What is with the Hating on the USGA?

[Darth Putter]

I agree! The USGA solicited responses on rolling the ball back...and I sent in my opinion, but I was also thinking that what I have to say will make absolutely no difference as they will do what they want to do regardless. They solicit feedback as a sop to the hoi polloi, but I doubt if any of that feedback will have any bearing on their decision.

The USGA solicited criticisms after publishing tentative changes to the rules for 2019. I responded, along with at least a few of my friends. The final rules different in a number of ways from the original version. Apparently the USGA listened then, there's no reason to think they'll NOT listen to feedback on the ball issue. Of course, there will be voices on all sides of the issue, so if they choose a specific path, that doesn't mean they didn't consider differing view, just that they made a different choice.

 

Well said my sentiments exactly--- First off was the groove rule of course everyone with the sense of a house fly knows they were in cahoots with all the major club manufacturers so folks would have to buy new wedges. Then the anchored putter ban they screwed up the whole ball of wax on that deal period--- their last little fiasco making folks that want to post handicap rounds play with someone so their round can be verified-

But the USGA structured the groove change so that nobody really had to buy new wedges, the old ones are still legal until 2024 for all except very elite competitions.

As for the anchored putter, anchoring a stroke against your body differs from my image of an acceptable golf stroke. I think the USGA tried their best to walk a fine line, allowing those clubs to remain legal, allowing players with back issues and other physical problems to stand straight up while putting, yet outlaw the anchoring part.

Handicapping, and solo rounds? Handicaps are intended to allow fair competition between players of differing abilities. Competition means playing WITH someone. Makes sense to me that the rounds that should determine a handicap are those where you actually do play with someone else.

 

Other than the groove thing, these are without doubt my opinions, they're not facts. But we're allowed to have differing opinions. Yours don't make you and idiot or a slob (trying for a little humor there), neither do mine make me an idiot or a snob. And I'll ask yet again, what would anyone propose as an alternative? I've read a suggestion for the PGA of America, any others? Or is anarchy a better choice?

 

Wouldn't the R&A be the obvious replacement for the USGA?

[Ashley Schaeffer]

rangersgoalie:

"You mention Titleist constantly." I don't know about "constantly." I want to mention them often enough so as to make a few points; 1) that they are an activist anti-rollback organization; 2) they appear to have an enormous financial stake in ball regulations, although I don't see how they'd be damaged; 3) even if Titleist faced some costs, the USGA still has the right to revise its own set of Rules that it has been overseeing for the last 100 years; 4) Titleist-contracted Tour players have deep conflicts of interest on the issue of ball regulations.

 

"Do you believe a roll back will not force Titleist, or any company to not have to retool, redeveloped and change their entire Business?" Maybe. But the Rules are made by the USGA and the R&A, for the good of the game as they judge it.

 

"Titleist is a ball company that also sell equipment. That equipment, is also tied to what the ball does in testing." Okay. I have nine Titleist cubs in my bag right now. What is your point?

 

"Forcing any company to change their processes, and potentially (yes potentially) lose market share is punishment." Absurd. That is like saying that a change in tax laws or environmental rules or fuel economy standards is "punishment." An absurdist definition of "punishment". In any event, I never wrote, suggested or implied that Titleist should be "punished."

 

Those costs and potential revenue I,pacts are precisely why they SHOULD use any means to fight a solution to perceived problems "Any means..." That's sort of extreme. I expect that a big part of what the USGA will be doing in advance of a ball rollback will be to make sure that they can defend it in litigation. If Titleist does threaten a lawsuit, I hope that they are exposed for it.

 

Get an associate to rewrite this. Half as long.

[davep043]

 

Wouldn't the R&A be the obvious replacement for the USGA?

Its possible, I suppose, but they've essentially been partners on a lot of stuff for a good while. If the USGA is "deposed", I'd guess that the R&A might go along with them.

[Shilgy]

rangersgoalie:

"You mention Titleist constantly." I don't know about "constantly." I want to mention them often enough so as to make a few points; 1) that they are an activist anti-rollback organization; 2) they appear to have an enormous financial stake in ball regulations, although I don't see how they'd be damaged; 3) even if Titleist faced some costs, the USGA still has the right to revise its own set of Rules that it has been overseeing for the last 100 years; 4) Titleist-contracted Tour players have deep conflicts of interest on the issue of ball regulations.

 

"Do you believe a roll back will not force Titleist, or any company to not have to retool, redeveloped and change their entire Business?" Maybe. But the Rules are made by the USGA and the R&A, for the good of the game as they judge it.

 

"Titleist is a ball company that also sell equipment. That equipment, is also tied to what the ball does in testing." Okay. I have nine Titleist cubs in my bag right now. What is your point?

 

"Forcing any company to change their processes, and potentially (yes potentially) lose market share is punishment." Absurd. That is like saying that a change in tax laws or environmental rules or fuel economy standards is "punishment." An absurdist definition of "punishment". In any event, I never wrote, suggested or implied that Titleist should be "punished."

 

Those costs and potential revenue I,pacts are precisely why they SHOULD use any means to fight a solution to perceived problems "Any means..." That's sort of extreme. I expect that a big part of what the USGA will be doing in advance of a ball rollback will be to make sure that they can defend it in litigation. If Titleist does threaten a lawsuit, I hope that they are exposed for it.

 

Get an associate to rewrite this. Half as long.

not when you're billing by the hour.

 

Good gracious. I really do hope that 15 is not associated with the USGA but is just a real-where the hell is Kymar when we need him?- sycophant.

 

I would expect that if/when any rollback is announced Titleist-and the other ball manufacturers- will file legal action. But they will certainly not do so secretly. Don't worry 15 they will be exposed for their legal action along with the others lol.

 

His whole seeming hatred for Titleist is irrational. He claims to play Titleist clubs but seemingly cannot fathom why ill thought out rules changes would be harmful to their business model. The idea that the rest of the 99.99% of the players should be forced to change their entire bag of equipment and balls to satisfy a handful of folks in an ivory tower nodding all knowingly that it is for the "good of the game" is laughable.

[North Texas]

15th - IF the new regulations come out that call for a rollback of 20-25% of ALL golf balls across the board, would you support that? You keep talking about this mythical ball that wont effect slower swing speeds, but some of us know that's not really feasible. So, if anything is done, it will effect everyone from the recreational senior to the full ranks of elite golfers and everyone in between. Do you support that?

 

This is not meant to be questioning your expertise or anything like that but I am genuinely curious about this.

 

Can you succinctly, in laymen's terms, explain why it isn't feasible to have a ball that won't affect slower swing speeds as much as it would higher swing speeds?

 

Thanks.

 

And, for the record, I am very confident that an across the board rollback of 20-25% will never happen. Despite how stupid some people think they are, the USGA is not that stupid.

[rangersgoalie]

1) they are a ball company that seeks equipment

Why is that an issue

 

If you change the ball the equipment designs will change as well

 

I get it

You don’t care if a business gets screwed, even though they followed rules put forth by an increasingly inept association. Worse, you think it’s wrong if they defend themselves

 

So a small number of courses can host a minimal percentage of golfers while still feeling like they are the biggest bestest kid on the block

[davep043]

Ladies and gents, I may be bowing out of this discussion in another day, as I leave for Scotland on Friday, and I need to use my time packing, jumping up and down in excitement, unpacking, changing my selections, and repacking. While in Scotland, I plan to try to find some of those old UK golf balls, the ones that are smaller and go further in the wind. Of course, they'll also be wound balatas, I don't think they've made the small golf balls for decades, so maybe I don't really want them. Anyway, I haven't given up my positions, I'm just gone golfing. :yahoo: :yahoo:

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Ladies and gents, I may be bowing out of this discussion in another day, as I leave for Scotland on Friday, and I need to use my time packing, jumping up and down in excitement, unpacking, changing my selections, and repacking. While in Scotland, I plan to try to find some of those old UK golf balls, the ones that are smaller and go further in the wind. Of course, they'll also be wound balatas, I don't think they've made the small golf balls for decades, so maybe I don't really want them. Anyway, I haven't given up my positions, I'm just gone golfing. :yahoo: :yahoo:

 

Have a helluva time, man!

 

EDIT: Make sure you play those old courses as the designer intended.

[Sean2]

Ladies and gents, I may be bowing out of this discussion in another day, as I leave for Scotland on Friday, and I need to use my time packing, jumping up and down in excitement, unpacking, changing my selections, and repacking. While in Scotland, I plan to try to find some of those old UK golf balls, the ones that are smaller and go further in the wind. Of course, they'll also be wound balatas, I don't think they've made the small golf balls for decades, so maybe I don't really want them. Anyway, I haven't given up my positions, I'm just gone golfing. :yahoo: :yahoo:

 

Have a great trip...and please give my regards to the R&A. :-)

[ThinkingPlus]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

[Sean2]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

 

Well, I don't hate the USGA, and I certainly don't fear them. Their impact on me and my game is minimal. I think they are a bit misguided, given some of their past rulings, but I don't lose sleep over the USGA.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

 

Well, I don't hate the USGA, and I certainly don't fear them. Their impact on me and my game is minimal. I think they are a bit misguided, given some of their past rulings, but I don't lose sleep over the USGA.

I'll go one step further and say they really don't listen to the largest group of golfers. I think they have an agenda and then make it look like they listened.

 

Now with that said, with the new 2019 rule changes maybe their making small and positive changes.

[Sean2]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

 

Well, I don't hate the USGA, and I certainly don't fear them. Their impact on me and my game is minimal. I think they are a bit misguided, given some of their past rulings, but I don't lose sleep over the USGA.

I'll go one step further and say they really don't listen to the largest group of golfers. I think they have an agenda and then make it look like they listened.

 

Now with that said, with the new 2019 rule changes maybe their making small and positive changes.

 

I got that impression about them as well.

[disco111]

Rest assured that there will be no roll back of the golf ball. I'm pretty sure with the advent of "COR" limits, that equipment has also (face wise) reached the end of it's limits. As for the solution to the distance bru ha ha, that can be rectified with course conditioning and there would be no further need for expensive redevelopment of courses, if in fact they deem that necessary. The USGA is very aware of all the discussions and heart burn regarding this situation and they know that they can't allow further distance factors to be implemented. The game as it stands today will and has come to a distance dead end. I'm not a big advocate of the USGA, for a few personal reasons, but they are the controlling authority and they will do what's necessary to keep the game functioning.

[Mdemuth]

Listening to Mike Davis's "interviews" are enough reason....

 

Here he is right here....

 

[media=]

[/media]

[bscinstnct]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

 

Yes, but in this case, they have no true groundswell of support from either

 

The golfing public or

 

The Tour

 

They just are rallying around Jack, and lets face it, hes completely irrelevant on this, to attempt some importance.

 

This is a huge risk for them and they will lose.

 

To save face, I imagine they will end up recommending a ball "freeze".

 

 

[bscinstnct]

Listening to Mike Davis's "interviews" are enough reason....

 

Here he is right here....

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Ha! You read my mind, he looks just like that guy.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

Listening to Mike Davis's "interviews" are enough reason....

 

Here he is right here....

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Ha! You read my mind, he looks just like that guy.

LOL... OMG Nailed HIM!

[ThinkingPlus]

Listening to Mike Davis's "interviews" are enough reason....

 

Here he is right here....

 

[media=]

[/media]

"Inconceivable!"

"I do na think you understand the meaning of that word."

Princess Bride is one of my all time favorite movies.

[Outlier]

The USGA is far out of touch with the average golfer........the PGA of America is trying to help grow the game.

 

Honestly I don;t really want to "grow the game". I like to play and hate having to fight for tee times.

[Outlier]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

 

Yes, but in this case, they have no true groundswell of support from either

 

The golfing public or

 

The Tour

 

They just are rallying around Jack, and lets face it, hes completely irrelevant on this, to attempt some importance.

 

This is a huge risk for them and they will lose.

 

To save face, I imagine they will end up recommending a ball "freeze".

 

Yup....why doesn't Jack have his short balls at Murifield for a few years if he is so convinced it's the way to go. Otherwise, "with all due respect, I wish Jack would STFU".

[EKELLY]

Isn't the main point here that the USGA experimented with their course rotation at the same time massive technology was taking place in ball construction and driver ball speed? End result, a FEW traditional venues aren't long enough! Like we do on a regular basis, the USGA created their own problems, which for me, isn't really a problem at all......LOL

[North Texas]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

 

Yes, but in this case, they have no true groundswell of support from either

 

The golfing public or

 

The Tour

 

They just are rallying around Jack, and lets face it, hes completely irrelevant on this, to attempt some importance.

 

This is a huge risk for them and they will lose.

 

To save face, I imagine they will end up recommending a ball "freeze".

 

Yup....why doesn't Jack have his short balls at Murifield for a few years if he is so convinced it's the way to go. Otherwise, "with all due respect, I wish Jack would STFU".

 

SMDH

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

 

Yes, but in this case, they have no true groundswell of support from either

 

The golfing public or

 

The Tour

 

They just are rallying around Jack, and lets face it, hes completely irrelevant on this, to attempt some importance.

 

This is a huge risk for them and they will lose.

 

To save face, I imagine they will end up recommending a ball "freeze".

 

Yup....why doesn't Jack have his short balls at Murifield for a few years if he is so convinced it's the way to go. Otherwise, "with all due respect, I wish Jack would STFU".

 

SMDH

 

You can rightly "shake your damned head" or whatever that acronym means, but the guy has a point. If Nicklaus is so adamant, why won't he man up and require a nerf ball at his tournament? Get it done, Jackie. See what players come to play. Great opportunity.

[OrangeGravy]

I don't understand why anyone actually cares what the USGA does or doesn't do. 99% of golfers play by their own version of the rules anyway. Sure they've made some ruling flubs in tournaments on tour, but doesn't affect the general golfing public. If you play in high level am stuff, b**** away. You actually have some skin in the game. If not why waste your energy on any of it. Golfers are gonna play the way they've always played no matter the changes or not, the USGA makes. Until USGA officials start showing up at public golf courses issuing legally binding citations for not following their rules, I'm not gonna worry about any of it.

 

As far as the suggestion that the PGA of America take over the rules of golf. It might be a good idea, but do you really think they'd want to? Why would someone want to take on a job that is guaranteed to have everyone dislike you for some reason or another. As it sits now, everyone involved in golf other than the USGA/RnA gets to look like the good guys by default. Who in their right mind would opt to take on a no win situation? Same goes for the PGA/European Tours. Why would they take on their own rules making and risk the bad PR when things go wrong when the current arrangement completely insulates them from any blame? For them the current system is a win/win. When anything goes wrong on tour regarding the rules, they can just point the finger

[MountainGoat]

...

[Kevinx]

For those who "hate" the USGA, can you suggest an alternative?

 

You hate the rules, too complicated. Have you read the new rules? They're MUCH easier to read, but I do wonder if they're enough to address all of the potential situations. But if not the USGA, who should write the rules of the game?

 

As for pro's who can't get the rules right, most of the mistakes are on the simplest things. Where can I drop when taking relief from a water hazard? Do I really have to put the ball back exactly where I lifted it? It seems that many pros have never learned the rules that most of us know by heart, they're too lazy to actually read them.

 

You hate the Handicap System, it either encourages sandbagging by allowing self-posting, or it doesn't allow you to post your solo rounds. It seems like they've split things down the middle, so there are complaints from both sides. But really, how would YOU run it, and who should have control if not the USGA?

 

We have a thread here covering 68 pages or more, asking if distance has ruined the PGA tour, but you find it ludicrous that the USGA is researching the effects of distance on golf. Have you gone to the USGA website, read some of the data collected so far? Should the USGA simply ignore a topic that's important enough to merit 68 pages of discussion here?

 

There's no question that the USGA has mis-handled some rule situations in their tournaments, and has made what turn out to be poor choices in courses and/or set-ups. Yet some posters here want to see MORE public courses used, courses like Chambers Bay and Erin Hills. Maybe we should just eliminate the US Open, along with the entire USGA. But what do you want to put in place to perform the jobs that really do need to be done?

I don't hate the USGA. I wish it was more for the common people that the elites that play at country clubs. Look where all the opens are at. Also why are most all opens played in Blue states. Texas or Florida don't have good enough courses. Don't say the heat. It can be just as hot up north in June as anywhere up north.

[North Texas]

Typically we hate what we fear. In the case of the USGA we fear another groove rule, another anchoring ban, another DJ ruling, another dead green on #7 at Shinnicock, and on and on. We fear what is completely out of our control impacting a game we love to play by the rules because that is what makes it such a great game. So we hate.

 

Yes, but in this case, they have no true groundswell of support from either

 

The golfing public or

 

The Tour

 

They just are rallying around Jack, and lets face it, hes completely irrelevant on this, to attempt some importance.

 

This is a huge risk for them and they will lose.

 

To save face, I imagine they will end up recommending a ball "freeze".

 

Yup....why doesn't Jack have his short balls at Murifield for a few years if he is so convinced it's the way to go. Otherwise, "with all due respect, I wish Jack would STFU".

 

SMDH

 

You can rightly "shake your damned head" or whatever that acronym means, but the guy has a point. If Nicklaus is so adamant, why won't he man up and require a nerf ball at his tournament? Get it done, Jackie. See what players come to play. Great opportunity.

 

Naw. When your response to someone who you disagree with is to say that they should just STFU then you have no point and are pretty much a mental midget. Especially when that someone has accomplished what Jack has. He has earned and deserves respect whether you agree with him or not. And I don't even agree with him completely on the ball issue.

[15th Club]

The USGA is far out of touch with the average golfer........the PGA of America is trying to help grow the game.

Well said my sentiments exactly--- First off was the groove rule of course everyone with the sense of a house fly knows they were in cahoots with all the major club manufacturers so folks would have to buy new wedges. Then the anchored putter ban they screwed up the whole ball of wax on that deal period--- their last little fiasco making folks that want to post handicap rounds play with someone so their round can be verified--- As I have said many times The only thing they are interested in growing is their own bank accounts. Far as set ups for the US Open I have no problem at all with after all everyone in the tournament is playing the same course and conditions. What my main problem with the USGA is in a nutshell is that they have lost touch with the game as it pertains to the everyday Joe or Jane golfer

 

I don't know how else to address the bolded portion. It is a lie. It is a dumb myth, propounded by people who know just enough about golf and the USGA, to be dangerous.

 

Really, I want you all to know that this is why I am so hard-nosed and uncompromising about any mention of the groove rule and the USGA.

 

This is one of those occasions where all-caps is called for. To whoever wrote that the groove rule was rolled out in a way so as to force all players to buy new irons and wedges, I want you to imagine that we were sitting around a grill room table and we were with a bunch of guys all having a lighthearted conversation, and you made that assertion. I would have stopped the entire conversation and (hopefully not yelling, but in a voice that made everybody else stop talking, I said to you: NO; I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU GOT THAT NOTION, BUT IT IS UNTRUE. THE GROOVE RULE DID NOT MAKE OLD-DESIGN GROOVES UNUSABLE. ALL OF THE OLD EQUIPMENT IS STILL 'LEGAL' PER THE RULES OF GOLF. AND THE USGA NEVER WANTED TO FORCE ANY RECREATIONAL GOLFER TO RUN OUT AND BUY NEW EQUIPMENT THAT WAS SOMEHOW 'CONFORMING.' TOUR PLAYERS WERE REQUIRED TO USE THE NEW GROOVE CONFIGURATION IN THE FIRST YEAR (2010), PER A CONDITION OF COMPETITION. ELITE AMATEURS HAD ANOTHER THREE YEARS TO COMPLY. ALSO VIA A CONDITION OF COMPETITION. AND FOR CLUB EVENTS, HANDICAP COMPETITIONS, ETC., THE USGA RECOMMENDED THAT NO CONDITION BE IMPOSED.

 

It is simply an untrue myth, that any "folks were required to buy new wedges." The ignorance of that statement is further revealed insofar as the groove rule affected the new-manufacture of irons, in addition to "wedges."

[15th Club]

For those who "hate" the USGA, can you suggest an alternative?

 

You hate the rules, too complicated. Have you read the new rules? They're MUCH easier to read, but I do wonder if they're enough to address all of the potential situations. But if not the USGA, who should write the rules of the game?

 

As for pro's who can't get the rules right, most of the mistakes are on the simplest things. Where can I drop when taking relief from a water hazard? Do I really have to put the ball back exactly where I lifted it? It seems that many pros have never learned the rules that most of us know by heart, they're too lazy to actually read them.

 

You hate the Handicap System, it either encourages sandbagging by allowing self-posting, or it doesn't allow you to post your solo rounds. It seems like they've split things down the middle, so there are complaints from both sides. But really, how would YOU run it, and who should have control if not the USGA?

 

We have a thread here covering 68 pages or more, asking if distance has ruined the PGA tour, but you find it ludicrous that the USGA is researching the effects of distance on golf. Have you gone to the USGA website, read some of the data collected so far? Should the USGA simply ignore a topic that's important enough to merit 68 pages of discussion here?

 

There's no question that the USGA has mis-handled some rule situations in their tournaments, and has made what turn out to be poor choices in courses and/or set-ups. Yet some posters here want to see MORE public courses used, courses like Chambers Bay and Erin Hills. Maybe we should just eliminate the US Open, along with the entire USGA. But what do you want to put in place to perform the jobs that really do need to be done?

I don't hate the USGA. I wish it was more for the common people that the elites that play at country clubs. Look where all the opens are at. Also why are most all opens played in Blue states. Texas or Florida don't have good enough courses. Don't say the heat. It can be just as hot up north in June as anywhere up north.

 

Bethpage State Park (Public - State owned!)

Chambers Bay (Public)

Pebble Beach (Public)

Erin Hills (Public)

Pinehurst #2 (Public)

Torrey Pines (Public muni!)