NFL 2018-19 season discussion...

[JackpotJohnny]

Forget the calls in the chiefs game, Andy Reid’s horrible clock management lost that game for them before the half.

 

Calls a timeout on a critical 3rd down play, thinking they are going to get a stop and the ball back before the half against New England’s 2 min offense? Really?

Instead goes Into the half down 14-0. Made the entire difference in the game.

We can talk about blowing a timeout on a horrible challenge and not using any when they were getting ran over in OT too, or the fictitious roughing the passer call, but he blew the game for them way before that.

[dcmidnight]

No one will even remember the horrid non-call PI on the Brady-Dorsett touchdown either. Dorsett gets held and mugged and there was no flag.

 

Even Romo on the broadcast admitted how terrible a non call it was but it was "OK" since they scored.

[Darth Putter]

That call in the Saints/ Rams game was the worst one in all of sports since

 

[tatertot]

Forget the calls in the chiefs game, Andy Reid’s horrible clock management lost that game for them before the half.

 

Calls a timeout on a critical 3rd down play, thinking they are going to get a stop and the ball back before the half against New England’s 2 min offense? Really?

Instead goes Into the half down 14-0. Made the entire difference in the game.

We can talk about blowing a timeout on a horrible challenge and not using any when they were getting ran over in OT too, or the fictitious roughing the passer call, but he blew the game for them way before that.

 

There should be an over/under line in Vegas on how many clock management mistakes Andy Reid will make in a playoff game. (Hint - always take the over. Always.)

[CasualLie]

I can't believe the Twitter generation in New Orleabs, including the owner, thinks the NFL should step in and replay the game. Get over it. You lost; your coach blew it. Run the ball three times, run out Ram timeouts, kick field goal and play a little D; game over.

 

Note to Jerry Jones: if you come to your senses and fire Garrett, do not hire Payton. He's not a closer.

 

 

[PappyVanWinkle53]

I thought it was nice to see Drew Brees finally on the short end of the stick officiating wise. My even bigger wonder is what was Robey-Coleman doing, if he looked at the ball at all that play, its likely a pick six....

 

You’re kidding, right? Drew Brees is among the most stand up guys in the league. The Saints don’t get any favoritism from officials.....over the past 10 or so years, they’ve been in the middle of the pack when it comes to team penalties (look it up).....so thanks for the fake news. In regards to your other question, if Robey-Coleman had actually looked at the ball this entire controversy would be academic, wouldn’t it.

 

Lol, he just annoys me, I didn't say he's a bad person . I really don't mind seeing the bubble wrapped golden QB's of the league on the other end of calls. Plus for me, its long awaited karma for Ahmad Brooks: https://www.ninersna...ers-saints-2013

 

To me its not a controversy, the refs sucking is nothing new. We saw the Saints got hooked earlier on them missing a blatant facemask so they set the precedent. Games down the wire all season(s) have been effected by poor calls....maybe now they may attempt to right the ship.

 

So one questionable call justifies another??? I’m confused. And are you really trying to compare a call from week 11 in 2013 with one in the last 2 mins of the NFC Championship Game? Plus, no one was going to beat Seattle that year anyway. I will agree with you that something needs to be done to hold these refs accountable for sh*tty calls that determine the outcome of the game. Perhaps better use of replay by the refs.....then again, replay doesn’t solve everything, as evidenced by Brady and the tuck rule controversy.

 

You are confused...because you're taking this far too seriously lol. I simply didn't mind seeing Brees get a bad call (again, terrible call), and as a Niner fan yes I enjoyed it more due to the bad call favoring Brees, that had big implications for us in 2013. Thats really all, you added the rest trying to make it more than it is.

 

The Tuck Rule was more similar to the Dez Bryant catch/no catch because those were "correct" calls due to terrible rules. Implementing replay to potentially effect missed judgement calls such as PI in this case, will be different. Clearly we all know refs have sucked and blow calls at an alarming rate, but this will be an interesting slope, and given how the NFL "handles" things, I dont have great confidence in them positively fixing a scenario like this.

 

 

Agreed that it is a slippery slope with respect to replaying/challenging judgment penalties. Difficult to implement without then opening up the possibility of challenging every holding or offsides penalty. However, the ability to review whether or not contact was made prior to the ball arriving should be a pretty easy task....and fortunately, the NFL has already stated that they will be looking into PI replay during the offseason.....whether they'll actually do that or are just paying lip service.....we'll just have to see.

 

More broadly, you are right that the Saints should have never allowed the game to come down to a blown penalty. As my old wrestling coach used to say, "never let a match be determined by the call of the referee. Just beat your opponent." The Saints had plenty of opportunities to put the game away and they didn't. When faced with the same situation (OT), Brady and the Pats just drove down the field and scored a TD. All that being said, if we have the ability to take some kind of action to prevent this kind of a debacle from happening in the future, we should absolutely pursue it.

 

With respect to your assertion of taking it too seriously.....I take it seriously because I am a Saints fan, and it's heartbreaking to see them lose the way they did. Perhaps I am biased, but I do find it pretty sad that you, in your own words, take pleasure in the misfortune of others....particularly someone like Brees who is just an all around great guy. It wasn't Brees who made the bad call back in 2013, so I find it curious that he's the subject of your derision.

[dcmidnight]

The one argument that becomes exhausting to hear every time it happens is that "both teams deserve to get the ball on offense in OT". Why? Football is a measure of offense and defense. Mahomes didnt deserve to get the ball in OT just because he's Mahomes. Look the guy was the clear MVP this year, absolutely zero argument from me on that end. But stop the other team. The ideas being floated yesterday like playing a full 15 minute overtime sound terrible to me. There were so many OT games this year, and ties, that are just boring as heck to watch sometimes because both teams are just gassed. Then what if its tied at the end of that 15 - play more?

 

I think the current OT rules are as good as they are going to get.

 

And look, the in the moment generic bad calls, those are going to happen. But we have the technology to do quick replays - and we already have coaches challenges in the game. No need to not say OK in the postseason, coaches can use a challenge in the final 2 minutes on all PI or 15 yard penalties. Something like that. The bad calls that are game-altering, theres no reason from a technology standpoint that you cant re-look at those.

[CasualLie]

I still have not seen why NFL won't adopt the college style OT. If Defense can make a key stop in the red zone, then they deserve the win.

 

Mahomes clear MVP??? Hope not! I put a nice $100 bet pre-season at great odds Drew Brees would get MVP! Mahomes is good, no doubt, but as it has been said many times, it the Defense that wins Championships. Even if the defense gives up 30 points, if they cannot make the key stop at the end, then sorry, no win. Brady threw some clutch passes, Edelman made some key catches, but it's not like KC didn't know what was coming! KC defense looked helpless in the 4th qtr / OT.

[dcmidnight]

I still have not seen why NFL won't adopt the college style OT. If Defense can make a key stop in the red zone, then they deserve the win.

 

I think the converse would be something like, if you cant stop a team from marching 80 yards on you in overtime then you dont deserve the win.

[jerebear21]

Colts vs pats 2007 was a better game.

 

Chiefs look hopeless in overtime. Perhaps cuz the defense was out there for almost 100 plays.

 

My favorite nfc final was Bucs vs eagles in Philadelphia. Top 5 defense of all time. But no one gives them any credit.

[highergr0und]

I still have not seen why NFL won't adopt the college style OT. If Defense can make a key stop in the red zone, then they deserve the win.

 

I think the converse would be something like, if you cant stop a team from marching 80 yards on you in overtime then you dont deserve the win.

 

What about teams built around a good offense and subpar defense? With that argument, the league gets so boring again as everyone will focus on defense.

 

The problem with NFL OT is the odds are skewed towards whoever wins the coin flip. Mix in a few teams with a large disparity between their defense and offense, and you get what you got. When is the last time a team winning the flip didn't take the ball? In the NE game, it was really apparent that neither defense could stop the others offense late in the game. I'd imagine that coin flip winner probably had something like a 75-80% chance of winning.

 

With college rules, both teams are allowed to showcase their offense and defense no matter what. It's completely fair. The NFL just seems to be too stubborn to adopt the things that college has done. Start them on the 35 to make the initial FG a bit more risky and go for it.

[highergr0und]

I can't believe the Twitter generation in New Orleabs, including the owner, thinks the NFL should step in and replay the game. Get over it. You lost; your coach blew it. Run the ball three times, run out Ram timeouts, kick field goal and play a little D; game over.

 

Note to Jerry Jones: if you come to your senses and fire Garrett, do not hire Payton. He's not a closer.

 

Should you be forced into a strategy because you're worried the refs might mess up? Payton was trying to win the game.

 

With the strategy he used, they were up by 3 with 1:41 left and Rams had 1 timeout

 

If they ran 3 times, up by 3 with 1:00 left and Rams have no time outs

 

If the penalty was called, they're kicking the FG with about 15-20 seconds left if they run 3 times, rams with no time outs

 

The third option wins probably 99.99/100 if the kick is made. I'm curious what the odds are on the other two, my guess is closer than you think since neither allows much running and both require throws downfield to be completed. The 1:41 w/ a timeout allows a few extra plays and the ball to go to the middle of the field

[dcmidnight]

What about teams built around a good offense and subpar defense? With that argument, the league gets so boring again as everyone will focus on defense.

 

The problem with NFL OT is the odds are skewed towards whoever wins the coin flip. Mix in a few teams with a large disparity between their defense and offense, and you get what you got. When is the last time a team winning the flip didn't take the ball? In the NE game, it was really apparent that neither defense could stop the others offense late in the game. I'd imagine that coin flip winner probably had something like a 75-80% chance of winning.

 

With college rules, both teams are allowed to showcase their offense and defense no matter what. It's completely fair. The NFL just seems to be too stubborn to adopt the things that college has done. Start them on the 35 to make the initial FG a bit more risky and go for it.

 

Subpar? KC gave up over 500 yards of offense in that game and almost *100* plays - thats straight garbage. If not for a horrid Brady decision on that end zone pick, its 21-0 at halftime. I dont need a team to "focus on defense" but how about focus on not being trash (fwiw they axed their DC today).

 

Sorry but in cases like that - IN MY OPINION - I'm not sure that team deserves a chance to win.

 

The OT rules as they are seem fine. If you stop the team and they have to kick a FG - you get the ball back. Period. And by the way, you dont just have 25 or 35 yards to stop them like in college. You have the whole field! Stop them, get the ball back. If you are arguing for college rules because all the defense has to do is hold them to a field goal - then surely that should be easy enough when you have the entire field for your defense to play with.

[bubbagump]

Agreed that it is a slippery slope with respect to replaying/challenging judgment penalties. Difficult to implement without then opening up the possibility of challenging every holding or offsides penalty. However, the ability to review whether or not contact was made prior to the ball arriving should be a pretty easy task....and fortunately, the NFL has already stated that they will be looking into PI replay during the offseason.....whether they'll actually do that or are just paying lip service.....we'll just have to see.

 

More broadly, you are right that the Saints should have never allowed the game to come down to a blown penalty. As my old wrestling coach used to say, "never let a match be determined by the call of the referee. Just beat your opponent." The Saints had plenty of opportunities to put the game away and they didn't. When faced with the same situation (OT), Brady and the Pats just drove down the field and scored a TD. All that being said, if we have the ability to take some kind of action to prevent this kind of a debacle from happening in the future, we should absolutely pursue it.

 

With respect to your assertion of taking it too seriously.....I take it seriously because I am a Saints fan, and it's heartbreaking to see them lose the way they did. Perhaps I am biased, but I do find it pretty sad that you, in your own words, take pleasure in the misfortune of others....particularly someone like Brees who is just an all around great guy. It wasn't Brees who made the bad call back in 2013, so I find it curious that he's the subject of your derision.

 

You should have said youre a Saints fan, Im pretty sure everybody on the planet feels for you guys to have a season end that way. But again yes, too serious lol. Its simply fandom in sports, has no basis of reality or actual ill will toward a person, so quit with the holier than thou judgment. I simply just never dug Brees, Im really not sure how its that complicated (other than you being a saints fan)? Im sure you aren't a giant Cam Newton fan? Think Matt Ryan is overrated? That would be the same difference....

[bubbagump]

The one argument that becomes exhausting to hear every time it happens is that "both teams deserve to get the ball on offense in OT". Why? Football is a measure of offense and defense. Mahomes didnt deserve to get the ball in OT just because he's Mahomes. Look the guy was the clear MVP this year, absolutely zero argument from me on that end. But stop the other team. The ideas being floated yesterday like playing a full 15 minute overtime sound terrible to me. There were so many OT games this year, and ties, that are just boring as heck to watch sometimes because both teams are just gassed. Then what if its tied at the end of that 15 - play more?

 

I think the current OT rules are as good as they are going to get.

 

And look, the in the moment generic bad calls, those are going to happen. But we have the technology to do quick replays - and we already have coaches challenges in the game. No need to not say OK in the postseason, coaches can use a challenge in the final 2 minutes on all PI or 15 yard penalties. Something like that. The bad calls that are game-altering, theres no reason from a technology standpoint that you cant re-look at those.

 

OT rules I used to think the same as you mentioned, but with the recent handicapping of the defense via the new rules etc....I just don't think its quite a 50/50 shake anymore. Id say 1 possession each team is a fair alternative imo.

 

Defense doesn't win championships anymore, as none of the final four teams really feature that strong of a defense. They can hold it down in spurts, but all in all nobody is going to remember any of the teams for their defenses. Just because they won in other ways (offense) doesn't mean they didn't "deserve" to win, thats kind of crazy to say.

[dcmidnight]

Its no more crazy than saying overtime has to be "fair". It is fair. You dont automatically lose the game if you lose the coin toss.

 

You stop the other team, your offense gets a possession. You hold them to a field goal, your offense gets a possession. You create a turnover, your offense gets a possession.

 

KC gave up 5 first downs and at least 3 huge chunk plays on 3rd downs on that drive. Hold them just once, they get the ball back.

[dcmidnight]

BTW if you believe that the rules are biased against defenses - which would make crappy defenses even worse off - wouldn't you rather have the team that loses the toss have 80 yards of field to defend? Otherwise they - theoretically - would just get trucked in every possession from the 25.

[adam667220]

From a KC fan, who happened to be at the game....the OT rules is about #10 on the list of reasons we lost that game. Offense scoring zero points in the first half, our line not blocking anyone the entire game, our defense not stopping one 3rd and long attempt, our offsides penalty, etc. etc. etc..

[bubbagump]

Its no more crazy than saying overtime has to be "fair". It is fair. You dont automatically lose the game if you lose the coin toss.

 

You stop the other team, your offense gets a possession. You hold them to a field goal, your offense gets a possession. You create a turnover, your offense gets a possession.

 

KC gave up 5 first downs and at least 3 huge chunk plays on 3rd downs on that drive. Hold them just once, they get the ball back.

 

What you said, and the OT rules aren't really comparable to me. Stating a team doesnt "deserve" to win because of X reason is kind of moot to the situation of OT. If youre looking at it that way, the Pats gave up a 14-0 lead, and allowed 24 points in the 4th quarter....would you say they "deserved" to win? I just thought thats not really relevant factoring those things into an OT discussion.

 

Yes, if teams are going to play OT, I would expect that the goal is for it to be fair as it could be, as is the games themselves. I dont think OT is inherently unfair at all that wasnt my point, I just think it favors the team that wins the coin toss more often then not, and with rules now days defenses are already at a disadvantage so it just makes it a more difficult task. I also think alot of people question that it truly is the best format, as its a pretty common topic during offseason rule change discussions.

 

To be clear, to me I would just have each team have a possession, thats just what I think. However Im generally fine with the way it is now as well, because I also realize that there really is not perfect OT solution, and likely whatever the NFL would change it to, would still have issues. Also, the OT rules arent the reason teams lose in OT either.

[CasualLie]

I can't believe the Twitter generation in New Orleabs, including the owner, thinks the NFL should step in and replay the game. Get over it. You lost; your coach blew it. Run the ball three times, run out Ram timeouts, kick field goal and play a little D; game over.

 

Note to Jerry Jones: if you come to your senses and fire Garrett, do not hire Payton. He's not a closer.

 

Should you be forced into a strategy because you're worried the refs might mess up? Payton was trying to win the game.

 

With the strategy he used, they were up by 3 with 1:41 left and Rams had 1 timeout

 

If they ran 3 times, up by 3 with 1:00 left and Rams have no time outs

 

If the penalty was called, they're kicking the FG with about 15-20 seconds left if they run 3 times, rams with no time outs

 

The third option wins probably 99.99/100 if the kick is made. I'm curious what the odds are on the other two, my guess is closer than you think since neither allows much running and both require throws downfield to be completed. The 1:41 w/ a timeout allows a few extra plays and the ball to go to the middle of the field

 

It's not forcing a strategy. These coaches have all the stats at their fingertips to know the best play call and strategy. History dictates you run the ball. One decent run and they get another first down, maybe break one for a TD. Obviously the strategy they used was pretty stupid, they left way too much time on the clock and ultimately lost. And yes, obviously they get the penalty called and odds of winning go way, way, up. I wouldn't call it 99.99 because it's Payton and the Saints...(haha! really it's football and crazy things can happen)...but let's say 95%? Option 2 is also very high. Rams with 1:00 and no timeouts from their own 25 is a lot more pressure than 1:41 with 1 TO. 1:41 you can be a little patient, even run the ball with a draw to fool the defense, play the middle of the field. With 1:00 and not TOs it is a mad scramble and favors the defense heavily.

 

Oh well...does not matter now. I just can't believe how ridiculous grown adults are over the loss. Buying billboards?!? Lawsuits?!? WTF...like little children who unfairly got their favorite toy taken away by Mom.

 

It's no wonder Payton is being very quiet these days. But we all know he is at home kicking himself for going against convention, going against the history of great teams and great coaches for what? Drew Brees to be a hero? To show he has no confidence in his defense at home in front of a screaming crowd? That's really the sad part. Fans want to be screaming about the injustice but guess what? Your coach cost you, not the refs.

[tatertot]

I can't believe the Twitter generation in New Orleabs, including the owner, thinks the NFL should step in and replay the game. Get over it. You lost; your coach blew it. Run the ball three times, run out Ram timeouts, kick field goal and play a little D; game over.

 

Note to Jerry Jones: if you come to your senses and fire Garrett, do not hire Payton. He's not a closer.

 

Should you be forced into a strategy because you're worried the refs might mess up? Payton was trying to win the game.

 

With the strategy he used, they were up by 3 with 1:41 left and Rams had 1 timeout

 

If they ran 3 times, up by 3 with 1:00 left and Rams have no time outs

 

If the penalty was called, they're kicking the FG with about 15-20 seconds left if they run 3 times, rams with no time outs

 

The third option wins probably 99.99/100 if the kick is made. I'm curious what the odds are on the other two, my guess is closer than you think since neither allows much running and both require throws downfield to be completed. The 1:41 w/ a timeout allows a few extra plays and the ball to go to the middle of the field

 

It's not forcing a strategy. These coaches have all the stats at their fingertips to know the best play call and strategy. History dictates you run the ball. One decent run and they get another first down, maybe break one for a TD. Obviously the strategy they used was pretty stupid, they left way too much time on the clock and ultimately lost. And yes, obviously they get the penalty called and odds of winning go way, way, up. I wouldn't call it 99.99 because it's Payton and the Saints...(haha! really it's football and crazy things can happen)...but let's say 95%? Option 2 is also very high. Rams with 1:00 and no timeouts from their own 25 is a lot more pressure than 1:41 with 1 TO. 1:41 you can be a little patient, even run the ball with a draw to fool the defense, play the middle of the field. With 1:00 and not TOs it is a mad scramble and favors the defense heavily.

 

Oh well...does not matter now. I just can't believe how ridiculous grown adults are over the loss. Buying billboards?!? Lawsuits?!? WTF...like little children who unfairly got their favorite toy taken away by Mom.

 

It's no wonder Payton is being very quiet these days. But we all know he is at home kicking himself for going against convention, going against the history of great teams and great coaches for what? Drew Brees to be a hero? To show he has no confidence in his defense at home in front of a screaming crowd? That's really the sad part. Fans want to be screaming about the injustice but guess what? Your coach cost you, not the refs.

 

You have no clue ... You depend on the strongest part of your team. You have a HOF quarterback, you put the ball in his hands. A first down there, game over. And the call worked. Belichick has done the exact same thing in the past.

[highergr0und]

Yep. If you go run 3x you're more or less guaranteeing you're trying a field goal. It's the conventional strategy. Payton's calls really weren't that bad. That 1st down pass is one Brees usually hits all day long, but he threw it low. 2nd down run, yep. And the 3rd down play was a fairly high percentage throw that also is a good one for drawing penalties.

 

At the end of the day, everyone knows the refs blew a call that drastically changed the game. The more folks offer excuses for it, the less likely the league does anything and you have to hope it's not your team next time.

[jerebear21]

giving a team 1 minute 40 seconds left is not the same as giving them 55 seconds left; the internal clock is rushed and a young QB facing that pressure is a coin flip at best to actually get into field goal range.

 

i believe payton blew the play calling. penalties been part of this game since beginning of time. They didn't lose cuz they didn't get PI call. Breezy threw an interception and the defense couldn't stop them in OT. What's up with that?

[jerebear21]

Brady first and last super bowl will be against the rams. How fitting.

 

Called it.

 

Bill did what Payton couldn’t. Run it to run the clock out and play the percentage.

[Nixhex524]

Brady first and last super bowl will be against the rams. How fitting.

 

Called it.

 

Bill did what Payton couldn't. Run it to run the clock out and play the percentage.

 

You're assuming this is Brady's last one.... I wouldn't be so quick to make that call....

[jerebear21]

He’s not winning another one. And that’s nothing against him. Father Time has caught up. He wasn’t exactly the sharpest passer this year and the stats backed it up.

 

This year was belichick greatest coaching season. A heck of a defensive scheme during this playoff run.

[PappyVanWinkle53]

Brady is GOAT of GOATs. Six weeks ago, hardly anyone thought it was gonna be the Pats’ year (again).

[highergr0und]

I am already depressed that football season is over, and extra so because of the way the championships and SB played out. I hope the league can fix some of its issues in the offseason.

[cdnglf]

Brady is GOAT of GOATs. Six weeks ago, hardly anyone thought it was gonna be the Pats’ year (again).

 

Game manager of game managers

[jerebear21]

I didn’t see a game manager when he beat Kansas City.

 

Far from a patriots fan. Trent Dilfer was a game manager that won a super bowl.