Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

[Shilgy]

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

 

I think what you mean is that it's impossible to guarantee a specific result on 1 individual roll of the ball. It is 100% possible to quantify the likelihood of a pin improving a specific put though. That is the entire point of the "statistics" branch of mathematics.

 

I personally have not done the math, but I'm pretty sure it will be available soon as someone is doing it and what it will likely say is something along the lines of "through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can say with a 95% certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out." Or it will say ""through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can not say with any level of certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out."

 

So being able to quantify the potential benefit of a flag stick being in or out is absolutely possible, unless you just disagree with statistics as a branch of math/science and think all statistics are complete poppycock. If that is the case then I will not be arguing with you, because it would be more worth my time to bang my head against a wall.

 

The fun thing is I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said they can guarantee 1 specific putt would be helped by the flag stick being in. Everyone I know keeps saying they believe that more often than not the flag stick will help any given putt.

I am comfortable with what I wrote. Perhaps I am wrong but I will stick with it. What flagstick are you using? Will that give me any useful information if my course uses a different material flagstick? Is the ball hitting dead center or glancing off the pin? How fast is it going. Without being to absolutely quantify those criteria how is the information useful?

 

I doubt there are too many manufacturers of different flags. I have seen basically 2 types of flags in my golfing career, although I don't normally pay too much attention. That being said it would take 1-2 hours tops to gather the information you need at your specific course. Just get a hot wheels track, and a board that is 12" high so it's a standard roll. Set it up about 2' from the flag so that the ball is rolling pretty fast when it hits the hole. Then roll 100-200 balls into the hole area with both the flagstick in and out. Measure remaining distance to the hole after each ball. If you follow this data collection plan I can do the analysis after.

 

Do both of these tests with the flag stick in & out. So a total of 200 balls rolled. It would be better if you could do 100, 100, and 100 for a total of 600 balls rolled, but that might take 3 hours.

50 balls dead center

25 balls uphill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the right center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

25 balls downhill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the left center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

 

Then send it to me I'm a stats nerd and can drop it into minitab and do the regression analysis for you if you want.

What if I do not have speed control issues on my putts? You seem to want to go only by the "putt hit too hard" information. What about the "proper speed" information? Will a putt hit at proper speed be aided by the pin? Or will it harm its chances of dropping? What about the assertion by quite a few posts that mentally the hole seems larger without the pin?

There is much more to know than simply the "hit too hard" statistics.

[LeoLeo99]

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

 

I think what you mean is that it's impossible to guarantee a specific result on 1 individual roll of the ball. It is 100% possible to quantify the likelihood of a pin improving a specific put though. That is the entire point of the "statistics" branch of mathematics.

 

I personally have not done the math, but I'm pretty sure it will be available soon as someone is doing it and what it will likely say is something along the lines of "through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can say with a 95% certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out." Or it will say ""through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can not say with any level of certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out."

 

So being able to quantify the potential benefit of a flag stick being in or out is absolutely possible, unless you just disagree with statistics as a branch of math/science and think all statistics are complete poppycock. If that is the case then I will not be arguing with you, because it would be more worth my time to bang my head against a wall.

 

The fun thing is I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said they can guarantee 1 specific putt would be helped by the flag stick being in. Everyone I know keeps saying they believe that more often than not the flag stick will help any given putt.

I am comfortable with what I wrote. Perhaps I am wrong but I will stick with it. What flagstick are you using? Will that give me any useful information if my course uses a different material flagstick? Is the ball hitting dead center or glancing off the pin? How fast is it going. Without being to absolutely quantify those criteria how is the information useful?

 

I doubt there are too many manufacturers of different flags. I have seen basically 2 types of flags in my golfing career, although I don't normally pay too much attention. That being said it would take 1-2 hours tops to gather the information you need at your specific course. Just get a hot wheels track, and a board that is 12" high so it's a standard roll. Set it up about 2' from the flag so that the ball is rolling pretty fast when it hits the hole. Then roll 100-200 balls into the hole area with both the flagstick in and out. Measure remaining distance to the hole after each ball. If you follow this data collection plan I can do the analysis after.

 

Do both of these tests with the flag stick in & out. So a total of 200 balls rolled. It would be better if you could do 100, 100, and 100 for a total of 600 balls rolled, but that might take 3 hours.

50 balls dead center

25 balls uphill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the right center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

25 balls downhill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the left center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

 

Then send it to me I'm a stats nerd and can drop it into minitab and do the regression analysis for you if you want.

What if I do not have speed control issues on my putts? You seem to want to go only by the "putt hit too hard" information. What about the "proper speed" information? Will a putt hit at proper speed be aided by the pin? Or will it harm its chances of dropping? What about the assertion by quite a few posts that mentally the hole seems larger without the pin?

There is much more to know than simply the "hit too hard" statistics.

 

That's all Pelz did in his infamous study.

[davep043]

]What if I do not have speed control issues on my putts? You seem to want to go only by the "putt hit too hard" information. What about the "proper speed" information? Will a putt hit at proper speed be aided by the pin? Or will it harm its chances of dropping? What about the assertion by quite a few posts that mentally the hole seems larger without the pin?

There is much more to know than simply the "hit too hard" statistics.

From a long distance, everyone has speed control issues, even the very best putters, its simply normal variability increasing with increased distance. But I do agree, any study should evaluate putts of different speeds. For a putt with proper speed, will the presence of the flag increase or decrease my make percentage? For "too fast" putts, the issue isn't make v. miss, its how far away do I end up.

As for individual perception issues, whether the flagstick provides a comforting backstop look, or it makes the hole look smaller, that's something an empirical study can't address. I'd hope that if I accept the results of a proper statistical study, that I can train myself to do the smart thing, even if it looks wrong at first.

[Shilgy]

]What if I do not have speed control issues on my putts? You seem to want to go only by the "putt hit too hard" information. What about the "proper speed" information? Will a putt hit at proper speed be aided by the pin? Or will it harm its chances of dropping? What about the assertion by quite a few posts that mentally the hole seems larger without the pin?

There is much more to know than simply the "hit too hard" statistics.

From a long distance, everyone has speed control issues, even the very best putters, its simply normal variability increasing with increased distance. But I do agree, any study should evaluate putts of different speeds. For a putt with proper speed, will the presence of the flag increase or decrease my make percentage? For "too fast" putts, the issue isn't make v. miss, its how far away do I end up.

As for individual perception issues, whether the flagstick provides a comforting backstop look, or it makes the hole look smaller, that's something an empirical study can't address. I'd hope that if I accept the results of a proper statistical study, that I can train myself to do the smart thing, even if it looks wrong at first.

For me-and others I am quite certain as we have discussed it-there is a bit of "old guy syndrome" at play. :) It looks wrong so will affect how we putt. And our selective memory will dwell more on the putts that were rejected by the pin and should have dropped than on those that were aided. The flag in could also create more three putts as many posts have said they will putt a bit more aggressively but if the pin is missed it creates a longer comeback putt. I will likely leave it in to speed up play on putts outside 30-40 feet or perhaps on putts that are quickly downhill after the cup. Anything inside that the flag will be out.

[GSDriver]

It'll be nice to be able to leave in simply for visibility on long putts across multiple tiers, though we'll likely pull it out once everyone can see the hole easily.

[jasonfish11]

 

What if I do not have speed control issues on my putts? You seem to want to go only by the "putt hit too hard" information. What about the "proper speed" information? Will a putt hit at proper speed be aided by the pin? Or will it harm its chances of dropping? What about the assertion by quite a few posts that mentally the hole seems larger without the pin?

There is much more to know than simply the "hit too hard" statistics.

 

Again it's a simple test, just change the height of the block under the hot wheels track to where it gives you the right speed then repeat the test above.

[bladehunter]

More than any of the comments on how the ball will react, the biggest benefit will be how your brain reacts. You've not got an honest target right in the middle of the hole. Human nature is to aim at things. And many many people burn edges all day long, why? Because they aim at the edges of the hole. Our course went to 8 in holes for a week after punching and sanding, and after the honeymoon period of holing everything, many of my friends went back to burning the edges of the 8 in hole...

 

This. This is why it’s wrong. I’ve tested it too. And you make more short putts. Why ? You can just aim at the pin and bang them in. In my lifetime this game will die I fear. Once it’s teeth are pulled it will be impossible to bring back to life. It’s being softened to appease mediocrity.

[jasonfish11]

In my lifetime this game will die I fear. Once it's teeth are pulled it will be impossible to bring back to life. It's being softened to appease mediocrity.

 

This is my biggest complaint about the new rules. I don't feel the rules actually changed the problems (pace of play) substantially. It just made the game easier which to me isn't what the goal should have been. That being said if the rules are gonna make things easier, I'm going to use them.

[hybrid25]

I predict most of the new rules will be rescinded in a few years or there will be straight up bifurcation. The 2018 rules for professional and high level amateurs and the 2019 rules for the rest of us.

 

I predict in four more years you'll still not have the foggiest idea how the Rules work. :swoon:

 

After years of you ridiculing folks like me who said the rules for OB and lost ball requiring stroke and distance were overly penal....well, here we are. Hit a ball OB or lose it and now you can just drop a ball, take some penalty strokes and get on with it. Just like folks like me have asking for. It's a sad day for you when people like me get their way with the rules. But sometimes common sense wins.

 

Nor will you have a clue as to how the Rules are made and updated . . . still, willful ignorance can be comforting to some.

the folks that are so strict with rules probably never play for a livelihood. And at the end of the day as time moves on in their lives they get to the point that they realize how insignificant it was to be so dogmatic about certain rules. It's just a game of golf! I personally think and out of bounds shot should be take a stroke where it went out of bounds and play on and help move the game along like so many want to do.

[davep043]

I predict most of the new rules will be rescinded in a few years or there will be straight up bifurcation. The 2018 rules for professional and high level amateurs and the 2019 rules for the rest of us.

 

I predict in four more years you'll still not have the foggiest idea how the Rules work. :swoon:

 

After years of you ridiculing folks like me who said the rules for OB and lost ball requiring stroke and distance were overly penal....well, here we are. Hit a ball OB or lose it and now you can just drop a ball, take some penalty strokes and get on with it. Just like folks like me have asking for. It's a sad day for you when people like me get their way with the rules. But sometimes common sense wins.

 

Nor will you have a clue as to how the Rules are made and updated . . . still, willful ignorance can be comforting to some.

the folks that are so strict with rules probably never play for a livelihood. And at the end of the day as time moves on in their lives they get to the point that they realize how insignificant it was to be so dogmatic about certain rules. It's just a game of golf! I personally think and out of bounds shot should be take a stroke where it went out of bounds and play on and help move the game along like so many want to do.

That rule may be enacted at your course, except it will be two strokes. But that really has nothing to do with putting, or the flagstick

[Hawkeye77]

More than any of the comments on how the ball will react, the biggest benefit will be how your brain reacts. You've not got an honest target right in the middle of the hole. Human nature is to aim at things. And many many people burn edges all day long, why? Because they aim at the edges of the hole. Our course went to 8 in holes for a week after punching and sanding, and after the honeymoon period of holing everything, many of my friends went back to burning the edges of the 8 in hole...

 

This. This is why it's wrong. I've tested it too. And you make more short putts. Why ? You can just aim at the pin and bang them in. In my lifetime this game will die I fear. Once it's teeth are pulled it will be impossible to bring back to life. It's being softened to appease mediocrity.

 

Yep.

 

Populist solutions for problems that in most cases did not exist - flagstick rule and OB rule change are just plain unnecessary and weren't called for by any issue faced by 90% of the folks out there golfing who aren't caring about them anyway, IMO.

 

It's like, "hey, look we are doing stuff - now we ran with some of the silliest ideas we could find just because, but hey, we are doing stuff!"

 

And on the internet the cries continue for "hitting out of divot scrapes is unfair" and "just make the OB a lateral" - only a matter of time.

[bladehunter]

More than any of the comments on how the ball will react, the biggest benefit will be how your brain reacts. You've not got an honest target right in the middle of the hole. Human nature is to aim at things. And many many people burn edges all day long, why? Because they aim at the edges of the hole. Our course went to 8 in holes for a week after punching and sanding, and after the honeymoon period of holing everything, many of my friends went back to burning the edges of the 8 in hole...

 

This. This is why it's wrong. I've tested it too. And you make more short putts. Why ? You can just aim at the pin and bang them in. In my lifetime this game will die I fear. Once it's teeth are pulled it will be impossible to bring back to life. It's being softened to appease mediocrity.

 

Yep.

 

Populist solutions for problems that in most cases did not exist - flagstick rule and OB rule change are just plain unnecessary and weren't called for by any issue faced by 90% of the folks out there golfing who aren't caring about them anyway, IMO.

 

It's like, "hey, look we are doing stuff - now we ran with some of the silliest ideas we could find just because, but hey, we are doing stuff!"

 

And on the internet the cries continue for "hitting out of divot scrapes is unfair" and "just make the OB a lateral" - only a matter of time.

 

1000%. Just silly stuff. No way on earth this makes things faster. That idea has no choice but to assume 100 % participation in leaving the pin in.

 

It’s exactly like the day metal spikes died and that sound of them on pavement was erased from the game ..... the sound of a holed putt is now “ clank “. A damn crying shame it is. All in the name of laziness.

[nsxguy]

More than any of the comments on how the ball will react, the biggest benefit will be how your brain reacts. You've not got an honest target right in the middle of the hole. Human nature is to aim at things. And many many people burn edges all day long, why? Because they aim at the edges of the hole. Our course went to 8 in holes for a week after punching and sanding, and after the honeymoon period of holing everything, many of my friends went back to burning the edges of the 8 in hole...

 

This. This is why it's wrong. I've tested it too. And you make more short putts. Why ? You can just aim at the pin and bang them in. In my lifetime this game will die I fear. Once it's teeth are pulled it will be impossible to bring back to life. It's being softened to appease mediocrity.

 

Yep.

 

Populist solutions for problems that in most cases did not exist - flagstick rule and OB rule change are just plain unnecessary and weren't called for by any issue faced by 90% of the folks out there golfing who aren't caring about them anyway, IMO.

 

It's like, "hey, look we are doing stuff - now we ran with some of the silliest ideas we could find just because, but hey, we are doing stuff!"

 

And on the internet the cries continue for "hitting out of divot scrapes is unfair" and "just make the OB a lateral" - only a matter of time.

 

1000%. Just silly stuff. No way on earth this makes things faster. That idea has no choice but to assume 100 % participation in leaving the pin in.

 

It's exactly like the day metal spikes died and that sound of them on pavement was erased from the game ..... the sound of a holed putt is now " clank ". A damn crying shame it is. All in the name of laziness.

 

You've been playing for 4 years and you "miss" metal spikes ?!?!?! :cheesy:

[Hawkeye77]

4 years? I'm missing something there.

 

A dew soaked summer morning, the sound of metal spikes and bag chatter are my first memories in golf playing with my dad (his spikes - my sneakers were good enough when I was 10/11).

 

And it's more than just nostalgia with the rules stuff - but they've done it.

 

Hit OB, play from the fairway with no risk of a second OB or even getting behind a tree in play, lol, off the tee - can't keep your ball on the property? Fixed it for you!

[bladehunter]

More than any of the comments on how the ball will react, the biggest benefit will be how your brain reacts. You've not got an honest target right in the middle of the hole. Human nature is to aim at things. And many many people burn edges all day long, why? Because they aim at the edges of the hole. Our course went to 8 in holes for a week after punching and sanding, and after the honeymoon period of holing everything, many of my friends went back to burning the edges of the 8 in hole...

 

This. This is why it's wrong. I've tested it too. And you make more short putts. Why ? You can just aim at the pin and bang them in. In my lifetime this game will die I fear. Once it's teeth are pulled it will be impossible to bring back to life. It's being softened to appease mediocrity.

 

Yep.

 

Populist solutions for problems that in most cases did not exist - flagstick rule and OB rule change are just plain unnecessary and weren't called for by any issue faced by 90% of the folks out there golfing who aren't caring about them anyway, IMO.

 

It's like, "hey, look we are doing stuff - now we ran with some of the silliest ideas we could find just because, but hey, we are doing stuff!"

 

And on the internet the cries continue for "hitting out of divot scrapes is unfair" and "just make the OB a lateral" - only a matter of time.

 

1000%. Just silly stuff. No way on earth this makes things faster. That idea has no choice but to assume 100 % participation in leaving the pin in.

 

It's exactly like the day metal spikes died and that sound of them on pavement was erased from the game ..... the sound of a holed putt is now " clank ". A damn crying shame it is. All in the name of laziness.

 

You've been playing for 4 years and you "miss" metal spikes ?!?!?! :cheesy:

 

I didn’t say I miss it. I just have a overactive imagination. And YouTube. lol.

 

Plus. I did work at a course in the 90s for 4 years. I heard it too come to think of it. But never worn a pair. Sad to say.

 

 

[bladehunter]

4 years? I'm missing something there.

 

A dew soaked summer morning, the sound of metal spikes and bag chatter are my first memories in golf playing with my dad (his spikes - my sneakers were good enough when I was 10/11).

 

And it's more than just nostalgia with the rules stuff - but they've done it.

 

Hit OB, play from the fairway with no risk of a second OB or even getting behind a tree in play, lol, off the tee - can't keep your ball on the property? Fixed it for you!

 

Yes. I recently relayed that I only played this game for 4 years. Some are in shock. Some think I’m full of it and some think I’ve cracked. It’s true though. And yet somehow I feel like I’ve played it for two lifetimes.

[ThinkingPlus]

4 years? I'm missing something there.

 

A dew soaked summer morning, the sound of metal spikes and bag chatter are my first memories in golf playing with my dad (his spikes - my sneakers were good enough when I was 10/11).

 

And it's more than just nostalgia with the rules stuff - but they've done it.

 

Hit OB, play from the fairway with no risk of a second OB or even getting behind a tree in play, lol, off the tee - can't keep your ball on the property? Fixed it for you!

 

Yes. I recently relayed that I only played this game for 4 years. Some are in shock. Some think I'm full of it and some think I've cracked. It's true though. And yet somehow I feel like I've played it for two lifetimes.

I'm going with cracked, but then again I am an optimist so... . :tease:

[pinhigh27]

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

 

I think what you mean is that it's impossible to guarantee a specific result on 1 individual roll of the ball. It is 100% possible to quantify the likelihood of a pin improving a specific put though. That is the entire point of the "statistics" branch of mathematics.

 

I personally have not done the math, but I'm pretty sure it will be available soon as someone is doing it and what it will likely say is something along the lines of "through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can say with a 95% certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out." Or it will say ""through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can not say with any level of certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out."

 

So being able to quantify the potential benefit of a flag stick being in or out is absolutely possible, unless you just disagree with statistics as a branch of math/science and think all statistics are complete poppycock. If that is the case then I will not be arguing with you, because it would be more worth my time to bang my head against a wall.

 

The fun thing is I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said they can guarantee 1 specific putt would be helped by the flag stick being in. Everyone I know keeps saying they believe that more often than not the flag stick will help any given putt.

I am comfortable with what I wrote. Perhaps I am wrong but I will stick with it. What flagstick are you using? Will that give me any useful information if my course uses a different material flagstick? Is the ball hitting dead center or glancing off the pin? How fast is it going. Without being to absolutely quantify those criteria how is the information useful?

 

I doubt there are too many manufacturers of different flags. I have seen basically 2 types of flags in my golfing career, although I don't normally pay too much attention. That being said it would take 1-2 hours tops to gather the information you need at your specific course. Just get a hot wheels track, and a board that is 12" high so it's a standard roll. Set it up about 2' from the flag so that the ball is rolling pretty fast when it hits the hole. Then roll 100-200 balls into the hole area with both the flagstick in and out. Measure remaining distance to the hole after each ball. If you follow this data collection plan I can do the analysis after.

 

Do both of these tests with the flag stick in & out. So a total of 200 balls rolled. It would be better if you could do 100, 100, and 100 for a total of 600 balls rolled, but that might take 3 hours.

50 balls dead center

25 balls uphill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the right center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

25 balls downhill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the left center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

 

Then send it to me I'm a stats nerd and can drop it into minitab and do the regression analysis for you if you want.

What if I do not have speed control issues on my putts? You seem to want to go only by the "putt hit too hard" information. What about the "proper speed" information? Will a putt hit at proper speed be aided by the pin? Or will it harm its chances of dropping? What about the assertion by quite a few posts that mentally the hole seems larger without the pin?

There is much more to know than simply the "hit too hard" statistics.

 

Why would a putt hit at the proper speed be hurt by the pin? For the ball to bounce off the pin out of the hole the ball has to have a ton of excess speed. like 10+ feet by on slow greens and way more than that on fast greens. again assuming flag is straight up .

[Shilgy]

 

Why would a putt hit at the proper speed be hurt by the pin? For the ball to bounce off the pin out of the hole the ball has to have a ton of excess speed. like 10+ feet by on slow greens and way more than that on fast greens. again assuming flag is straight up .

Really? You've never seen a chip hit hit perfect speed glance of the stick? Funky things happen all of the time in this game. It certainly does not need to have a "ton of speed" to glance of the flagstick.

[A.Princey]

If you think leaving the flag in will assist you in making more putts, you're not very good at putting in the first place. Sight of the hole from distance(or playing alone) should be the only exception.

[PingEye2]

If you think leaving the flag in will assist you in making more putts, you're not very good at putting in the first place. Sight of the hole from distance(or playing alone) should be the only exception.

 

Really? Bryson disagrees. John Graham, one of the premier putting instructors in the US, disagrees. They both feel like there is a significant statistical advantage to leaving the pin in. Certainly there will be instances where it hurts, but overall they both feel it’€™s helpful.

By the end of the summer we will probably have solid evidence to either prove, or refute, their theories. In the meantime, I intend to leave it in.

[A.Princey]

The only benefit for the ball entering the hole, would be for shorter length putts, basically drilling them straight into the flag with no break. Can the flag be tended while in to keep straight? If not, it should be fun to watch on windy days how Bryson tries jamming them into the hole with a stiff headwind into the ball. The other side to the wind argument will be him adjusting his feel again to putt with it out.

 

Can you imagine playing Shinnecock last summer using the above mindset, Phil might have had more than one hockey puck moment!?!?

[pinhigh27]

Why would a putt hit at the proper speed be hurt by the pin? For the ball to bounce off the pin out of the hole the ball has to have a ton of excess speed. like 10+ feet by on slow greens and way more than that on fast greens. again assuming flag is straight up .

Really? You've never seen a chip hit hit perfect speed glance of the stick? Funky things happen all of the time in this game. It certainly does not need to have a "ton of speed" to glance of the flagstick.

 

how does that make any sense? if it has perfect speed and the flag is vertical then it's going to fall in and barely even touch the flag until it's below the green. you need a decent amount of kinetic energy, ie speed for it to bounce off the flag.

 

idk why you guys are arguing against literally all the data on this subject as well as the putting experts and tour pros. It helps way more than it hurts for most people. idk what to tell you. idk if you have some abnormal thing where the flag in makes it impossible to aim (which is probably rare IMO) then maybe it's not for you. but from a physics perspective and mental perspective for the vast majority of people it will help.

 

if it didn't help it wouldn't be a big deal.

[A.Princey]

The problem isn't the data, it's the fact that you assume ideal conditions on every putt. Again, play links golf across the pond with the flag in. Let me know how the "data" sits with you after a couple of ricochets. They always say you remember the bad breaks, no matter how well you've played to that point. Like a disease, those misses will fester and you'll be putting with it out soon enough.

 

The other thing to remember, the rule argues it's equally fair both ways, if any advantage actually rears it's head, you can kiss that new ruling goodbye. Hopefully, unlike the shower rod, they'll nip this one as soon as the advantage, if any, is clear.

[A.Princey]

If you think leaving the flag in will assist you in making more putts, you're not very good at putting in the first place. Sight of the hole from distance(or playing alone) should be the only exception.

 

Really? Bryson disagrees. John Graham, one of the premier putting instructors in the US, disagrees. They both feel like there is a significant statistical advantage to leaving the pin in. Certainly there will be instances where it hurts, but overall they both feel itâs helpful.

By the end of the summer we will probably have solid evidence to either prove, or refute, their theories. In the meantime, I intend to leave it in.

Lots of speculation in that argument, words like 'think' and 'feel' don't have me convinced. I need numbers, I tell ya!!!!! In the meantime, ram her home, deShampoo, that backstop's as big as Texas!!!

[TheCityGame]

The only benefit for the ball entering the hole, would be for shorter length putts, basically drilling them straight into the flag with no break. Can the flag be tended while in to keep straight? If not, it should be fun to watch on windy days how Bryson tries jamming them into the hole with a stiff headwind into the ball. The other side to the wind argument will be him adjusting his feel again to putt with it out.

 

Can you imagine playing Shinnecock last summer using the above mindset, Phil might have had more than one hockey puck moment!?!?

the above mindset? You mean the fake one you just made up?

 

you understand that Bryson doesn't have to declare before the round that he just keep the stick in on all putts, right?

 

Like if a headwind is pushing the stick towards him, he can still take it out.

[A.Princey]

I fully understand that, but will he have the composure to play both ways, enough feel to die them into the hole with it out several times a round. It'll be yip-worthy if one's got multiple strategies for 4 footers on US Open greens.

 

Not only that, I can totally see a situation where he's resetting the flag multiple times to get it to "sit" vertical. Heck, I don't even know if this would breach the rule itself. Pace-of-play would really take a hit with a backfire scenario like that.

[sdandrea]

I'm all "in".

[TheCityGame]

I fully understand that, but will he have the composure to play both ways, enough feel to die them into the hole with it out several times a round. It'll be yip-worthy if one's got multiple strategies for a 4 footers on US Open greens.

will a professional golfer have enough composure to putt exactly like he's putted for his entire life? That's what you're asking?

[A.Princey]

No, explain to me a world where hitting anywhere but center of the flag, while having it in, helps. The whole premise of an advantage is that you USE the flag by hitting it upon entry. To hit the flag in that manner would suggest a missed putt that would roll by the hole 3' or more. Center contact with the flag is the only advantage, and this requires a much harder struck putt than "he's been doing all of his life".