There are a dozen and a half major ski areas, very few of which are within a short travel time of a major population center. It's a "destination" sport for the most part - a golf course is within 10-60 minutes drive of most of the country.

 

Ski "season" is about 4 months (if you're lucky) in the MAJOR areas; far shorter in lesser areas. "Prime" skiing conditions run about 2 months in the northeast - if they're lucky. Golf is year 'round in a 3rd of the country, 8-9 months in another 3rd of the country and ~ 4 (good) months in the northern tier.

 

You claimed golf, at about $10 per hour, (after equipment expenses) is "significantly less expensive" than skiing. Ski equipment and golf equipment are close in price and a day's lift ticket is what now ? About $60-$80 ? First lift at 8 (or 9 ?), last at 4. That's about $10 per hour.

 

You called skiing "mainstream". Given the above I would suggest it's a niche sport; regardless of the number of "skiers" there are compared to golfers.

 

I can practice within 10 minutes of my home. Driving range, chipping and putting. Where do I practice skiing ?

 

I would guess, given your username here you're a big time ski buff. And in western NY you are probably a lot closer to decent/great skiing than I was on Long Island. No problem. I loved it too. So don't get me wrong. I absolutely LOVED skiing and once it got in my blood I would go whenever it was possible/practical. Problem was, living in NYC, it wasn't very practical and the closest hill, Vernon Valley, about 90 minutes from me, was pretty boring. The golf at Vernon Valley, OTOH, was actually very good.

 

Oh, and actually, I'm not picking on you either. ;)

[HatsForBats]

IMO it’s the cost of a round that is pushing people away. The cheapest courses are around $50 for 18 holes. I see new courses with 6 tee boxes, huge greens and 10 bunkers on every hole. I think the way a lot of courses are designed require a lot of maintenance costs which leads to expensive rates for golfers

 

Golf has always been considered costly but I don't see how it has gotten out of hand. In my area you can play as cheap as $17 for walking 18 holes in the late afternoon on a weekday at a goat track up to $100 for a top end public course on the weekend morning riding a cart. There are a wide range of options and costs.

[rlconklin]

I think it's just the way the country in general has changed. When we were kids, we'd be outside all the time playing baseball or football, riding bikes, etc. Now kids are addicted to video games and if they want to play golf, they download the latest version of "Tiger Woods Golf" and play on their computer.

[geesecougar2]

If people were good enough to enjoy the sensation of perfectly struck shots, sweet up and downs, and making birdies, the expense and time wouldn't stop them from playing at least once every month or so.

 

The problem is most of them don't know what that sensation feels like so they don't get drawn back to the game. They don't know that sensation because it's a difficult game.

[FourTops]

IMO those who REALLY get hooked on golf like to challenge themselves. Sometimes folks "over-challenge" themselves with overly-long tee boxes...much like skiing down an advance track without knowing the basics...or trying to play Eddie Van Halen's Eruption after a few months of practice. Skiing and guitar let one know PDQ that they stink. Golf has a way of giving folks that "one shot" that hooks them.

 

But the thing with golf is...IMO...it's an analytical sport which some folks find out is not for them. And like guitar or piano...it can be very humbling to the point the "narcissists" don't feel comfortable looking stupid.

[FadeFace]

I don’t know how too play

Takes too long

Don’t have the time

Two kids family and a mortgage

All just excuses. I’ve convinced a few guys too come out and play at our company best ball Texas scramble tournament...low and behold they have a good time. It just seems too the outsider it’s all money and time reality is you can setup a fine used bag and if you don’t have 3 hours in a day for yourself you got other problems.

[FourTops]

I don't know how too play

Takes too long

Don't have the time

Two kids family and a mortgage

All just excuses. I've convinced a few guys too come out and play at our company best ball Texas scramble tournament...low and behold they have a good time. It just seems too the outsider it's all money and time reality is you can setup a fine used bag and if you don't have 3 hours in a day for yourself you got other problems.

 

Well...with parents shuffling kids all over town to play year-round sports...it's nearly impossible to find time for some folks. It's not the old days where kids went to school, came home and played in the backyard. Everything is organized and if "your kid" is not participating, he/she gets teased...or isn't part of the click.

 

This is why golf is losing steam...parents are over-loaded with work and kid transport.

[Willstuart2328]

Okay, my two sense. Back 10-12 years ago I bought a brand new set of Mizuno mp60’s off the rack for $600... I bought my brand new 910D for $220 off eBay. So in a short span of time the price of clubs has essentially doubled. Golf manufactures have to hit numbers to make shareholders happy, pay salaries, pay players, and most importantly to them... pay bonuses.

 

Also, the price of rounds has increased- couple that with the fact you’re lucky to play 18 holes on a nice public cours in less than 5 hours. It’s not fun. I’ll play a crap muni for $36 and get done in 3 to 4 hours all day before I go spend $80-$120 to wait after every shot and then have a Marshall tell me I’m behind pace. No Sh$t buddy.

[Willstuart2328]

And to add on - have the average salaries or hourly wages doubled to adjust to the higher cost of golf? No way. A startup Salary out of college in 05 is probably not much different than today... maybe $7k a year more.

[FourTops]

And to add on - have the average salaries or hourly wages doubled to adjust to the higher cost of golf? No way. A startup Salary out of college in 05 is probably not much different than today... maybe $7k a year more.

 

$7k...that's like $2.50 per hour. Ecuadorian housekeepers make more than that.

[aliikane]

I have played golf all my life since I was 5. Competitively as a junior and the last 42 years. I have met a lot of great people on the golf course but also there are a lot of a-holes. The a-holes can suck the fun out of a round to the point where you are leaving the course more annoyed rather than "that was fun". When the a-holes overshadow the fun of golf is when I have been distancing myself further and further from playing golf. No reason to spend a lot of money on golf for it not to be enjoyable.

[cliche]

IMO it’s the cost of a round that is pushing people away. The cheapest courses are around $50 for 18 holes. I see new courses with 6 tee boxes, huge greens and 10 bunkers on every hole. I think the way a lot of courses are designed require a lot of maintenance costs which leads to expensive rates for golfers

 

consider that. normal 18 holes fees here in switzerland are about 100SFr on a weekday. mostly 120SFr on weekends. and those are the fees for muni courses.

[MountainGoat]

Golf is for optimists, and there are fewer and fewer of those around.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Some folks don't consider skiing a 'mainstream sport' is all. But I'm sure those who do it regularly would disagree.

 

I just thought that a bit humorous is all. Not picking on you.

I didn't take it as picking on me, no worries. Looks like about 15M ski/Snowboard in the USA vs golf 20M. So not as mainstream as golf but still hardly a niche sport either.

 

Not a "niche sport" ? Hardly a sport at all. A sport is about competing and/or keeping a score competing against oneself. Occasionally 2 skiers will race to the bottom of a hill. The other 99.9% are admiring the view while trying to have fun. A lot of guys can barely pull the club back without a least a couple of bucks on the line.

 

There are a dozen and a half major ski areas, very few of which are within a short travel time of a major population center. It's a "destination" sport for the most part - a golf course is within 10-60 minutes drive of most of the country.

 

Ski "season" is about 4 months (if you're lucky) in the MAJOR areas; far shorter in lesser areas. "Prime" skiing conditions run about 2 months in the northeast - if they're lucky. Golf is year 'round in a 3rd of the country, 8-9 months in another 3rd of the country and ~ 4 (good) months in the northern tier.

 

You claimed golf, at about $10 per hour, (after equipment expenses) is "significantly less expensive" than skiing. Ski equipment and golf equipment are close in price and a day's lift ticket is what now ? About $60-$80 ? First lift at 8 (or 9 ?), last at 4. That's about $10 per hour.

 

You called skiing "mainstream". Given the above I would suggest it's a niche sport; regardless of the number of "skiers" there are compared to golfers.

 

I can practice within 10 minutes of my home. Driving range, chipping and putting. Where do I practice skiing ?

 

I would guess, given your username here you're a big time ski buff. And in western NY you are probably a lot closer to decent/great skiing than I was on Long Island. No problem. I loved it too. So don't get me wrong. I absolutely LOVED skiing and once it got in my blood I would go whenever it was possible/practical. Problem was, living in NYC, it wasn't very practical and the closest hill, Vernon Valley, about 90 minutes from me, was pretty boring. The golf at Vernon Valley, OTOH, was actually very good.

 

Oh, and actually, I'm not picking on you either. ;)

OK we can use the word "Activity" in place of "sport" if you want to play semantics.

 

As for cost of skiing v golf, it's obviously been a while for you. Lift passes start in the mid $70s at a few but mostly around $80 and up to $150 for some of the bigger US mountains. As for equipment costs, they really aren't similar by the time you add in boots and the right base layer, outerwear plus helmet and goggles... golf is a lot less expensive to get into. Sure in either you can run up the equipment cost to ridiculous levels but it's definitely not necessary.

 

However I don't want to dwell on the above because my main point was about those that say "golf is too expensive." Sure perhaps in major metro east of the Hudson river and large western cities and large metro areas in general. However there's a lot of country in between where golf is not very expensive. Like I said there are a lot of quality courses in western NY that can be walked for $25 to $40. Continue westward and I know our Midwest members can tell you the same. Add in twilight rates and 9 hole rates and we're talking under $20 in most locations.

[HatsForBats]

Okay, my two sense. Back 10-12 years ago I bought a brand new set of Mizuno mp60's off the rack for $600...

 

https://valueguide.pga.com/library/524/iron-set/mizuno/mp-60/?s=2

 

MSRP (new):

$1200.00

[hobbes928]

opportunity cost is higher than other sports/activities in terms of time and money.

[CMCSGolf]

opportunity cost is higher than other sports/activities in terms of time and money.

 

Yes, as I said earlier in the thread: the alternatives to golf are better now than they were in 1990 or 1960. Video games may not be attractive to 50 year old men now, but they are to current 14 year olds and that's what matters. Had the plethora of options available today existed 50 years ago, I think the same thing would have happened earlier in history.

[wrmiller]

Hey, I'm in my 60s and have been playing video games since they were invented. I even have a PC set up specifically for games.

 

I may not be the norm though... :crazy:

[Ferguson]

opportunity cost is higher than other sports/activities in terms of time and money.

 

 

 

 

WRX - your one stop shop for medical and legal advice, now featuring microeconomics insight.

[nsxguy]

Okay, my two sense. Back 10-12 years ago I bought a brand new set of Mizuno mp60's off the rack for $600... I bought my brand new 910D for $220 off eBay. So in a short span of time the price of clubs has essentially doubled. Golf manufactures have to hit numbers to make shareholders happy, pay salaries, pay players, and most importantly to them... pay bonuses.

 

 

Beg to disagree - and sorry, but eBay don't count, at least not in this case.

[heavy_hitter]

If I had to play at a Muni during season, I would never play again.

[nsxguy]

Some folks don't consider skiing a 'mainstream sport' is all. But I'm sure those who do it regularly would disagree.

 

I just thought that a bit humorous is all. Not picking on you.

I didn't take it as picking on me, no worries. Looks like about 15M ski/Snowboard in the USA vs golf 20M. So not as mainstream as golf but still hardly a niche sport either.

 

Not a "niche sport" ? Hardly a sport at all. A sport is about competing and/or keeping a score competing against oneself. Occasionally 2 skiers will race to the bottom of a hill. The other 99.9% are admiring the view while trying to have fun. A lot of guys can barely pull the club back without a least a couple of bucks on the line.

 

There are a dozen and a half major ski areas, very few of which are within a short travel time of a major population center. It's a "destination" sport for the most part - a golf course is within 10-60 minutes drive of most of the country.

 

Ski "season" is about 4 months (if you're lucky) in the MAJOR areas; far shorter in lesser areas. "Prime" skiing conditions run about 2 months in the northeast - if they're lucky. Golf is year 'round in a 3rd of the country, 8-9 months in another 3rd of the country and ~ 4 (good) months in the northern tier.

 

You claimed golf, at about $10 per hour, (after equipment expenses) is "significantly less expensive" than skiing. Ski equipment and golf equipment are close in price and a day's lift ticket is what now ? About $60-$80 ? First lift at 8 (or 9 ?), last at 4. That's about $10 per hour.

 

You called skiing "mainstream". Given the above I would suggest it's a niche sport; regardless of the number of "skiers" there are compared to golfers.

 

I can practice within 10 minutes of my home. Driving range, chipping and putting. Where do I practice skiing ?

 

I would guess, given your username here you're a big time ski buff. And in western NY you are probably a lot closer to decent/great skiing than I was on Long Island. No problem. I loved it too. So don't get me wrong. I absolutely LOVED skiing and once it got in my blood I would go whenever it was possible/practical. Problem was, living in NYC, it wasn't very practical and the closest hill, Vernon Valley, about 90 minutes from me, was pretty boring. The golf at Vernon Valley, OTOH, was actually very good.

 

Oh, and actually, I'm not picking on you either. ;)

OK we can use the word "Activity" in place of "sport" if you want to play semantics.

 

As for cost of skiing v golf, it's obviously been a while for you. Lift passes start in the mid $70s at a few but mostly around $80 and up to $150 for some of the bigger US mountains. As for equipment costs, they really aren't similar by the time you add in boots and the right base layer, outerwear plus helmet and goggles... golf is a lot less expensive to get into. Sure in either you can run up the equipment cost to ridiculous levels but it's definitely not necessary.

 

However I don't want to dwell on the above because my main point was about those that say "golf is too expensive." Sure perhaps in major metro east of the Hudson river and large western cities and large metro areas in general. However there's a lot of country in between where golf is not very expensive. Like I said there are a lot of quality courses in western NY that can be walked for $25 to $40. Continue westward and I know our Midwest members can tell you the same. Add in twilight rates and 9 hole rates and we're talking under $20 in most locations.

 

My main point was not activity vs. sport but about you calling skiing "mainstream", number of participants aside. If you want to compare apples to apples you'd compare number of rounds of golf played per year vs. number of days of lift tickets sold per year. Wonder how that would look ?

 

But as for cost, they are very similar even IF lift tickets are sometimes $150. I believe you came up with "5 hours of golf for $10/hour". That's a fairly reasonable round of golf. As in your "mountains" there is a wide range of golf prices as well.

 

Clothes ? Your skiing purchases are more expensive but you can get by on a relatively small "wardrobe"; especially given the number of skiing days. Add in all the shirts, shorts, pants, balls, hats and shoes for golf and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

I have 5 pairs of shoes that all retailed for $100-$200. I only had ONE pair of boots that cost me about $300 (yes, over 10 years ago but).

[ef131313]

Golf is for retired folks with time to spare. I hope to be there someday soon.

[hybrid25]

Golf is for retired folks with time to spare. I hope to be there someday soon.

lol, what a great point. Maybe not.