Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

[bladehunter]

Lol ^. Yep. And that’s what I intend to do. That and try to find different folks to play with.

 

Eh ...on the complaining. I’m not a big believer in the word “ whining “. People that complain of whiners are doing the same thing. Just a different subject of complaint. ( not shooting that at your head ). If there’s a reason to complain then it’s just that. A complaint. I see no reason to accept anything I’m unhappy about. Change for changes sake is just ignorant. There are things that need changing. This wasn’t one of them.

[nsxguy]

Lol ^. Yep. And that's what I intend to do. That and try to find different folks to play with.

 

Eh ...on the complaining. I'm not a big believer in the word " whining ". People that complain of whiners are doing the same thing. Just a different subject of complaint. ( not shooting that at your head ). If there's a reason to complain then it's just that. A complaint. I see no reason to accept anything I'm unhappy about. Change for changes sake is just ignorant. There are things that need changing. This wasn't one of them.

 

Sounds like a complaint. :lol:

[I_HATE_SNOW]

If you want the flag pulled, then pull it, put it back when you are done. I'm not messing with them unless using it to get my ball out of the hole. 18 less times to bend over a round. One couple we golf with, has never touched a flag, we always pulled it and put it back. Always tempted to ask him if he knows how much a flag weighs.

[A.Princey]

If you want the flag pulled, then pull it, put it back when you are done. I'm not messing with them unless using it to get my ball out of the hole. 18 less times to bend over a round. One couple we golf with, has never touched a flag, we always pulled it and put it back. Always tempted to ask him if he knows how much a flag weighs.

If nothing else, maybe leaving the flag in will deter the potato mashers from entering the hole to dig the ball out! Maybe the integrity of the hole's edge will remain intact longer than a few groups.

[bladehunter]

If you want the flag pulled, then pull it, put it back when you are done. I'm not messing with them unless using it to get my ball out of the hole. 18 less times to bend over a round. One couple we golf with, has never touched a flag, we always pulled it and put it back. Always tempted to ask him if he knows how much a flag weighs.

If nothing else, maybe leaving the flag in will deter the potato mashers from entering the hole to dig the ball out! Maybe the integrity of the hole's edge will remain intact longer than a few groups.

 

Maybe. But I doubt it. In fact I see them yanking the pin out to try to get the ball to pop out. Gouging the lip in the process.

 

What will be funny is to watch people pull the pin 4 times to get the balls out of the hole. Which I’m sure will make the game faster and faster. Lol.

 

 

No , in truth, Where it’s headed is for all putts inside a couple feet to count as holed. This rule will turn into the excuse for that to be necessary. To further “ speed up the game “.

[3eagles18]

Silly rule change, will have zero practical impact on pace of play, just a crutch to help putts go in. Populism rules, some of the essence of the game disappears 1/1/19.

 

I agree on pace of play. Assume a five some; will have to ask each player in or out. Walk back and forth and put in and take out.

[Mcgeeno]

I think you had a different experience than many groups of buddies will Blade.

 

Mine went like this: "Hey guys I think I'm gonna be a flag in dude next year, are you all cool trying it for a couple rounds?"

 

"Yeah sure why not"

 

And off we went. Now 3 of my main golf buddies are all flag in players.

 

Different people and different personalities I guess.

 

EDIT: One guy is still on the fence, but he's my best buddies father and is about 65. Tough to teach that old dog new tricks. He's stubborn and unwilling to listen most of the time.

[fairways4life]

I was just putting together my tentative tournament schedule for 2019. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out when paired up with random strangers in a tournament who might all have different preferences for the flagstick.

 

There are times when having the option to leave it in will undoubtedly help. For instance, you're in a twosome and you're on the green with a long putt while the other person is in a bunker. Once they slash out, you can go ahead and putt (provided their ball isn't in your line). You no longer have to wait for them to rake, get up to the pin and attend it for you.

 

But I also agree that this can backfire. Before there was no other option. But once you introduce options, things will slow down. It's like the line at a burger joint that only sells burgers or the line at the one that also sells chicken and fish and hot dogs and a million other things. The more options, the more things tend to slow down.

 

Four players who all want it left in = no problem. Four players who all want it out = no problem. But groups who are divided on the issue will see a slowdown.

 

I don't understand how pulling the flagstick was really slowing down the game anyway. If the players involved aren't completely incompetent, the player who will be last to putt will attend to or pull the flagstick. So that player is not slowing anything down because they can't be hitting their putt at that time anyway. Of all the things that slow down play, the ruling bodies decided that this was worthy of a rule change(?) What needed to be changed was just better awareness of people. It can be frustrating playing with someone who doesn't get the flagstick when they are supposed to. Then you're left to go do it despite being the next person to putt. But I guess it's easier to change a rule than it is to teach awareness.

[davep043]

 

I don't understand how pulling the flagstick was really slowing down the game anyway. If the players involved aren't completely incompetent, the player who will be last to putt will attend to or pull the flagstick. So that player is not slowing anything down because they can't be hitting their putt at that time anyway. Of all the things that slow down play, the ruling bodies decided that this was worthy of a rule change(?) What needed to be changed was just better awareness of people. It can be frustrating playing with someone who doesn't get the flagstick when they are supposed to. Then you're left to go do it despite being the next person to putt. But I guess it's easier to change a rule than it is to teach awareness.

The ruling bodies changed a number of things with the stated goal of speeding up play, this wasn't the only one. Reducing the search time to 3 minutes, authorizing a competition with a maximum hole score, the model local rule for an alternate to stroke and distance, and specific language encouraging ready golf were all aimed at improving pace of play. I agree with most others, I'm not crazy about the change to the flagstick rule, and I'm doubtful that it will actually speed things up. On the other hand, it isn't as if this change has overturned centuries of tradition, the penalty for hitting the flagstick (in stroke play) only came into effect in 1968.

[Forward Observer]

Whether or not it speeds play will probably depend on how many beers have been consumed and how much sh*t we want to give to the guy who's the oddball.

[nsxguy]

I think we're all overthinking this flagstick stuff. And thinking it will actually slow down play rather than speed it up.

 

First of all, let's not forget that speeding up play doesn't mean just our own 4-some. I'd think fully 50% of the people on the course, especially on the weekends when the most hackers are out and the rounds are the slowest and most aggravating, while they take the flag out now, do so "just because" they know they should and not because it's a rule because they don't really care about any rules.

 

But starting Jan 1, when it's legal to leave the flag in they'll (almost) ALL leave it in, because they can, and therefore the course SHOULD move along better.

 

As for our own 4-somes,,,,,,, I try to think about what happens now. Generally nobody goes very near the pin until all 4 balls are on the green and 1 or more of them are usually a fair bit away from the hole. So the 1st guy putting no longer has to worry about the flag being pulled and he will generally get ready and putt, sometimes before anybody gets to the flag or at least before someone gets TO the flag. Some time savings there.

 

And then the flag will be attended/pulled/put back by the guy whose ball is closest to the hole. While the others putt the guy holding the flag will be a few paces to the side, out of the putter's line of sight, ready to either put the flag back or or take it back out,,,,,,,, or leave it in or out for everybody.

 

When it's his turn to putt he'll either leave/put it in and go and putt himself.

 

Net-net I think it'll save a little time. A lot ? Probably not but then, over a course of a round and roughly 144 putts, a few seconds here and there on each putt can certainly add up.

 

And all of these time savers are measured (mostly) in seconds, or minutes at most (3 mins for lost ball instead of 5). LIttle bit here, little bit there and hopefully it'll all add up,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I think. :dntknw:

[bladehunter]

Whether or not it speeds play will probably depend on how many beers have been consumed and how much sh*t we want to give to the guy who's the oddball.

 

Thanks for describing the adversarial situations that I foresee with this. Just as I said. Most assume it’s a new rule to keep it in. Not a choice as to in or out.

[Shilgy]

 

I don't understand how pulling the flagstick was really slowing down the game anyway. If the players involved aren't completely incompetent, the player who will be last to putt will attend to or pull the flagstick. So that player is not slowing anything down because they can't be hitting their putt at that time anyway. Of all the things that slow down play, the ruling bodies decided that this was worthy of a rule change(?) What needed to be changed was just better awareness of people. It can be frustrating playing with someone who doesn't get the flagstick when they are supposed to. Then you're left to go do it despite being the next person to putt. But I guess it's easier to change a rule than it is to teach awareness.

The ruling bodies changed a number of things with the stated goal of speeding up play, this wasn't the only one. Reducing the search time to 3 minutes, authorizing a competition with a maximum hole score, the model local rule for an alternate to stroke and distance, and specific language encouraging ready golf were all aimed at improving pace of play. I agree with most others, I'm not crazy about the change to the flagstick rule, and I'm doubtful that it will actually speed things up. On the other hand, it isn't as if this change has overturned centuries of tradition, the penalty for hitting the flagstick (in stroke play) only came into effect in 1968.

The role against striking the flagstick only allowed it from '56 to '68. Before '56 it was a penalty as well.

 

Interesting reading here:

 

https://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/a-brief-history-1744-to-present.html

[pinhigh27]

Whether or not it speeds play will probably depend on how many beers have been consumed and how much sh*t we want to give to the guy who's the oddball.

 

Thanks for describing the adversarial situations that I foresee with this. Just as I said. Most assume it's a new rule to keep it in. Not a choice as to in or out.

 

adversarial? it's golf... jesus.

[sthompson42]

Played yesterday with my normal group. I suggested we leave the flag in. We ended up leaving it in mostly, even on short putts. Putting overall was better especially on the 6-10 footers for all. Could be conicidence. No one tried to ram it in using the pole. When we all kept the flag in, I would say it did speed up play. But I agree, if you have a group that is more particular for flag in or out for chips, long versus short putts, etc. it will increase the time to play. The few times someone wanted it out on a putt, we all just left it out for the rest of the putts. If you can find that kind of common ground, it’s workable.

 

My buddy did seem to enjoy yanking the flag out to pop the balls out until I told him to stop. Getting your ball out with the flag in did take care in certain positions or your hand can bruise the lip of the cup. That’s a downside.

 

But overall, play sped up when we could putt from long distances without waiting to pull the flag and when we left the flag out once it gets pulled.

 

Seems resonable to me but I know there will be groups where the flag goes in and out and back in again. It’s the players option 100% but that would be annoying to me.

[fairways4life]

I'm wondering if any outings or more casual tournaments like charity events will mandate that all flags be left in at all times to try to improve pace of play. Kind of like having a triple bogey max rule. I wouldn't be surprised.

[PingEye2]

Heard someone mention this and maybe it would encourage people to leave the flag in, at least older players...build the flags like those on the practice green so that they can be used to retrieve the ball from the cup. Downside would be those who do remove it that piece on the flagstick could cause green damage, especially if just dropped

[bladehunter]

Whether or not it speeds play will probably depend on how many beers have been consumed and how much sh*t we want to give to the guy who's the oddball.

 

Thanks for describing the adversarial situations that I foresee with this. Just as I said. Most assume it's a new rule to keep it in. Not a choice as to in or out.

 

adversarial? it's golf... jesus.

 

Golf Jesus ? You mean Tommy tu-tone Fleetwood ??!

 

 

 

And yes. If a bunch of asshats decide to “ ride” a guy in the group because he prefers the pin out. That becomes adversarial quick. Both choices are now valid. Can’t act like out isn’t ok now.

[fairways4life]

I think it's a little silly to introduce this as an option as the time saved vs. time lost is probably a wash at best (as many others have already stated).

 

But I guess my one defense of the rule is that under the old rules, you were sort of screwed while playing as a single. You have a long putt and if you take the pin out, you can't see the hole well enough. But there's nobody playing with you to attend the flag for you. So, according to the rule book, what do you do? Either pull it and not have a good view of the hole or leave it in and risk a penalty. So at least this eliminates that scenario.

[ThinkingPlus]

I think it's a little silly to introduce this as an option as the time saved vs. time lost is probably a wash at best (as many others have already stated).

 

But I guess my one defense of the rule is that under the old rules, you were sort of screwed while playing as a single. You have a long putt and if you take the pin out, you can't see the hole well enough. But there's nobody playing with you to attend the flag for you. So, according to the rule book, what do you do? Either pull it and not have a good view of the hole or leave it in and risk a penalty. So at least this eliminates that scenario.

Singles have no penalties unless they just want one for grins and chuckles. Singles can't post anyway so single rounds are "practice" by definition. At least this is my understanding, albeit I am not an expert on the rules by any means.

[jasonfish11]

What will be funny is to watch people pull the pin 4 times to get the balls out of the hole. Which I’m sure will make the game faster and faster. Lol.

 

Something I just thought of, how many times will you be in the FW waiting and see the flag go into the hole. You then start your practice swings and look up to find that the group is still on the green putting. haha

 

Personally I'm going to putt with the flag in the hole, but I don't like the rule change.

[fairways4life]

I think it's a little silly to introduce this as an option as the time saved vs. time lost is probably a wash at best (as many others have already stated).

 

But I guess my one defense of the rule is that under the old rules, you were sort of screwed while playing as a single. You have a long putt and if you take the pin out, you can't see the hole well enough. But there's nobody playing with you to attend the flag for you. So, according to the rule book, what do you do? Either pull it and not have a good view of the hole or leave it in and risk a penalty. So at least this eliminates that scenario.

Singles have no penalties unless they just want one for grins and chuckles. Singles can't post anyway so single rounds are "practice" by definition. At least this is my understanding, albeit I am not an expert on the rules by any means.

 

Good point. That was another rule change introduced in 2016. Possibly the silliest of them all in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there lol.

[ThinkingPlus]

I think it's a little silly to introduce this as an option as the time saved vs. time lost is probably a wash at best (as many others have already stated).

 

But I guess my one defense of the rule is that under the old rules, you were sort of screwed while playing as a single. You have a long putt and if you take the pin out, you can't see the hole well enough. But there's nobody playing with you to attend the flag for you. So, according to the rule book, what do you do? Either pull it and not have a good view of the hole or leave it in and risk a penalty. So at least this eliminates that scenario.

Singles have no penalties unless they just want one for grins and chuckles. Singles can't post anyway so single rounds are "practice" by definition. At least this is my understanding, albeit I am not an expert on the rules by any means.

 

Good point. That was another rule change introduced in 2016. Possibly the silliest of them all in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there lol.

Trying to address sandbagging...RBs tilting at windmills.

[fairways4life]

I think it's a little silly to introduce this as an option as the time saved vs. time lost is probably a wash at best (as many others have already stated).

 

But I guess my one defense of the rule is that under the old rules, you were sort of screwed while playing as a single. You have a long putt and if you take the pin out, you can't see the hole well enough. But there's nobody playing with you to attend the flag for you. So, according to the rule book, what do you do? Either pull it and not have a good view of the hole or leave it in and risk a penalty. So at least this eliminates that scenario.

Singles have no penalties unless they just want one for grins and chuckles. Singles can't post anyway so single rounds are "practice" by definition. At least this is my understanding, albeit I am not an expert on the rules by any means.

 

Good point. That was another rule change introduced in 2016. Possibly the silliest of them all in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there lol.

Trying to address sandbagging...RBs tilting at windmills.

 

Oh I totally get the reasoning behind it. But it's flawed on many levels. But ... in an effort to not hijack the thread, I'll leave it at that lol.

 

Bryson is paired with DJ for tomorrow. Should be interesting to see how this dynamic plays out on the greens between DJ's caddie and Bryson's.

[jasonfish11]

 

 

Bryson is paired with DJ for tomorrow. Should be interesting to see how this dynamic plays out on the greens between DJ's caddie and Bryson's.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are a week early.

[jasonfish11]

Bryson is paired with DJ for tomorrow. Should be interesting to see how this dynamic plays out on the greens between DJ's caddie and Bryson's.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are a week early.

 

Nevermind, woo hoo golf is back.

[Shilgy]

Bryson is paired with DJ for tomorrow. Should be interesting to see how this dynamic plays out on the greens between DJ's caddie and Bryson's.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are a week early.

??? The tourney starts tomorrow. Bryson and DJ are paired in the last group https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/sentry-tournament-of-champions/tee-times.html

[fairways4life]

Bryson is paired with DJ for tomorrow. Should be interesting to see how this dynamic plays out on the greens between DJ's caddie and Bryson's.

 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are a week early.

 

Lol. Foot, meet mouth.

[BMC]

Another wrinkle of the flag in scenario -

 

What happens when the shadow of the flagstick perfectly lines your putt up?

 

Or, when the shadow of the flag flapping in the wind is directly over your ball or line?

[PingEye2]

Another wrinkle of the flag in scenario -

 

What happens when the shadow of the flagstick perfectly lines your putt up?

 

Or, when the shadow of the flag flapping in the wind is directly over your ball or line?

 

You’d take it out if you feel it’s distracting... you can change IN vs OUT each hole... or each putt