Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

[PingEye2]

Bryson led the field in Strokes Gained: Putting at +3.868 with mostly leaving the flag in. I didn’t watch the entire round but the only times I saw him with it out was very short putts where DJ already had removed it.

[fairways4life]

Bryson led the field in Strokes Gained: Putting at +3.868 with mostly leaving the flag in. I didn’t watch the entire round but the only times I saw him with it out was very short putts where DJ already had removed it.

 

It was 18 holes with 33 players. And as you mentioned, he didn't even use the pin all the time anyway. Let's not get carried away suggesting that this is some sort of a game-changer until there's a larger sample size.

[TheCityGame]

Bryson's round is but one data point, but y'all need to admit it's pretty funny that the very first round of the season, the one guy who is famously leaving it in led the field in SG: Putting.

 

He seemed to actually have it in and out willy-nilly and all the putts he hit that went in with the stick in looked like they would have gone in with the stick out, except POSSIBLY for one putt that he hit pretty hard and you could see the ball deflect sideways off the stick, but then just die into the hole.

[PingEye2]

Bryson led the field in Strokes Gained: Putting at +3.868 with mostly leaving the flag in. I didn’t watch the entire round but the only times I saw him with it out was very short putts where DJ already had removed it.

 

It was 18 holes with 33 players. And as you mentioned, he didn't even use the pin all the time anyway. Let's not get carried away suggesting that this is some sort of a game-changer until there's a larger sample size.

 

Of course, it’s only interesting observation at this point. It will take months to have statistically relevant data.

[fairways4life]

Has anyone else been putting with it in besides Bryson? Or is he the lone soldier out there so far? I only got to watch a little bit of the broadcast last night and didn't see anyone else but him do it.

[PingEye2]

Has anyone else been putting with it in besides Bryson? Or is he the lone soldier out there so far? I only got to watch a little bit of the broadcast last night and didn't see anyone else but him do it.

 

He is the only one I saw. And he hit some 2-3 footers with it out, but I think that was more related to DJ already having it out and not wanting to worry about putting it back for a shorty

[TheCityGame]

Has anyone else been putting with it in besides Bryson? Or is he the lone soldier out there so far? I only got to watch a little bit of the broadcast last night and didn't see anyone else but him do it.

there were a couple tap ins where guys left it in, but almost everyone had it out for everything.

[bladehunter]

You guys really calling every player on tour besides Bryson “ idiots “?

[Hawkeye77]

Whether or not it speeds play will probably depend on how many beers have been consumed and how much sh*t we want to give to the guy who's the oddball.

 

Thanks for describing the adversarial situations that I foresee with this. Just as I said. Most assume it's a new rule to keep it in. Not a choice as to in or out.

 

adversarial? it's golf... jesus.

 

You will get crucified for leaving it in.

Not with the guys I play with regularly. We're all trying to win a dollar, and will do anything within the rules to gain a small edge. I'm comfortable believing that the flagstick can provide a slight advantage.

 

I was just poking the guy invoking you know who. ;-)

[Hawkeye77]

Is there anything other than this?

 

1. It was enacted with slow play in mind (and not related to statistics making the game easier) and with little or possibly the opposite effect where slow play is concerned, and

2. It makes the game easier.

 

The game does not need to be easier and certainly not for tour pros.

 

Change the rule back ASAP.

[nsxguy]

You guys really calling every player on tour besides Bryson " idiots "?

 

Exaggeration much ?

[Mikey5e]

And here I thought we were talking about the actual rules of golf. My apologies.

 

The rules will never speed up play. Slow wakes up slow and goes to bed slow. They eat slow. They think slow. Prodding is the only way.

True. The only way to speed them up is to enforce some penalty, or similar on them. Rangers are becoming a thing of the past these days, at least the ones who enforce pace of play.

[nsxguy]

Is there anything other than this?

 

1. It was enacted with slow play in mind (and not related to statistics making the game easier) and with little or possibly the opposite effect where slow play is concerned, and

2. It makes the game easier.

 

The game does not need to be easier and certainly not for tour pros.

 

Change the rule back ASAP.

 

I suggest it does not "make the game easier", at least not in any significant (OR prove-able) way.

 

I played my first round of '19 yesterday. IMO it definitely saves time and once everybody gets used to it, it should become clear, even if not everybody realizes it.

[bladehunter]

Nsxguy-

 

“Exactly, the object is to shoot the lowest score. If there is evidence that it helps (and I believe there will be proof of that) you’d be an idiot to not want it in. And an idiot not to put it back in if someone had already removed it.”

 

 

Go back about 14 or so posts. Not an exaggeration. Was actually said.

[PingEye2]

Nsxguy-

 

“Exactly, the object is to shoot the lowest score. If there is evidence that it helps (and I believe there will be proof of that) you’d be an idiot to not want it in. And an idiot not to put it back in if someone had already removed it.”

 

 

Go back about 14 or so posts. Not an exaggeration. Was actually said.

 

Yes, I said it. Do you have a problem with that post? I am referring to competitive golf, by the way.

[getitdaily]

Flagstick rule is cool. I had a few times today where I was first to putt. I left the stick in twice because I was ready and no one pulled it yet. Made one of the putts.

 

I'll leave it in for pace of place perspectives and may leave it in for longer putts.

[bladehunter]

Nsxguy-

 

“Exactly, the object is to shoot the lowest score. If there is evidence that it helps (and I believe there will be proof of that) you’d be an idiot to not want it in. And an idiot not to put it back in if someone had already removed it.”

 

 

Go back about 14 or so posts. Not an exaggeration. Was actually said.

 

Yes, I said it. Do you have a problem with that post? I am referring to competitive golf, by the way.

 

Lol. No I don’t have a problem with you having your opinion. That’s what makes the world go round. Just wanted to point out to the other poster that it was said , and that it wasn’t hyperbole by me. Said and owned. I’m 100 % cool with that. Just wondered who else agreed that Bryson was The only non - idiot on tour?

[Shilgy]

Bryson led the field in Strokes Gained: Putting at +3.868 with mostly leaving the flag in. I didn’t watch the entire round but the only times I saw him with it out was very short putts where DJ already had removed it.

 

It was 18 holes with 33 players. And as you mentioned, he didn't even use the pin all the time anyway. Let's not get carried away suggesting that this is some sort of a game-changer until there's a larger sample size.

Considering how SG works and the fact that the 33 were all winners last year his SG number with likely have been slightly bigger versus a full field.

 

Edited to add: Bryson is -0.8 today. Does that mean I should pull the pin? :)

[getitdaily]

Something I noticed about longer putts leaving the pin in...speed control seemed to be much better than putts where it was out.

[nsxguy]

Bryson led the field in Strokes Gained: Putting at +3.868 with mostly leaving the flag in. I didn’t watch the entire round but the only times I saw him with it out was very short putts where DJ already had removed it.

 

So this is the "proof" that the flagstick helps ?

 

The question is "Did the flagstick help keep a putt IN that otherwise would have missed. I watched some of the tournament and saw Bryson hole some of those putts and the flagstick made NO difference on the ones I saw - they all basically just fell over the lip.

 

I doubt you're EVER going to have proof one way or the other. The USGA, R&A and I expect other organizations spent 7 YEARS developing these new Rules. Do you think with all their research, you or I know better ? Unlikely.

 

While I've done some of my own testing as, I'm sure, others have done, I'm not positive one way or the other but i would agree with those who say it's more likely to help you than hurt you. Unfortunately that is not "proof".

 

I mentioned noticing some putts hitting the flag on the low side that the flagstick seemed to kick OUT. I've also seen some putts spin out of the hole with the flagstick leaning a bit backwards. Of course had I hit the high side of the flagstick there is a likelihood, but not a certainty that the same flagstick would've helped it (stay) in.

 

Net-net, IMO, there won't ever be any conclusive evidence either way.

[nsxguy]

Nsxguy-

 

"Exactly, the object is to shoot the lowest score. If there is evidence that it helps (and I believe there will be proof of that) you'd be an idiot to not want it in. And an idiot not to put it back in if someone had already removed it."

 

 

Go back about 14 or so posts. Not an exaggeration. Was actually said.

 

I did a "search on page" for the word "idiot" and didn't find it - it was on the previous page. LOL

 

Nevertheless, the guy said "IF" and there won't BE any proof IMO. And even IF he was right about the flagstick helping there are other factors to consider, especially at the Tour level.

 

If they're extremely uncomfortable hitting the flagstick, especially early on, that would be a negative, not a positive. Nobody needs negative thoughts. Now, once they get used to it, IF they get used to it, and IF they believed it would help, you'll see more and more of them leaving it in.

[PingEye2]

Nsxguy-

 

Exactly, the object is to shoot the lowest score. If there is evidence that it helps (and I believe there will be proof of that) youd be an idiot to not want it in. And an idiot not to put it back in if someone had already removed it.

 

 

Go back about 14 or so posts. Not an exaggeration. Was actually said.

 

Yes, I said it. Do you have a problem with that post? I am referring to competitive golf, by the way.

 

Lol. No I dont have a problem with you having your opinion. Thats what makes the world go round. Just wanted to point out to the other poster that it was said , and that it wasnt hyperbole by me. Said and owned. Im 100 % cool with that. Just wondered who else agreed that Bryson was The only non - idiot on tour?

 

No, because it hasn’t been proven to help. If, in a year, there is plenty of evidence that it’s better to leave it in then the ones that don’t will be “idiots”. If, on the other hand, it’s been proven to hurt the opposite will be true.

 

[PingEye2]

Bryson led the field in Strokes Gained: Putting at +3.868 with mostly leaving the flag in. I didn’t watch the entire round but the only times I saw him with it out was very short putts where DJ already had removed it.

 

So this is the "proof" that the flagstick helps ?

 

The question is "Did the flagstick help keep a putt IN that otherwise would have missed. I watched some of the tournament and saw Bryson hbole some of those putts and the flagstick made NO difference on the ones I saw - they all basically just fell over the lip.

 

I doubt you're EVER going to have proof one way or the other. The USGA, R&A and I expect other organizations spent 7 YEARS developing these new Rules. Do you think with all their research, you or I know better ? Unlikely.

 

While I've done some of my own testing as, I'm sure, others have done, I'm not positive one way or the other but i would agree with those who say it's more likely to help you than hurt you. Unfortunately that is not "proof".

 

I mentioned noticing some putts hitting the flag on the low side that the flagstick seemed to kick OUT. I've also seen some putts spin out of the hole with the flagstick leaning a bit backwards. Of course had I hit the high side of the flagstick there is a likelihood, but not a certainty that the same flagstick would've helped it (stay) in.

 

Net-net, IMO, there won't ever be any conclusive evidence either way.

 

Obviously, there is currently no proof either way. And there won’t be until thousands of putts have been holed. And if there are only a few players who leave it in there really won’t be proof then.

[Matt J]

I think the powers that be felt that it would be utilized in a reasonable manner, i.e. free up a guy from having to tend and/or replace the flag for guys on and off the green who can't see the hole well. I don't think they considered how superstitious some club players can be.

 

Bryson seems to be reasonable about not having to have it replaced. Many won't be as reasonable. Surely we wouldn't choose to play with those guys but if you're paired with them without choice it will be frustrating.

[bladehunter]

Nsxguy-

 

“Exactly, the object is to shoot the lowest score. If there is evidence that it helps (and I believe there will be proof of that) you’d be an idiot to not want it in. And an idiot not to put it back in if someone had already removed it.”

 

 

Go back about 14 or so posts. Not an exaggeration. Was actually said.

 

Yes, I said it. Do you have a problem with that post? I am referring to competitive golf, by the way.

 

Lol. No I don’t have a problem with you having your opinion. That’s what makes the world go round. Just wanted to point out to the other poster that it was said , and that it wasn’t hyperbole by me. Said and owned. I’m 100 % cool with that. Just wondered who else agreed that Bryson was The only non - idiot on tour?

 

No, because it hasn’t been proven to help. If, in a year, there is plenty of evidence that it’s better to leave it in then the ones that don’t will be “idiots”. If, on the other hand, it’s been proven to hurt the opposite will be true.

 

Gotcha. I suppose that makes more sense. I speak in absolutes a lot too ( trying to cut down ). So I’m not really judging. Just questioning.

 

We shall see how it shakes out.

[llewol007]

Please do give the physics lesson Mr wizard.

 

 

Hit it 10 ft by dead center and it will hit the back and pop over or spit back out at you. If you hit it on the lip it will power off in the opposite direction. But there's a chance of hitting it slightly off center and it staying in.

 

Now add a flagstick there. It has almost zero shot at going in. If it hits the pin its coming out. Maybe won't go by as far. But thats a poor lag putt strategy.

 

I'm telling you that no good player who's learned this game flag out is going to rewire his brain to putt flag in. Might as wel get used to putting your own pin back in. Because most arent going to do it for you.

 

Not sure if you actually play golf. This is extremely simple

The concept of a lag putt is to get the ball close to the hole and not to hole out. Now yes there is a chance the ball will also happen to be knocked in which is a plus. To say there is zero chance of it going with a flag stick there is not 100% accurate. Yes it can happen but you forget as well that the flag stick is in the middle of the hole so there is still room for a ball to drop in the hole. My friend and I attempted to leave the flag in the hole during our round and to say that it helps one way or the other is about 60/40 to the benefit of having a better perception of how far the hole is. It was definitely a plus on longer putts. For the close putts, I did feel as if I had to Harvey Pennick the putt. My buddy on the other hand loves to hit the back of the cup every single time and on 2 occasion did his ball slightly miss the middle of the flag stick and sure enough he was rejected. In any case, I think the rules committee wants to speed up play which makes a lot of sense. Unless we play in tournaments a lot and are followed by rules judges, do we really have to worry.

[A.Princey]

Well, if history holds true, the USGA will continue to watch Bryson like a hawk and any statistical advantage he is scheming to obtain will soon be rectified. Putting with the flagstick in may be a short-lived "experiment".

[nsxguy]

Well, if history holds true, the USGA will continue to watch Bryson like a hawk and any statistical advantage he is scheming to obtain will soon be rectified. Putting with the flagstick in may be a short-lived "experiment".

 

If history holds true ?

 

60+(?) years ago they changed the rule so that you could leave the pin IN and after a dozen years changed it back to having to pull it.

 

Now they've decided to allow it to be left in again.

 

Don't you think the USGA and R&A would look pretty silly if, after they did all this research, they changed their minds after a month or 2 ? A year or 2 ?

 

I'd suggest not holding one's breath.

[A.Princey]

Just wait for Bryson to win a major, heck any tournament early on this calendar year, and tell me the USGA/R&A aren't going to be "re-visiting" their initial call on this one. I think they'd look pretty silly if he is clearly getting an advantage, as it seems they're rather quick to shutdown anything controversial about deShampoo, especially on the putting greens.

[getitdaily]

Just wait for Bryson to win a major, heck any tournament early on this calendar year, and tell me the USGA/R&A aren't going to be "re-visiting" their initial call on this one. I think they'd look pretty silly if he is clearly getting an advantage, as it seems they're rather quick to shutdown anything controversial about deShampoo, especially on the putting greens.

 

How would it be an advantage? Anyone on tour can leave it in...