Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

[pinhigh27]

The problem isn't the data, it's the fact that you assume ideal conditions on every putt. Again, play links golf across the pond with the flag in. Let me know how the "data" sits with you after a couple of ricochets. They always say you remember the bad breaks, no matter how well you've played to that point. Like a disease, those misses will fester and you'll be putting with it out soon enough.

 

The other thing to remember, the rule argues it's equally fair both ways, if any advantage actually rears it's head, you can kiss that new ruling goodbye. Hopefully, unlike the shower rod, they'll nip this one as soon as the advantage, if any, is clear.

 

What does that mean? How does the ball bouncing affect the benefit of the flag?

 

The rule has nothing to do with it being equally fair. It just means it legal. It's obviously advantageous to drop the ball off the cart path. That doesn't mean it's a neutral rule. And now they are freaking out about the rule, aka they realize it is a benefit.

 

Idk what about this is hard to understand. The goal is to stop the ball in the hole, the flag does that way better than the back edge of the cup does.

 

I have no idea why hitting the center of the flag requires hitting it harder. No, you just literally roll the ball in the middle of the hole. It's completely independent of speed.

[pinhigh27]

if anything I would say the flag would help even more relatively as the greens are in worse shape as you can hit it harder and harder to possibly mitigate effects of the inconsistency and rely on the flag. ie instead of dying a 6 footer in on a bouncy greens you can ram it harder.

[A.Princey]

You obviously don't understand spatial relation of the flag to the entry edge, and the effect of gravity over that course of travel. 40% the time to fall below the cup plane hitting the pin vs twice as much drop over the entire cup diameter with it out.

 

I'm done...

[glk]

Pelz did lots and lots of testing of this years ago. His conclusion - leave it in with just a few special cases to pull it.

 

https://www.golf.com/instruction/flag-or-out

[bladehunter]

Rule sucks. Period. The true question is what purpose does it serve ? Was it designed to make the game easier. Or speed up play ? It will only succeed in one of those.

[A.Princey]

if anything I would say the flag would help even more relatively as the greens are in worse shape as you can hit it harder and harder to possibly mitigate effects of the inconsistency and rely on the flag. ie instead of dying a 6 footer in on a bouncy greens you can ram it harder.

Last thing, you proved my point, they will in fact be hitting it harder for the very reason you mentioned. Now, imagine a round if you will, where they've been ramming putts home on Bermuda greens until hole 16. Here, a strong headwind necessitates the pin be out. I don't think someone who has been jamming them in all day like bank shots will be able to completely flip a switch and use their "normal stroke" under pressure.

 

It'd be like shooting free throws as banks all day long, and suddenly being asked to just clear the rim on the next one. Kind of a tall order when you haven't done it that way all day.

[ThinkingPlus]

The bottom line is until a comprehensive data set is produced which explores the speed regime applicable to putting (1 - 6 feet past approximately) we are stuck with theoretical calculations (with merit, but difficult to include all nuances) and experienced subjective musings. Pelz data is very good for the very poorly struck putts (his chipping study), but does not address the most common putting speeds. Once we have data covering the entire speed regime then the picture will be clear and everyone can make an informed decision. I think it will be a marginal advantage for putts hit very hard to a marginal disadvantage for firmly struck putts and a complete wash for optimal holing speed putts (obviously personal opinion).

[glk]

The bottom line is until a comprehensive data set is produced which explores the speed regime applicable to putting (1 - 6 feet past approximately) we are stuck with theoretical calculations (with merit, but difficult to include all nuances) and experienced subjective musings. Pelz data is very good for the very poorly struck putts (his chipping study), but does not address the most common putting speeds. Once we have data covering the entire speed regime then the picture will be clear and everyone can make an informed decision. I think it will be a marginal advantage for putts hit very hard to a marginal disadvantage for firmly struck putts and a complete wash for optimal holing speed putts (obviously personal opinion).

Pelz tested it via the tru roller he didn’t hit chips. And he had a player putt too. He varied the speed to where he rolled it 3,6,9 feet past the hole.

[ThinkingPlus]

The bottom line is until a comprehensive data set is produced which explores the speed regime applicable to putting (1 - 6 feet past approximately) we are stuck with theoretical calculations (with merit, but difficult to include all nuances) and experienced subjective musings. Pelz data is very good for the very poorly struck putts (his chipping study), but does not address the most common putting speeds. Once we have data covering the entire speed regime then the picture will be clear and everyone can make an informed decision. I think it will be a marginal advantage for putts hit very hard to a marginal disadvantage for firmly struck putts and a complete wash for optimal holing speed putts (obviously personal opinion).

Pelz tested it via the tru roller he didn't hit chips. And he had a player putt too. He varied the speed to where he rolled it 3,6,9 feet past the hole.

Yes. I am very aware of Pelz data. He was simulating chipping speeds. There was little to no advantage at 3'. He began seeing more advantage at 6' and 9' showed the biggest advantage. Nothing really beyond 6' is applicable to putting unless someone is incompetent (the percentage of putts missing by more than 6' will be less than 1% even for poor putters).

[pinhigh27]

if anything I would say the flag would help even more relatively as the greens are in worse shape as you can hit it harder and harder to possibly mitigate effects of the inconsistency and rely on the flag. ie instead of dying a 6 footer in on a bouncy greens you can ram it harder.

Last thing, you proved my point, they will in fact be hitting it harder for the very reason you mentioned. Now, imagine a round if you will, where they've been ramming putts home on Bermuda greens until hole 16. Here, a strong headwind necessitates the pin be out. I don't think someone who has been jamming them in all day like bank shots will be able to completely flip a switch and use their "normal stroke" under pressure.

 

It'd be like shooting free throws as banks all day long, and suddenly being asked to just clear the rim on the next one. Kind of a tall order when you haven't done it that way all day.

 

I said you could. Not that you have to. You were the one who brought up uneven surfaces. I told you I think it could possibly help more there

[Shilgy]

if anything I would say the flag would help even more relatively as the greens are in worse shape as you can hit it harder and harder to possibly mitigate effects of the inconsistency and rely on the flag. ie instead of dying a 6 footer in on a bouncy greens you can ram it harder.

Ram it harder and harder, miss the pin and leave a 5 footer coming back?

[pinhigh27]

if anything I would say the flag would help even more relatively as the greens are in worse shape as you can hit it harder and harder to possibly mitigate effects of the inconsistency and rely on the flag. ie instead of dying a 6 footer in on a bouncy greens you can ram it harder.

Ram it harder and harder, miss the pin and leave a 5 footer coming back?

 

Entirely possible. Like I said it's up to the player.

[pinhigh27]

I don't think anyone has claimed it will always help you. There are definitely outliers and rare occasions where it will hurt you, such as if the pin is at a severe angle. However it would help you more often than it will hurt you. The vast majority of the time the outcome will probably be the same regardless of pin in or out. However I would say it's very likely that the benefit will outweigh the rare occasions where it hurts you. But again, no one is denying that there are potential situations in which it can hurt you.

 

The pin might have cost Tiger the 2013 masters. He hit a perfect wedge that bounced off flag and rolled into the water. Then there was the drop fiasco where he got a 2 shot penalty from that. If the flag would have been out, tiger makes 4 there likely and it's a 4 shot swing, which is what he lost the tournament by. So why doesn't everyone pull the flag from partial wedge range? Because clearly the benefit of aiming and etc outweighs the risk of something like that happening. Phil is the only person I've ever seen pull the flag for a wedge shot and we all know the logic behind his decisions is questionable at best.

[davep043]

The bottom line is until a comprehensive data set is produced which explores the speed regime applicable to putting (1 - 6 feet past approximately) we are stuck with theoretical calculations (with merit, but difficult to include all nuances) and experienced subjective musings. Pelz data is very good for the very poorly struck putts (his chipping study), but does not address the most common putting speeds. Once we have data covering the entire speed regime then the picture will be clear and everyone can make an informed decision. I think it will be a marginal advantage for putts hit very hard to a marginal disadvantage for firmly struck putts and a complete wash for optimal holing speed putts (obviously personal opinion).

This is the most logical post I've read in this thread. We're all speculating to some extent about what the ball will do at different speeds, different locations in the hole, flagstick leaning different directions, all of that, and not a single one of us knows for sure. We also speculating that people, including PGA touring pros, will hit the ball harder, even though its completely possible that they won't change their intended pace at all. There simply are too many putts that never touch the hole to encourage me to change my putting speed, I want to leave the ball close. There's even speculation that the USGA/R&A are "freaking out" about the potential impact of the rule. For me, I'm going to make my choices based on what I understand of the physics, and on the few studies we have available now. In the meantime, I'm going to be watching for the results of studies that will inform my future decisions.

I'm not a big fan of the rule, and I hope the USGA/R&A will review studies that come out, and revise the rule if it is deemed appropriate. My best guess, it will have a pretty small impact on scoring, and an equally small impact on pace of play.

[pinhigh27]

the speculation comes from what haney said. he is the one who said that. I'm just reiterating. It doesn't seem hard to believe that the USGA would make a rule change before failing to grasp the potential consequences.

 

I'm not saying tour players will change their speed, I'm saying they could. there's a difference. for me personally I will do everything the same except leave the flag in always unless the rest of the group wants it out in which case I really don't care and we can leave it out.

[ThinkingPlus]

The bottom line is until a comprehensive data set is produced which explores the speed regime applicable to putting (1 - 6 feet past approximately) we are stuck with theoretical calculations (with merit, but difficult to include all nuances) and experienced subjective musings. Pelz data is very good for the very poorly struck putts (his chipping study), but does not address the most common putting speeds. Once we have data covering the entire speed regime then the picture will be clear and everyone can make an informed decision. I think it will be a marginal advantage for putts hit very hard to a marginal disadvantage for firmly struck putts and a complete wash for optimal holing speed putts (obviously personal opinion).

This is the most logical post I've read in this thread. We're all speculating to some extent about what the ball will do at different speeds, different locations in the hole, flagstick leaning different directions, all of that, and not a single one of us knows for sure. We also speculating that people, including PGA touring pros, will hit the ball harder, even though its completely possible that they won't change their intended pace at all. There simply are too many putts that never touch the hole to encourage me to change my putting speed, I want to leave the ball close. There's even speculation that the USGA/R&A are "freaking out" about the potential impact of the rule. For me, I'm going to make my choices based on what I understand of the physics, and on the few studies we have available now. In the meantime, I'm going to be watching for the results of studies that will inform my future decisions.

I'm not a big fan of the rule, and I hope the USGA/R&A will review studies that come out, and revise the rule if it is deemed appropriate. My best guess, it will have a pretty small impact on scoring, and an equally small impact on pace of play.

I don't care for the rule either. Solution to a non-existent problem. Everyone brings up the "playing as a single, can now save time and play by the rules" which is a total red herring. The scores are non-postable. The round is practice by definition. Do anything you want. Time saved for long putts in groups will be offset by the flag in/out stupid human tricks for all other putts. Funny that the ruling bodies might be panicking. They had infinite time and money to do the study before they changed the rule and didn't do it? LOL! There are non-PC words for that kind of behaviour.

[glk]

The bottom line is until a comprehensive data set is produced which explores the speed regime applicable to putting (1 - 6 feet past approximately) we are stuck with theoretical calculations (with merit, but difficult to include all nuances) and experienced subjective musings. Pelz data is very good for the very poorly struck putts (his chipping study), but does not address the most common putting speeds. Once we have data covering the entire speed regime then the picture will be clear and everyone can make an informed decision. I think it will be a marginal advantage for putts hit very hard to a marginal disadvantage for firmly struck putts and a complete wash for optimal holing speed putts (obviously personal opinion).

Pelz tested it via the tru roller he didn't hit chips. And he had a player putt too. He varied the speed to where he rolled it 3,6,9 feet past the hole.

Yes. I am very aware of Pelz data. He was simulating chipping speeds. There was little to no advantage at 3'. He began seeing more advantage at 6' and 9' showed the biggest advantage. Nothing really beyond 6' is applicable to putting unless someone is incompetent (the percentage of putts missing by more than 6' will be less than 1% even for poor putters).

Or like me playing a Ross course that stimps at 11 with over half the holes having severe downslopes - yes you need to first hit a good enough putt to hit the stick but I've walked off with 3 putt pars on holes where my first one was only a 4 footer and ended up at least 6 foot below the hole - it gets even more challenging when length comes into play and you can watch your "lightly" hit putt roll of the front of the green. Now I used to play a really good muni that only stimped between 8-9 and got sped up only during the city championship - so yes rolling it past 6 feet or more was a barn fart or something outside 40 feet that wasn't going to be short, so to speak. I'll take any advantage I can get.

 

One thing I'm not aware of was whether Pelz had any data on how far of a putt was left by those not holed that hit the stick - was it also an advantage to reducing 3 putts?

[davep043]

the speculation comes from what haney said. he is the one who said that. I'm just reiterating. It doesn't seem hard to believe that the USGA would make a rule change before failing to grasp the potential consequences.

I figured you were talking about the Haney stuff. In my fairly limited experience listening to him on XM, I have yet to find a topic that he presents as something other than "the sky is falling!". Its my guess, only a guess, that someone told him that the USGA would be watching closely when more studies are released, and he presented it as "the USGA is in a panic!".

The other topic I specifically remember was Haney discussing the USGA data when they did their yearly release of driving distance. "The average golfer can't hit it 200 yards, and the USGA wants to roll back the ball!!" There was nothing of the sort in the release, but I bet he said that specific phrase 40 times in the hour I was listening that day.have And please lets not go into driving distance and ball roll-backs, I only bring it up to illustrate Haney's propensity to make mountains out of molehills.

[ThinkingPlus]

The bottom line is until a comprehensive data set is produced which explores the speed regime applicable to putting (1 - 6 feet past approximately) we are stuck with theoretical calculations (with merit, but difficult to include all nuances) and experienced subjective musings. Pelz data is very good for the very poorly struck putts (his chipping study), but does not address the most common putting speeds. Once we have data covering the entire speed regime then the picture will be clear and everyone can make an informed decision. I think it will be a marginal advantage for putts hit very hard to a marginal disadvantage for firmly struck putts and a complete wash for optimal holing speed putts (obviously personal opinion).

Pelz tested it via the tru roller he didn't hit chips. And he had a player putt too. He varied the speed to where he rolled it 3,6,9 feet past the hole.

Yes. I am very aware of Pelz data. He was simulating chipping speeds. There was little to no advantage at 3'. He began seeing more advantage at 6' and 9' showed the biggest advantage. Nothing really beyond 6' is applicable to putting unless someone is incompetent (the percentage of putts missing by more than 6' will be less than 1% even for poor putters).

Or like me playing a Ross course that stimps at 11 with over half the holes having severe downslopes - yes you need to first hit a good enough putt to hit the stick but I've walked off with 3 putt pars on holes where my first one was only a 4 footer and ended up at least 6 foot below the hole - it gets even more challenging when length comes into play and you can watch your "lightly" hit putt roll of the front of the green. Now I used to play a really good muni that only stimped between 8-9 and got sped up only during the city championship - so yes rolling it past 6 feet or more was a barn fart or something outside 40 feet that wasn't going to be short, so to speak. I'll take any advantage I can get.

 

One thing I'm not aware of was whether Pelz had any data on how far of a putt was left by those not holed that hit the stick - was it also an advantage to reducing 3 putts?

That was where the primary advantage occurred. It was all about proximity to the hole after striking the flag vs. just hitting the hole. Those were the shots that were rolling 6' - 9' past. If you hit the pin they don't roll so far past. Almost none go in.

 

Faster, slopey greens increase the likelihood of speed issues. Even if from a strategic stand point it turns out yo be a wash, there may still be tactical reasons to keeping the stick in or out.

[PingEye2]

I certainly doubt many elite level players will be hitting putts harder just because the flag is in the cup. The majority of putts in a round, even on tour, never touch the cup. It would be silly to hit a 15’ putt in a way to leave a 5’ return putt.

[A.Princey]

Does anyone doubt the fact that Bryson and/or his caddie will be religiously adjusting the flag stick to ensure proper cup insertion!?! I cannot wait to watch him early in 2019 now.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

All the player can do is make sure the flag is centered in the hole, positioning it for an advantage is not allowed. I'm glad to see that caddies will no longer be allowed to line up their player.

[Oh Hi Carl]

Definitely in on longer putts.

[sui generis]

Been playing "flagstick in" for a couple of weeks . . . no drama. The side benefit is nobody is dropping the flagstick on the green. :)

[bladehunter]

as expected we had the first of many arguments on this subject in sundays rain shortened round... One suggested " lets go ahead and play with the stick in today ...almost a rule anyway ".... to which i said " im not going to want it in for all putts".. which got a " well we arent taking it in and out ...that will take all day ".... to which i said " yep.. its a rule without much thought " which was met with silence...

 

I suppose on the surfce a choice is fine.. BUT i think the assumption by most is that the choice to take it out is removed. It is not.. going to be a long January i think .

[nsxguy]

as expected we had the first of many arguments on this subject in sundays rain shortened round... One suggested " lets go ahead and play with the stick in today ...almost a rule anyway ".... to which i said " im not going to want it in for all putts".. which got a " well we arent taking it in and out ...that will take all day ".... to which i said " yep.. its a rule without much thought " which was met with silence...

 

I suppose on the surfce a choice is fine.. BUT i think the assumption by most is that the choice to take it out is removed. It is not.. going to be a long January i think .

 

So what did you guys end up doing ?

 

After all, the rule WILL be in effect in a week so all the guys whining about it won't matter one whit.

[davep043]

as expected we had the first of many arguments on this subject in sundays rain shortened round... One suggested " lets go ahead and play with the stick in today ...almost a rule anyway ".... to which i said " im not going to want it in for all putts".. which got a " well we arent taking it in and out ...that will take all day ".... to which i said " yep.. its a rule without much thought " which was met with silence...

 

I suppose on the surfce a choice is fine.. BUT i think the assumption by most is that the choice to take it out is removed. It is not.. going to be a long January i think .

There are MANY rule changes that will take some time for the bulk of players to become adjusted to, this one isn't the only one that will cause a problem or two along the way. I think you're overstating the level of misunderstanding with the underlined bit, many players will understand that this rule simply gives them a choice that they didn't have before.

I don't know whether the change will speed up play, I kind of doubt it. On the other hand, I don't think it will significantly change the way people putt, or the scores that they make. I'll leave the flag in whenever there's a potential to go well long, and I bet I'll hit the stick 6 or 8 times over the course of the season.

[bladehunter]

as expected we had the first of many arguments on this subject in sundays rain shortened round... One suggested " lets go ahead and play with the stick in today ...almost a rule anyway ".... to which i said " im not going to want it in for all putts".. which got a " well we arent taking it in and out ...that will take all day ".... to which i said " yep.. its a rule without much thought " which was met with silence...

 

I suppose on the surfce a choice is fine.. BUT i think the assumption by most is that the choice to take it out is removed. It is not.. going to be a long January i think .

There are MANY rule changes that will take some time for the bulk of players to become adjusted to, this one isn't the only one that will cause a problem or two along the way. I think you're overstating the level of misunderstanding with the underlined bit, many players will understand that this rule simply gives them a choice that they didn't have before.

I don't know whether the change will speed up play, I kind of doubt it. On the other hand, I don't think it will significantly change the way people putt, or the scores that they make. I'll leave the flag in whenever there's a potential to go well long, and I bet I'll hit the stick 6 or 8 times over the course of the season.

 

Wish you could see these guys. They are about using any advantage , not about playing better. About cutting corners. They beg for lift clean and place a week after rain .....beg for hand on ball in the rough during rain.

So naturally they want the flag in no matter what. Without consideration for it being a choice , not a requirement. See the same with lift clean and place. I generally will only pickup the ball if there’s mud or for casual water relief. These guys are picking up every shot to tee it up . Legal ? Yes of course. Its a choice. Same as the pin in. Most players you ask act as if you’re nuts if you don’t roll or pickup every shot with LCP. Same thing for both rules to me.

[bladehunter]

as expected we had the first of many arguments on this subject in sundays rain shortened round... One suggested " lets go ahead and play with the stick in today ...almost a rule anyway ".... to which i said " im not going to want it in for all putts".. which got a " well we arent taking it in and out ...that will take all day ".... to which i said " yep.. its a rule without much thought " which was met with silence...

 

I suppose on the surfce a choice is fine.. BUT i think the assumption by most is that the choice to take it out is removed. It is not.. going to be a long January i think .

 

So what did you guys end up doing ?

 

After all, the rule WILL be in effect in a week so all the guys whining about it won't matter one whit.

 

We played per 2018 rules. I didn’t force that. I just let them know I wanted it out on short and mid putts. So they chose to not pull every time I putted. Just pulled it once and put it back once. Their choice.

 

Crazy to me. This is literally a solution in search of a problem. Of all the gripes I’ve heard on a course. Pulling the pin to putt has never ever been one of them. But now that laziness is allowed the bandwagon is full.

 

I voiced that I was fine with giving it a go. But that my preference was out for shorter putts. I also said and meant that the first time a putt was kicked out by the pin I would be done. It’s a psychological deal. The brain can take the idea that you hit it too hard for the cup to hold it. What the brain will not accept is watching the pin spit out a putt that is of questionable speed. One that you know drops a lot of the time with a clear cup. Or here’s one nobody mentions. I play a lot of low high spin chips and pitches. One hop and dead shots. What happens when you clank one of those off the pin on the first hop and it then spins 10 ft back at you ? You train your brain for so long to operate without the pin. It’s now alien target and thinking. Why ? So some lard a** doesn’t have to pull it ? Come on !

[davep043]

as expected we had the first of many arguments on this subject in sundays rain shortened round... One suggested " lets go ahead and play with the stick in today ...almost a rule anyway ".... to which i said " im not going to want it in for all putts".. which got a " well we arent taking it in and out ...that will take all day ".... to which i said " yep.. its a rule without much thought " which was met with silence...

 

I suppose on the surfce a choice is fine.. BUT i think the assumption by most is that the choice to take it out is removed. It is not.. going to be a long January i think .

 

So what did you guys end up doing ?

 

After all, the rule WILL be in effect in a week so all the guys whining about it won't matter one whit.

 

We played per 2018 rules. I didn't force that. I just let them know I wanted it out on short and mid putts. So they chose to not pull every time I putted. Just pulled it once and put it back once. Their choice.

 

Crazy to me. This is literally a solution in search of a problem. Of all the gripes I've heard on a course. Pulling the pin to putt has never ever been one of them. But now that laziness is allowed the bandwagon is full.

 

I voiced that I was fine with giving it a go. But that my preference was out for shorter putts. I also said and meant that the first time a putt was kicked out by the pin I would be done. It's a psychological deal. The brain can take the idea that you hit it too hard for the cup to hold it. What the brain will not accept is watching the pin spit out a putt that is of questionable speed. One that you know drops a lot of the time with a clear cup. Or here's one nobody mentions. I play a lot of low high spin chips and pitches. One hop and dead shots. What happens when you clank one of those off the pin on the first hop and it then spins 10 ft back at you ? You train your brain for so long to operate without the pin. It's now alien target and thinking. Why ? So some lard a** doesn't have to pull it ? Come on !

I would suggest that since this is a done deal, more complaining only makes you seem like a whiner. The rule WILL change in a few days. You should feel free to have the stick removed whenever you want, the sandbagging bozos you play with will have to learn to accept that.