Putting in 2019 - Flagstick in or out?

[nsxguy]

Video of a guy with TWO putts off a ramp, flag in and out.

 

https://www.instagra...ton_share_sheet

 

I don't understand why there's not a youTuber yet who hasn't done a thousand of these. Maybe I'll try to DIY a ramp and make that video myself.

 

That's a great video thanks. Did you notice how differently the ball reacts when the flag is in compared to when it is out. When the flag is in the ball bounces off the flag downwards. With no flag the ball bounces off the back of the hole upwards.

 

It's a shame they did not do the comparison at a speed where the ball bounced out of the hole without the flag to see if it holed with the flag in.

 

Perhaps you could try this in your video :golfer:

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

This !!!

 

Ball ain't round and the surface isn't flat - there will be a lot of "almosts" (just like there are now). I'm pretty sure the Rulesmakes have done tons of testing on these exact scenarios and came up with "6 of one, half dozen of the other".

 

I've done a lot of testing,,,,,,, or more accurately paying attention lately as I always practice putting with the sticks in. In the store I've been seeing a number of "violent" lip outs BUT in the store the plastic edges of the cups are at "green" height so (more ?) spin outs are expected.

 

But practicing on real grass is different. I'm leaning towards, on rather straight putts, leaving the flag in but on putts that break a fair bit I've been noticing that on the low side they seem to be touching the stick and spinning OUT but on the high side they'll be hitting the stick and staying IN. :fie:

 

If that is actually kinda sorta true then on breaking putts it might make a difference on where one generally misses; to the low side (most of us) or the high side. And if one's tendency is to the high side leave it in but if it's to the low side take it out,,,,,,,,,,

 

Gonna be interesting,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :dntknw:

[pinhigh27]

so it's touching the flag and spinning out? How does that make any sense. if it's hitting the flag then by definition the flag is slowing it down. I have no idea how taking it out when you miss on the low side would help. the ball would be in the furthest position of the hole from the flag, it shouldn't matter at all.

 

it doesn't matter what side you miss on. it helps you as long as the flag is straight.

[nsxguy]

so it's touching the flag and spinning out? How does that make any sense. if it's hitting the flag then by definition the flag is slowing it down. I have no idea how taking it out when you miss on the low side would help. the ball would be in the furthest position of the hole from the flag, it shouldn't matter at all.

 

it doesn't matter what side you miss on. it helps you as long as the flag is straight.

 

I realize you're an expert at most anything golf, especially iron forgiveness & hot spots, but I'm just relaying some observations I've made.

 

But riddle me this. On a breaking putt, without the pin in, depending on the speed of course, if the ball hits the low side of the cup and spins toward the center, does it not have more of a chance of dropping than if it hits the high side of the hole and spins towards the center ?

 

Of course it does. On its way 'round the rim there's this thing called "gravity" which can slow it down & suck it into the hole or speed it up and pull it away from the hole.

 

So I guess my observation has to do with the possible effects of gravity. Even though the pin slows the ball, it also sends it in a different direction - towards the low side where gravity is pulling it away from the center or the high side where gravity is pulling it towards the center.

 

Anyway, just conjecture but that's the way I see it.

 

You appear to disagree. Oh well. :dntknw:

[Therty]

Was planning on keeping it in, 4 ft birdie putt, dead center cup bounced off the pin and didnt go in. Coming out in 2019.

[powerpushfade]

It will be out 15 feet or less. It will be in on anything over 15 feet. The only exception will be a slick downhill 5 footer, I may keep it in then.

[nsxguy]

Was planning on keeping it in, 4 ft birdie putt, dead center cup bounced off the pin and didnt go in. Coming out in 2019.

 

Are you sure it wouldn't have gone over the back lip had the flagstick not been in the hole ?

[pinhigh27]

I have no idea how someone is hitting a 4 foot putt hard enough to hit the pin and go out of the hole. And yes again, if it was hit hard enough to do so, the cup would have not kept it in.

 

This is assuming the pin was vertical.

[b.mattay]

I have no idea how someone is hitting a 4 foot putt hard enough to hit the pin and go out of the hole. And yes again, if it was hit hard enough to do so, the cup would have not kept it in.

 

This is assuming the pin was vertical.

 

Thick pins and/or the hole is cut on a severe slope.

[LeoLeo99]

I predict most of the new rules will be rescinded in a few years or there will be straight up bifurcation. The 2018 rules for professional and high level amateurs and the 2019 rules for the rest of us.

[duck hook]

Most of my misses are short, I’m going to leave the pin in and try to focus on hitting the pin and see if that helps with leaving putts short

[fairways4life]

Longer putts = bombs away.

 

But on shorter putts, I find that having the flagstick in makes the hole feel smaller. I don't like taking that one last glance at the hole on a five footer and seeing it all filled up with fiberglass. Having it out makes the hole look and feel bigger to me and gives me a little more confidence. Maybe it's being able to focus in on the back of the cup. Even on the practice green I have to take them out when hitting short putts. Just a mental thing for me.

[Therty]

Was planning on keeping it in, 4 ft birdie putt, dead center cup bounced off the pin and didnt go in. Coming out in 2019.

 

Are you sure it wouldn't have gone over the back lip had the flagstick not been in the hole ?

 

Absoloutely sure. Cup cut on a slope. It was a good pace. 3 witnesses made fun of me for a long time because I had been touting how its easier to make putts with the pin in. Not a great day hahah

[I_HATE_SNOW]

Most of my misses are short, I’m going to leave the pin in and try to focus on hitting the pin and see if that helps with leaving putts short

I've been doing that. On short putts, the stick gives me a small aiming point, as opposed to the middle of the cup. Been amazed at how hard you have to hit it to make the ball ricochet out of the hole.

[sui generis]

I predict most of the new rules will be rescinded in a few years or there will be straight up bifurcation. The 2018 rules for professional and high level amateurs and the 2019 rules for the rest of us.

 

I predict in four more years you'll still not have the foggiest idea how the Rules work. :swoon:

[dlygrisse]

Silly rule change, will have zero practical impact on pace of play, just a crutch to help putts go in. Populism rules, some of the essence of the game disappears 1/1/19.

 

Perspective is a funny thing. I always thought it was a silly rule to begin with. It was legal for most of the games history.. 20th century rule. I have a buddy who is convinced it is harder to make a putt with it in, I think it’s a tiny bit easier.

 

On occasion it might speed things up a bit, but in the grand scheme I don’t think it’s going to make too much difference.

 

Not needing someone to tend the stick when you are 50 feet away is nice on occasion. The only issue I see is if you are playing with someone who insists on keeping it in and vice versa.

[LeoLeo99]

I predict most of the new rules will be rescinded in a few years or there will be straight up bifurcation. The 2018 rules for professional and high level amateurs and the 2019 rules for the rest of us.

 

I predict in four more years you'll still not have the foggiest idea how the Rules work. :swoon:

 

After years of you ridiculing folks like me who said the rules for OB and lost ball requiring stroke and distance were overly penal....well, here we are. Hit a ball OB or lose it and now you can just drop a ball, take some penalty strokes and get on with it. Just like folks like me have asking for. It's a sad day for you when people like me get their way with the rules. But sometimes common sense wins.

[jasonfish11]

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

 

I think what you mean is that it's impossible to guarantee a specific result on 1 individual roll of the ball. It is 100% possible to quantify the likelihood of a pin improving a specific put though. That is the entire point of the "statistics" branch of mathematics.

 

I personally have not done the math, but I'm pretty sure it will be available soon as someone is doing it and what it will likely say is something along the lines of "through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can say with a 95% certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out." Or it will say ""through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can not say with any level of certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out."

 

So being able to quantify the potential benefit of a flag stick being in or out is absolutely possible, unless you just disagree with statistics as a branch of math/science and think all statistics are complete poppycock. If that is the case then I will not be arguing with you, because it would be more worth my time to bang my head against a wall.

 

The fun thing is I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said they can guarantee 1 specific putt would be helped by the flag stick being in. Everyone I know keeps saying they believe that more often than not the flag stick will help any given putt.

[sui generis]

I predict most of the new rules will be rescinded in a few years or there will be straight up bifurcation. The 2018 rules for professional and high level amateurs and the 2019 rules for the rest of us.

 

I predict in four more years you'll still not have the foggiest idea how the Rules work. :swoon:

 

After years of you ridiculing folks like me who said the rules for OB and lost ball requiring stroke and distance were overly penal....well, here we are. Hit a ball OB or lose it and now you can just drop a ball, take some penalty strokes and get on with it. Just like folks like me have asking for. It's a sad day for you when people like me get their way with the rules. But sometimes common sense wins.

 

Nor will you have a clue as to how the Rules are made and updated . . . still, willful ignorance can be comforting to some.

[hendog39]

Playing a quick nine I will leave it in. Long putts as well, other than that I will take stick out

[Shilgy]

I predict most of the new rules will be rescinded in a few years or there will be straight up bifurcation. The 2018 rules for professional and high level amateurs and the 2019 rules for the rest of us.

 

I predict in four more years you'll still not have the foggiest idea how the Rules work. :swoon:

 

After years of you ridiculing folks like me who said the rules for OB and lost ball requiring stroke and distance were overly penal....well, here we are. Hit a ball OB or lose it and now you can just drop a ball, take some penalty strokes and get on with it. Just like folks like me have asking for. It's a sad day for you when people like me get their way with the rules. But sometimes common sense wins.

Hopefully by now you know that is not quite true. A course can put in play that Local Rule but no one needs to use it to play compliant with the rules. And I am guessing you and your cronies used one stroke instead of two when dropping. The approved local rule is simply a nod to faster play. And by having it available will allow some to feel they are playing by the rules even when they are really just playing by their made up rules.

[Shilgy]

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

 

I think what you mean is that it's impossible to guarantee a specific result on 1 individual roll of the ball. It is 100% possible to quantify the likelihood of a pin improving a specific put though. That is the entire point of the "statistics" branch of mathematics.

 

I personally have not done the math, but I'm pretty sure it will be available soon as someone is doing it and what it will likely say is something along the lines of "through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can say with a 95% certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out." Or it will say ""through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can not say with any level of certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out."

 

So being able to quantify the potential benefit of a flag stick being in or out is absolutely possible, unless you just disagree with statistics as a branch of math/science and think all statistics are complete poppycock. If that is the case then I will not be arguing with you, because it would be more worth my time to bang my head against a wall.

 

The fun thing is I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said they can guarantee 1 specific putt would be helped by the flag stick being in. Everyone I know keeps saying they believe that more often than not the flag stick will help any given putt.

I am comfortable with what I wrote. Perhaps I am wrong but I will stick with it. What flagstick are you using? Will that give me any useful information if my course uses a different material flagstick? Is the ball hitting dead center or glancing off the pin? How fast is it going. Without being to absolutely quantify those criteria how is the information useful?

[jasonfish11]

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

 

I think what you mean is that it's impossible to guarantee a specific result on 1 individual roll of the ball. It is 100% possible to quantify the likelihood of a pin improving a specific put though. That is the entire point of the "statistics" branch of mathematics.

 

I personally have not done the math, but I'm pretty sure it will be available soon as someone is doing it and what it will likely say is something along the lines of "through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can say with a 95% certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out." Or it will say ""through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can not say with any level of certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out."

 

So being able to quantify the potential benefit of a flag stick being in or out is absolutely possible, unless you just disagree with statistics as a branch of math/science and think all statistics are complete poppycock. If that is the case then I will not be arguing with you, because it would be more worth my time to bang my head against a wall.

 

The fun thing is I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said they can guarantee 1 specific putt would be helped by the flag stick being in. Everyone I know keeps saying they believe that more often than not the flag stick will help any given putt.

I am comfortable with what I wrote. Perhaps I am wrong but I will stick with it. What flagstick are you using? Will that give me any useful information if my course uses a different material flagstick? Is the ball hitting dead center or glancing off the pin? How fast is it going. Without being to absolutely quantify those criteria how is the information useful?

 

I doubt there are too many manufacturers of different flags. I have seen basically 2 types of flags in my golfing career, although I don't normally pay too much attention. That being said it would take 1-2 hours tops to gather the information you need at your specific course. Just get a hot wheels track, and a board that is 12" high so it's a standard roll. Set it up about 2' from the flag so that the ball is rolling pretty fast when it hits the hole. Then roll 100-200 balls into the hole area with both the flagstick in and out. Measure remaining distance to the hole after each ball. If you follow this data collection plan I can do the analysis after.

 

Do both of these tests with the flag stick in & out. So a total of 200 balls rolled. It would be better if you could do 100, 100, and 100 for a total of 600 balls rolled, but that might take 3 hours.

50 balls dead center

25 balls uphill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the right center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

25 balls downhill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the left center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

 

Then send it to me I'm a stats nerd and can drop it into minitab and do the regression analysis for you if you want.

[jasonfish11]

Personally I don't plan to do this at my course, to me it's simple physics that an object in motion will continue to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. The more outside force you can apply to that object in motion the quicker that object stops it's motion. So to me friction + gravity + aerodynamic drag is not as good as friction + gravity + aerodynamic drag + impact of flag stick.

 

But again I will also know I've done no testing to validate that hypothesis.

[nsxguy]

Was planning on keeping it in, 4 ft birdie putt, dead center cup bounced off the pin and didnt go in. Coming out in 2019.

 

Are you sure it wouldn't have gone over the back lip had the flagstick not been in the hole ?

 

Absoloutely sure. Cup cut on a slope. It was a good pace. 3 witnesses made fun of me for a long time because I had been touting how its easier to make putts with the pin in. Not a great day hahah

 

So it was an uphill putt then. How severe was the slope ?

[davep043]

I imagine that at least a few people will be studying this issue in detail. I'd bet that Bryson won't rely only on his educated opinion about different flagsticks, he'll make sure the issue gets studied, even if he doesn't personally conduct any studies. I think that if Dave Pelz wants to maintain his image as short-game and putting guru, he'll do some detailed studies. Of course, he may want funding through Kickstarter, like he did with his Green Reading book.

 

On the other hand, no matter how much research is done, many people will continue to rely on their own experience. @Therty will remove the pin, because he had a putt bounce off the flag. A friend of mine will always remove it, because his "experience" has shown him that its better that way. Of course, if I have a speedy long chip hit the flag and go in, he ignores that, because its hit "HIT" experience, its mine. I'll wait to see what gets published, but for now I believe the flagstick will help on putts that are going well long, and will be neutral on putts hit with proper speed.

[nsxguy]

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

 

I think what you mean is that it's impossible to guarantee a specific result on 1 individual roll of the ball. It is 100% possible to quantify the likelihood of a pin improving a specific put though. That is the entire point of the "statistics" branch of mathematics.

 

I personally have not done the math, but I'm pretty sure it will be available soon as someone is doing it and what it will likely say is something along the lines of "through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can say with a 95% certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out." Or it will say ""through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can not say with any level of certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out."

 

So being able to quantify the potential benefit of a flag stick being in or out is absolutely possible, unless you just disagree with statistics as a branch of math/science and think all statistics are complete poppycock. If that is the case then I will not be arguing with you, because it would be more worth my time to bang my head against a wall.

 

The fun thing is I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said they can guarantee 1 specific putt would be helped by the flag stick being in. Everyone I know keeps saying they believe that more often than not the flag stick will help any given putt.

I am comfortable with what I wrote. Perhaps I am wrong but I will stick with it. What flagstick are you using? Will that give me any useful information if my course uses a different material flagstick? Is the ball hitting dead center or glancing off the pin? How fast is it going. Without being to absolutely quantify those criteria how is the information useful?

 

I doubt there are too many manufacturers of different flags. I have seen basically 2 types of flags in my golfing career, although I don't normally pay too much attention. That being said it would take 1-2 hours tops to gather the information you need at your specific course. Just get a hot wheels track, and a board that is 12" high so it's a standard roll. Set it up about 2' from the flag so that the ball is rolling pretty fast when it hits the hole. Then roll 100-200 balls into the hole area with both the flagstick in and out. Measure remaining distance to the hole after each ball. If you follow this data collection plan I can do the analysis after.

 

Do both of these tests with the flag stick in & out. So a total of 200 balls rolled. It would be better if you could do 100, 100, and 100 for a total of 600 balls rolled, but that might take 3 hours.

50 balls dead center

25 balls uphill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the right center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

25 balls downhill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the left center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

 

Then send it to me I'm a stats nerd and can drop it into minitab and do the regression analysis for you if you want.

 

How about when the ball hits the flag at 6 o'clock ? 5 ? 4 ? 3 ? 4:30 ? At 4mph ? At 5 mph ? At 6 mph ? At 5.25 mph ? On a flat surface ? On a crooked surface ? On a crooked uphill surface ?

 

TIA (cool)

[jasonfish11]

You may get percentages information of the pin helping but certainly not absolutes. We have all seen shots react differently off of different flagstick materials and just a millimeter variance could give a different result. Impossible to really quantify IMO.

 

 

I think what you mean is that it's impossible to guarantee a specific result on 1 individual roll of the ball. It is 100% possible to quantify the likelihood of a pin improving a specific put though. That is the entire point of the "statistics" branch of mathematics.

 

I personally have not done the math, but I'm pretty sure it will be available soon as someone is doing it and what it will likely say is something along the lines of "through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can say with a 95% certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out." Or it will say ""through thousands of tests and various regression analysis, we can not say with any level of certainty that there is a statistically significant difference between leaving the flag stick in and leaving it out."

 

So being able to quantify the potential benefit of a flag stick being in or out is absolutely possible, unless you just disagree with statistics as a branch of math/science and think all statistics are complete poppycock. If that is the case then I will not be arguing with you, because it would be more worth my time to bang my head against a wall.

 

The fun thing is I don't think anyone in this thread has ever said they can guarantee 1 specific putt would be helped by the flag stick being in. Everyone I know keeps saying they believe that more often than not the flag stick will help any given putt.

I am comfortable with what I wrote. Perhaps I am wrong but I will stick with it. What flagstick are you using? Will that give me any useful information if my course uses a different material flagstick? Is the ball hitting dead center or glancing off the pin? How fast is it going. Without being to absolutely quantify those criteria how is the information useful?

 

I doubt there are too many manufacturers of different flags. I have seen basically 2 types of flags in my golfing career, although I don't normally pay too much attention. That being said it would take 1-2 hours tops to gather the information you need at your specific course. Just get a hot wheels track, and a board that is 12" high so it's a standard roll. Set it up about 2' from the flag so that the ball is rolling pretty fast when it hits the hole. Then roll 100-200 balls into the hole area with both the flagstick in and out. Measure remaining distance to the hole after each ball. If you follow this data collection plan I can do the analysis after.

 

Do both of these tests with the flag stick in & out. So a total of 200 balls rolled. It would be better if you could do 100, 100, and 100 for a total of 600 balls rolled, but that might take 3 hours.

50 balls dead center

25 balls uphill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the right center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

25 balls downhill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the left center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

 

Then send it to me I'm a stats nerd and can drop it into minitab and do the regression analysis for you if you want.

 

How about when the ball hits the flag at 6 o'clock ? 5 ? 4 ? 3 ? 4:30 ? At 4mph ? At 5 mph ? At 6 mph ? At 5.25 mph ? On a flat surface ? On a crooked surface ? On a crooked uphill surface ?

 

TIA (cool)

 

If there is a significant statistical difference between flag in and flag out on my study, do you feel you need all of that to convince yourself? If so then no study will be good enough for you and you are probably pretty close to believing that the science of statistics is poppycock. To which I mentioned earlier that I'd not waste my time arguing with you.

 

This is the 2nd phase of the allegory of the cave. If I tell the people looking at shadows on the cave wall there is a beautiful world out there and they choose to ignore me, I quit caring about their enlightenment.

[nsxguy]

I am comfortable with what I wrote. Perhaps I am wrong but I will stick with it. What flagstick are you using? Will that give me any useful information if my course uses a different material flagstick? Is the ball hitting dead center or glancing off the pin? How fast is it going. Without being to absolutely quantify those criteria how is the information useful?

 

I doubt there are too many manufacturers of different flags. I have seen basically 2 types of flags in my golfing career, although I don't normally pay too much attention. That being said it would take 1-2 hours tops to gather the information you need at your specific course. Just get a hot wheels track, and a board that is 12" high so it's a standard roll. Set it up about 2' from the flag so that the ball is rolling pretty fast when it hits the hole. Then roll 100-200 balls into the hole area with both the flagstick in and out. Measure remaining distance to the hole after each ball. If you follow this data collection plan I can do the analysis after.

 

Do both of these tests with the flag stick in & out. So a total of 200 balls rolled. It would be better if you could do 100, 100, and 100 for a total of 600 balls rolled, but that might take 3 hours.

50 balls dead center

25 balls uphill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the right center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

25 balls downhill center (ex on a right to left slope the ball hits the left center of the hole glancing off the flag that would be in it)

 

Then send it to me I'm a stats nerd and can drop it into minitab and do the regression analysis for you if you want.

 

How about when the ball hits the flag at 6 o'clock ? 5 ? 4 ? 3 ? 4:30 ? At 4mph ? At 5 mph ? At 6 mph ? At 5.25 mph ? On a flat surface ? On a crooked surface ? On a crooked uphill surface ?

 

TIA (cool)

 

If there is a significant statistical difference between flag in and flag out on my study, do you feel you need all of that to convince yourself? If so then no study will be good enough for you and you are probably pretty close to believing that the science of statistics is poppycock. To which I mentioned earlier that I'd not waste my time arguing with you.

 

Are you going to provide statistics on "all" the different situations ?

 

If so, I'd be more than happy to study your results.

 

But if all you come up with is "slightly better chance in (or out)", then I already know that,,,,,,,, or rather it's one or the other,,,,,,,,, and then I'll find comfort in the fact that my observations are just as useful as your "science". ;)

[BMC]

Player A putting 20 ft from the hole says "pull the pin"

 

Player B putting 15 ft from the hole says "put the pin in"

 

How does this speed up play again?

[jasonfish11]

 

Are you going to provide statistics on "all" the different situations ?

 

 

That is impossible, and if you feel there is a statistically significant difference between a ball traveling at 4 mph and one traveling at 4.1 mph then I feel bad for you.

 

 

 

But if all you come up with is "slightly better chance in (or out)", then I already know that,,,,,,,, or rather it's one or the other,,,,,,,,, and then I'll find comfort in the fact that my observations are just as useful as your "science". ;)

 

Enjoy the cave shadows man.