The real reason golfers don’t get better with practice

[birly-shirly]

[...] is you can’t take impact and ball flight as real evidence of progress. Even a blind squirrel finds the occasional acorn. And random positive reinforcement is among the most powerful realities of golf.

 

[...]

 

Isn't that the essence of the "meta-awareness" problem.

 

Are you thinking about what you need to be thinking about as you try to improve your technique?

 

Or are you worrying about how your shot is going to turn out?

 

Or maybe giving yourself a pat on the back because your ball flew well (and not paying close attention to whether you really did what you were trying to do technique-wise)

[Golfer4Life]

I'm wondering if at my course this Spring we offered: "How to Practice to Improve" sessions and marketed them correctly, what the turn out would be?

 

I'll give you an example of this. We had Danny Edwards come to our course and offered a short game clinic. Danny keeps a place here in the Adirondacks and he has tons of knowledge. You know how many people signed up for it? 2!!!! Myself and another member, that's it!

 

Two hours of actual practical instruction at a great price from an actual PGA/Champions Tour player and only 2 of us signed up.

 

 

[wmblake2000]

The whole understanding of how the average golfer can go about learning how to improve is not well-understood by the entire teaching community. Of course, the very best are, well, the very best, but for the rank and file who deliver the bulk of lessons, this is something they also need help in understanding and using.

 

I have worked with some of the best teachers in the biz. The topic of how to actually take what they tell me to do (which I can do in the lesson) and get it to my own practice and then playing has been a MINOR theme at best.

 

I would take it a step further and say the issue is also on the golfer's side, where they themselves are not realistic with their game and their learning process. The reality is humans are very reward driven creatures and when we aren't rewarded as expected, we can quickly become discouraged. When it comes to golf instruction, that get's even more complicated because it then involves monetary expenditure, in which case the golfer not only wants the reward, but EXPECTS the reward, and in many cases expects the reward instantly.

 

When they aren't rewarded instantly, they can quickly become jaded, and blame the teacher, blame the profession, and become completely disillusioned that instructors aren't really interested in helping them, that they simply cant be helped, or that the real answer is really hidden lightening in a bottle that they must find. If they could just find that one feel, or one idea, that their flawed swing will be cured and they will be just a short game away from being scratch. I mean if all these pros can become pros with weird swings, why can't they break 80 with their huge move off the ball, right?

 

I think Monte had an instagram post about weight loss awhile ago. Most folks know that you didn't get to be over-weight in a few months/weeks time, yet somehow think they will shed it all if they hit the gym for a little while and cut back on carbs. They might even go so far to hire a personal trainer, hoping to speed up the process, try weird diets, try weird routines, do juice clenses, etc etc etc. When that doesn't result in shedding the 30lbs they built up over the last few years, they give up and go back into their old habits, essentially refusing to accept that long lasting weight loss comes down to dedication and commitment to a healthy lifestyle change. I think most folks know this to be true and I'd say it parallel's the golf instruction world very much so, but a lot of golfer's seem to think otherwise.

 

The way I see this play out is how a random swing creates a good result. Connected to that is a golfer’s feel and connected to that is his theory behind that feel. Aka positive random reinforcement. Aka powerful myth and superstition.

 

Systematic learning is very different. In part I think the problem is teaching pros need their students to feel optimistic about the benefit of lessons but the truth is for most of us adults it will take some diligent, intelligent effort.

 

But there are more and less efficient ways to learn. This is one of the big holes in teaching pros common understanding, or so it seems to me.

[jbw749]

This thread got completely derailed by the meta-awareness thing, which is a shame.

 

This thread started as a thread about how to learn, which is a great topic for a thread.

Why is it being derailed? In wrx terms no one is getting too nasty. The thread is going just fine. Meta-awareness, mindfulness, witnessing thoughts is a tool, frankly it's a tool you use the rest of your life. It is not likely to have any negative effect on your life or golf game. Quite the opposite.

 

[wmblake2000]

[...] is you can’t take impact and ball flight as real evidence of progress. Even a blind squirrel finds the occasional acorn. And random positive reinforcement is among the most powerful realities of golf.

 

[...]

 

Isn't that the essence of the "meta-awareness" problem.

 

Are you thinking about what you need to be thinking about as you try to improve your technique?

 

Or are you worrying about how your shot is going to turn out?

 

Or maybe giving yourself a pat on the back because your ball flew well (and not paying close attention to whether you really did what you were trying to do technique-wise)

 

Well, me personally, I have been trying to figure out how to get reliable, valid, objective feedback. I am pretty clear (except for where I am not!) what I want to do. Did I do it better? What just happened in this swing?

 

My personal challenge is that ‘feel channel’ Jim talks about is not great for me (this is an example of meta awareness). I have to really focus intently to feel the entire motion of a swing and repeat a new move in slow motion a LOT to make it visible to my awareness. I have improved at this but still there are a lot of blank spaces.

 

So I don’t know if I agree that this is wholly a meta-awareness problem. A large part of the challenge is getting really good feedback. “This feel created this body/club motion that created this ball flight, and I can trust, rely on and commit to it.”Tying those links together is how I see the core learning challenge.

[wmblake2000]

I'm wondering if at my course this Spring we offered: "How to Practice to Improve" sessions and marketed them correctly, what the turn out would be?

 

Avid golfers who really want to improve are a (small) minority of all golfers. But if the market was large enough and the program positioned properly, sure there’d be a turnout for it.

[Atrayn]

I'm wondering if at my course this Spring we offered: "How to Practice to Improve" sessions and marketed them correctly, what the turn out would be?

 

Avid golfers who really want to improve are a (small) minority of all golfers. But if the market was large enough and the program positioned properly, sure there’d be a turnout for it.

 

Possibly, but I think that most "avid" golfers already think they know how to practice so maybe decline,,. interesting

[gatorpedsMD]

This thread got completely derailed by the meta-awareness thing, which is a shame.

 

This thread started as a thread about how to learn, which is a great topic for a thread.

 

agreed.

 

i do hope the article helps some as this is a great succinct summary of how I and others have been able to improve....

 

going to test the game this weekend at trump international tips 7,326 yds @ 77/155

[Krt22]

The whole understanding of how the average golfer can go about learning how to improve is not well-understood by the entire teaching community. Of course, the very best are, well, the very best, but for the rank and file who deliver the bulk of lessons, this is something they also need help in understanding and using.

 

I have worked with some of the best teachers in the biz. The topic of how to actually take what they tell me to do (which I can do in the lesson) and get it to my own practice and then playing has been a MINOR theme at best.

 

I would take it a step further and say the issue is also on the golfer's side, where they themselves are not realistic with their game and their learning process. The reality is humans are very reward driven creatures and when we aren't rewarded as expected, we can quickly become discouraged. When it comes to golf instruction, that get's even more complicated because it then involves monetary expenditure, in which case the golfer not only wants the reward, but EXPECTS the reward, and in many cases expects the reward instantly.

 

When they aren't rewarded instantly, they can quickly become jaded, and blame the teacher, blame the profession, and become completely disillusioned that instructors aren't really interested in helping them, that they simply cant be helped, or that the real answer is really hidden lightening in a bottle that they must find. If they could just find that one feel, or one idea, that their flawed swing will be cured and they will be just a short game away from being scratch. I mean if all these pros can become pros with weird swings, why can't they break 80 with their huge move off the ball, right?

 

I think Monte had an instagram post about weight loss awhile ago. Most folks know that you didn't get to be over-weight in a few months/weeks time, yet somehow think they will shed it all if they hit the gym for a little while and cut back on carbs. They might even go so far to hire a personal trainer, hoping to speed up the process, try weird diets, try weird routines, do juice clenses, etc etc etc. When that doesn't result in shedding the 30lbs they built up over the last few years, they give up and go back into their old habits, essentially refusing to accept that long lasting weight loss comes down to dedication and commitment to a healthy lifestyle change. I think most folks know this to be true and I'd say it parallel's the golf instruction world very much so, but a lot of golfer's seem to think otherwise.

 

The way I see this play out is how a random swing creates a good result. Connected to that is a golfer’s feel and connected to that is his theory behind that feel. Aka positive random reinforcement. Aka powerful myth and superstition.

 

Systematic learning is very different. In part I think the problem is teaching pros need their students to feel optimistic about the benefit of lessons but the truth is for most of us adults it will take some diligent, intelligent effort.

 

But there are more and less efficient ways to learn. This is one of the big holes in teaching pros common understanding, or so it seems to me.

 

I largely agree but still think some of the accountability falls on the golfers shoulders, perhaps the student/teacher relationship would be better if more instructors were more realistic with their students in terms of how much time they will need to invest on their own and more thorough in terms of what the take away of each lesson should be.

 

I also agree that random positive reinforcement is a very dangerous thing, perhaps one of the most dangerous things when it comes to golfers improving. Far too many golfer's think they have "found" something when in reality sometimes even the blind squirrel finds a nut

[larrybud]

And Larrybud. You, sir, should take a few deep breaths before you insult people for offering their well considered and thoughtful understanding. I know it is satisfying for some people to do this but in the end it just damages our common desire to enjoy the game and learn what we can from each other.

 

What exactly was the "insult" that I made? I disagree with the mumbo-jumbo and I believe that does more harm than good.

[munichop]

Great point regarding your putting. Many people do exactly that, and enjoy the tinkering process on their own, however, if it's available and you really are interested in improving it, why not go to a SAM lab and have your putting stroke analyzed? You may find that you are doing something repetitive that you never would know otherwise...

 

Per this suggestion I have never been to a lab but I do know my tendencies.

The reason I consider myself a streaky putter is more about green reading and the fact that I have multiple ways of putting and putters that I switch to depending on the how the greens are rolling at the munis where I play. Like Larry Nelson (who won one of his majors using a different putter every round- something I believe will never be done again) I have a bullpen of putters begging to get in the game. So I have auditions on a regular basis and always take at least 3 to the course the day of my round for final cuts.

At different times I have putted in competition with 2 putters, looking at the hole on every putt (won a city championship doing that), putting both ways with a Golfsmith bullseye component (won a city title that way), putting only short putts looking at the whole (won a city title that way), putting left hand low (won a city title that way), using open ,square and closed stances...you get the idea. But I have astigmatisms in both eyes and do not see some of the more subtle breaks that good green readers do. So putting for me is a confidence game. When I have it I make more than I should when I don't golf can become an anger management session. The key putt for me when I warm up is the 4-6 footer that is a left edge putt ( I putt righty only now) if I release the putter properly. I know in 3 tries with each putter if I have one that works. Sometimes none do other times all of them do. I don't stress much about it. I am over 50 now have exceeded my playing expectations many times over and am comfortable in my pool of fish.

 

All that aside, all proper practice does is create a mindset of confidence that you will execute what you want to do when you get one chance to do it. And the expectation that the Golf Gods will be kind to you when you need them to be. Confidence removes fear and doubt. It is the most important club in the bag.

[alfriday]

I used to be a frustrated golfer. I would take lessons, diligently do what I was told, hit countless balls and show only modest improvement. Apparently, I just didn't have the talent necessary to be a good golfer.

 

Then, five or six years ago, I went to a workshop that advertised most attendees improved 5 strokes on their handicap with no lessons on technique. They were't going to change your grip, takeaway, make sure your club face was correct at P4 of the swing, etc.

 

The process was as follows:

 

They started with questions that made you think about how the golf club and the golf movement work to create the shot you wanted. By making the attendees reason out the response, we got a good grasp of the essentials of what we were trying to accomplish.

 

Each part of the course (putting, short game, ball striking, etc) had drills that were designed for the player. The purpose of the drills was explained fully. The drills had an order to them, each one a bit more difficult than the last. The drills were to be done in a specific way: always to a target, the target changed each time, you had to watch the ball all the way until it stopped and then evaluate the result. We had to keep track of how many good shots we hit during each drill to compare day to day. At the end of a session, we reviewed the session to plan out how we would approach things the next day. In the on course segment, you had to state out loud what shot you wanted to hit (and why) and evaluate the result.

 

The only swing thought allowed was a tempo mantra. It was encouraged to say it out loud on all practice swings and when hitting the ball. Mine was "one and two."

 

Guess what: it worked. I followed the process and got down to the lowest handicap I'd had in years.

 

And, being a typical golfer, the next year I went back to regular, technique oriented lessons because I wanted to get even better. Disaster. My handicap went up and I got frustrated. Fortunately I didn't lose all the gains I'd made the year before.

 

I sat down and evaluated what was working, and what wasn't working. I went back to the drills and started to improve again.

 

I looked for additional drills to help my game. In my search, I came across terms like "self-organization," "deliberate practice," "challenge point," "non-judgmental evaluation," myelination" and "skills based learning." I realized that the workshop I attended could have been called Applied Learning Theory 101. They didn't use any of the fancy, scientific terms, but the process was applied learning theory. I found the research interesting, so I read more and started to apply it to my own practice and play. I took it past the 101 level.

 

Two years ago, after reviewing a number of practice plans on the web, I came up with my own plan. It had specific goals, measurable results and followed a similar process to the one in the workshop, albeit bit more advance. My plan was primarily skills based. I found that working on specific skill also improves technique. Note, however, I did take a couple of regular lessons when I discovered that my technique was off and I didn't know how to fix it. Technique is important, but not the be all, end all of golf improvement. I was able to learn the changes the pro wanted me to make much faster than in the past because I had learned what type of practice is good for technique changes and what is good for skill development.

 

Last year my average score dropped 9 shots. This year, my average score went down another 5 shots. The end of the year was a bit frustrating, however. I kept thinking I was on the verge of a big drop in scores but it never quite happened.

 

I am currently working on a plan for next year. I have already identified the areas where I need to improve. In one area, I have figured out the skill drills to try. Still working on the others. I will start with a short game lesson to make sure my technique is serviceable.

 

I spend about the same amount of time practicing as I used to, but I hit a lot few balls. If I lose concentration, I take a break. Practice is a lot more fun than it used to be. A lot of the drills I do are games; i try to beat the score I had last time. I am more engaged in and enthusiastic about practice than I used to be. And most importantly, I am enjoying golf more than I have in a long time.

 

I'm 60 years old if that makes a difference to anyone.

[jerebear21]

The dumber I got with the golf swing. The better I became.

 

Having a type a personality the hardest part was learning to let go and just dumbing down. Going full kdhdhdh$:):).

[ebrasmus21]

I used to be a frustrated golfer. I would take lessons, diligently do what I was told, hit countless balls and show only modest improvement. Apparently, I just didn't have the talent necessary to be a good golfer.

 

Then, five or six years ago, I went to a workshop that advertised most attendees improved 5 strokes on their handicap with no lessons on technique. They were't going to change your grip, takeaway, make sure your club face was correct at P4 of the swing, etc.

 

The process was as follows:

 

They started with questions that made you think about how the golf club and the golf movement work to create the shot you wanted. By making the attendees reason out the response, we got a good grasp of the essentials of what we were trying to accomplish.

 

Each part of the course (putting, short game, ball striking, etc) had drills that were designed for the player. The purpose of the drills was explained fully. The drills had an order to them, each one a bit more difficult than the last. The drills were to be done in a specific way: always to a target, the target changed each time, you had to watch the ball all the way until it stopped and then evaluate the result. We had to keep track of how many good shots we hit during each drill to compare day to day. At the end of a session, we reviewed the session to plan out how we would approach things the next day. In the on course segment, you had to state out loud what shot you wanted to hit (and why) and evaluate the result.

 

The only swing thought allowed was a tempo mantra. It was encouraged to say it out loud on all practice swings and when hitting the ball. Mine was "one and two."

 

Guess what: it worked. I followed the process and got down to the lowest handicap I'd had in years.

 

And, being a typical golfer, the next year I went back to regular, technique oriented lessons because I wanted to get even better. Disaster. My handicap went up and I got frustrated. Fortunately I didn't lose all the gains I'd made the year before.

 

I sat down and evaluated what was working, and what wasn't working. I went back to the drills and started to improve again.

 

I looked for additional drills to help my game. In my search, I came across terms like "self-organization," "deliberate practice," "challenge point," "non-judgmental evaluation," myelination" and "skills based learning." I realized that the workshop I attended could have been called Applied Learning Theory 101. They didn't use any of the fancy, scientific terms, but the process was applied learning theory. I found the research interesting, so I read more and started to apply it to my own practice and play. I took it past the 101 level.

 

Two years ago, after reviewing a number of practice plans on the web, I came up with my own plan. It had specific goals, measurable results and followed a similar process to the one in the workshop, albeit bit more advance. My plan was primarily skills based. I found that working on specific skill also improves technique. Note, however, I did take a couple of regular lessons when I discovered that my technique was off and I didn't know how to fix it. Technique is important, but not the be all, end all of golf improvement. I was able to learn the changes the pro wanted me to make much faster than in the past because I had learned what type of practice is good for technique changes and what is good for skill development.

 

Last year my average score dropped 9 shots. This year, my average score went down another 5 shots. The end of the year was a bit frustrating, however. I kept thinking I was on the verge of a big drop in scores but it never quite happened.

 

I am currently working on a plan for next year. I have already identified the areas where I need to improve. In one area, I have figured out the skill drills to try. Still working on the others. I will start with a short game lesson to make sure my technique is serviceable.

 

I spend about the same amount of time practicing as I used to, but I hit a lot few balls. If I lose concentration, I take a break. Practice is a lot more fun than it used to be. A lot of the drills I do are games; i try to beat the score I had last time. I am more engaged in and enthusiastic about practice than I used to be. And most importantly, I am enjoying golf more than I have in a long time.

 

I'm 60 years old if that makes a difference to anyone.

 

That's pretty damn impressive.

[isaacbm]

There's been a fair amount of discussion on the real reason why golfers don't get better with practice, coupled with many references to guys just going out to hit 1-2 large buckets at the range.

 

However, the entire premise of this discussion may be based on invalid assumptions, therefore leading to incorrect conclusions. Perhaps they don't really want to get to X HDCP (or even carry a cap at all). They don't care to.

 

A fair amount of guys raking and pounding on the range might not place the same value on maximum improvement as the lion share of folks on this site have.

 

Consider the gents that just go out and bang away at Drivers b/c afterwards they feel better mentally and physically. Hitting a $12 large bucket at the range is a release from the stresses of the day-to-day rat race. Banging Driver is an outlet, and a $12 large bucket is cheaper (and a better outlet for them) than bellying up to the bar at Happy Hour and sitting for a few hours.

 

I bring this up b/c it's universally thought (on this site) that the guys that are pounding Driver for a 1-2 Large buckets are doing something wrong, when in reality they might just be doing exactly what they want to be doing, based on their personal value system.

 

Thank you!

 

Exactly. The range is often my happy place where I picture annoying customers faces

On the ball as I wack them out of my consciousness. A lot of the time I just go to the range has a meditation. Not in the least working on my game .

[FourTops]

It's not surprising that everyone has their own perception of how to learn golf. But it's not just golf. How many folks started playing the piano or guitar and quit? I contend to play the piano or guitar at a high-level is certainly as hard as top-level golf in their own ways. Instead of swinging something to hit something....fingers and wrists are chasing notes while the brain must read notes in milliseconds. But it's funny how folks quit those instruments for being "too hard"...but stick with golf?...at least in terms of learning.

 

In golf, one can hit several great shots during a round, shot's the pros hit on TV. As such, they accomplished something pro's do at a very high-level, and since they did it once, they should be able to do it again. But....the last "fix" they made in their mind....just prior to the great shot is ingrained in their brain...which leads to the tiresome claim "I think I've finally figured out golf". The problem is what they "thought" before the shot had nothing to do with the shot. And hence, the never-ending quest to pursue the wrong swing "fix".

 

In comparison to piano or guitar, there's no suddenly playing Beethoven's 5th Symphony, or Eddie Van Halen's Eruption....it's impossible. As such, reality quickly sets in in for piano and guitar. But in golf reality doesn't set-in....in fact it's the opposite....they CAN achieve excellence if they just find the right recipe. My point is there's no way around incremental learning for the piano or guitar to play at an advanced level which leads to either A) grind it out and learn, or B) quit. To that extent, I have yet to see a "play improvement" piano or guitar.

 

I've known guys who've played golf for over 30 years. They make year-after-year affirmations that they've "fixed their swing"...but....it's the same swing. In their mind their swing is totally different. This tells me there's no Earthly way for anyone to possibly come up with a learning technique that suits everyone other than themselves...and even then it's hard. There's emotional elements, unique bodily advantages and disadvantages, fear of failure, conditions, perceptions, etc.

 

It's a great thread though....who knows, maybe some will come up with the Holy Grail of learning golf.

[FourTops]

I'm not sure about meta-awareness and golf....but at the same time I'm not poo-pooing it either because I'm not sure if I engaged in this myself....I just didn't know the term.

 

When I swing....in my mind I see Couple's swing and tempo. It's my ONLY thought...there's no "do this...do that" once I setup. The reason I use Couples as my example is because my swing is very close in GENERAL to his...less hip turn to the top...big shoulder turn, etc. But swinging like Couple's is not the entire point....my point is I envision how I would view myself if I was "watching me swinging like Couples".....then create the movement that I believe fulfills that image.

 

I don't know....maybe too much Tequila...but I really subscribe to image-based learning vs. grinding on mechanical positions. I have mechanical positions too...I just don't think about them beyond watching a movie in my head.

 

See, here's the thing. People's brains/minds really do work differently and in a lot of different ways. What works for you isn't universal and what works for me isn't universal. Even with research that describes some basic notions, there is still a ton of individual variance within that general framework - which may predict large scale trends but not any one individual actuality.

 

Except... too much Tequilla. Everyone who's done that knows what it is.

 

Here's my thing....I used to work mechanical positions....but I found my mind wandered-off after about 5 seconds. To make my point...how many times do folks say "I really have to check my alignment next time"....then step up to the next shot and completely forget to check their alignment? It's not just alignment...it can be anything. My point is the instructional side of the brain became....for me....exhausting. It's simply too over-bearing, mentally, to consistently think about "positions". So that's why I run a "movie" in my head and just try to replicate the movie.

 

Let's face it...anyone can slowly emulate Couple's swing....or most other pro's....and what I mean by that is folks could...with an hour of effort...."slowly" re-create each position fairly accurately. But.....what happens when all those positions are attempted to be copied in a full-swing? POOF....gone. Why is that?

 

Acknowledging that your mind wandered off after 5 Seconds and then focusing on something external like Couples swing is Meta-awareness. Cool.

 

A movie is much easier to "watch" than an instructional video. My 2 cents...plus another 20 cents given my above posts..

[oikos1]

There's been a fair amount of discussion on the real reason why golfers don't get better with practice, coupled with many references to guys just going out to hit 1-2 large buckets at the range.

 

However, the entire premise of this discussion may be based on invalid assumptions, therefore leading to incorrect conclusions. Perhaps they don't really want to get to X HDCP (or even carry a cap at all). They don't care to.

 

A fair amount of guys raking and pounding on the range might not place the same value on maximum improvement as the lion share of folks on this site have.

 

Consider the gents that just go out and bang away at Drivers b/c afterwards they feel better mentally and physically. Hitting a $12 large bucket at the range is a release from the stresses of the day-to-day rat race. Banging Driver is an outlet, and a $12 large bucket is cheaper (and a better outlet for them) than bellying up to the bar at Happy Hour and sitting for a few hours.

 

I bring this up b/c it's universally thought (on this site) that the guys that are pounding Driver for a 1-2 Large buckets are doing something wrong, when in reality they might just be doing exactly what they want to be doing, based on their personal value system.

 

Thank you!

 

Exactly. The range is often my happy place where I picture annoying customers faces

On the ball as I wack them out of my consciousness. A lot of the time I just go to the range has a meditation. Not in the least working on my game .

 

That's a great perspective, isaacbm. What we want doesn't always jive with what others think we should want, and what we see isn't always what we think. Which also highlights your avi photo.

 

It looks like that shaolin monk is a bad a**, but in reality, no. He would be a bad a** though if someone else was unencumbered and doing the drilling,

 

He would also be dead.

[wmblake2000]

Haha. Just call me Mr. Full-of-crap Dude.

 

Ok, so I really am working hard at path. I can make a pretty good swing in a controlled setting (the range), but it stresses the hell outta my 66 year old and stiff even after 1+ years of regular stretching. But on the course, ugh.

 

I played 18 today. (Yay, So Cal weather!). First 9, trying to replicate the range. Ugh. Double ugh.

 

Then I remembered this very esoteric discussion I had with Jim W and others about stretching and the golf swing where I decided not to try to make a 'good swing' but just trust. Like letting a stretch happen vs force it.

 

Back 9, one goal: see the shot, feel it happen in my imagination, really let speed happen. No trying to get to new, unfamiliar difficult positions - whatever swing I had, I had.

 

Played the best I have in months. I don't think this is the blind squirrel thing. It's what Obee and 3 Jack Par and Shutssteepstuck (all scratch, competitive golfers) say here or to me in person. None of these guys practice much, and for the same reason. Just hit the fugging ball and forget the technical stuff. Rhythm, tempo, fluidity matter a helluva lot. Imagine a good shot, believe/trust and let it happen. Whatever skill I have, it's maximized not by technical thoughts....

 

So, here's my net from this. I still want to practice the technical stuff, with feedback. But playing is a different beast. It's almost like to play well, I want to forget all I was doing at the range and switch into a 180% different mindset.

[alfriday]

I still want to practice the technical stuff, with feedback. But playing is a different beast. It's almost like to play well, I want to forget all I was doing at the range and switch into a 180% different mindset.

 

Have you ever heard the axiom, "Practice like you play?"

 

You can still work on technical stuff, but a range session should primarily be game-like if you want to improve. Visualizing the shot, letting go, etc. works for you on the course. Start practicing that on the range and incorporate it into your work.

 

Read the book, "Every Shot Must Have a Purpose."

 

https://www.amazon.com/Every-Shot-Purpose-EVERY-Hardcover/dp/B00QN52P2C/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1542424807&sr=8-6&keywords=every+shot+must+have+a+purpose

 

From your posts in this thread, I think think you will find it enlightening.

 

(There is a Kindle version that is cheaper than the print.)

[bladehunter]

This is in response to Obee. My browse won't let me quote the prior comments for some reason.

 

I don't post much as I have a wife and 4 kids at home but I read some threads while sitting at soccer practice or over lunch, etc. You post a fair amount and to me, the predominate tone of your posts seem to be that you just need to play golf or work on your mental game or now your meta awareness. I don't hit it very far and look at how I compete against all the long ball hitters. You can do the same! Just own the uniqueness to your swing and go!

 

There is absolutely a place for that. But that can do harm to the guys that need to address other technical issues before they can just go play in competitions and not get DFL. It's good to see you say you don't think everyone can become their best on their own. That's not what I take away from most of your posts and neither do the other guys on here that I know

 

Most posters here asking for help are a long way off from being a traveling, tournament playing scratch. They need help with their technique whether that be long game or short game.

 

yes I play tournaments and am in the "have a coach" group.

 

Entirely off base. And no. The idea that the best in the world owe their success to a coach is nuts. People have had and learned from mentors since the game was invented. Paying a coach doesn’t make the info better. All Obee is doing is offering the same service for free.

Good grief. Nobodies talking about turning 12s into +2s for Pete’s sake.

[oikos1]

This is in response to Obee. My browse won't let me quote the prior comments for some reason.

 

I don't post much as I have a wife and 4 kids at home but I read some threads while sitting at soccer practice or over lunch, etc. You post a fair amount and to me, the predominate tone of your posts seem to be that you just need to play golf or work on your mental game or now your meta awareness. I don't hit it very far and look at how I compete against all the long ball hitters. You can do the same! Just own the uniqueness to your swing and go!

 

There is absolutely a place for that. But that can do harm to the guys that need to address other technical issues before they can just go play in competitions and not get DFL. It's good to see you say you don't think everyone can become their best on their own. That's not what I take away from most of your posts and neither do the other guys on here that I know

 

Most posters here asking for help are a long way off from being a traveling, tournament playing scratch. They need help with their technique whether that be long game or short game.

 

yes I play tournaments and am in the "have a coach" group.

 

Entirely off base. And no. The idea that the best in the world owe their success to a coach is nuts. People have had and learned from mentors since the game was invented. Paying a coach doesn't make the info better. All Obee is doing is offering the same service for free.

Good grief. Nobodies talking about turning 12s into +2s for Pete's sake.

 

Huh? Where did the idea that the best in the world owe their success to a coach come from? And just for arguments sake, who are those that are considered the best in the world that don't have/have had a coach?

[wmblake2000]

I still want to practice the technical stuff, with feedback. But playing is a different beast. It's almost like to play well, I want to forget all I was doing at the range and switch into a 180% different mindset.

 

Have you ever heard the axiom, "Practice like you play?"

 

You can still work on technical stuff, but a range session should primarily be game-like if you want to improve. Visualizing the shot, letting go, etc. works for you on the course. Start practicing that on the range and incorporate it into your work.

 

Read the book, "Every Shot Must Have a Purpose."

 

https://www.amazon.c... have a purpose

 

From your posts in this thread, I think think you will find it enlightening.

 

(There is a Kindle version that is cheaper than the print.)

 

I've read it, but it's been a while. Maybe it's worth re-reading, thx for the prompt. I liked it first time through, but I am a better golfer now and maybe it will have new meaning for me.

 

I agree with the 'practice like you play' - at least in theory. The one thing is, I am pretty close to owning 'my swing.' Part of this comes from a lot of trial and error and after a lot of great help from Monte steering me in a sensible direction. After all of this, I have concluded where the 'swing your swing' really does come into play is, any person's body really defines his swing. How tall, how long arms are, how flexible, how strong, etc. For example, I can only get the club shallowed a certain amount without really forcing it. And you can't play golf forcing a position. Now, I stretch pretty much every day, so maybe this will change. But for now, trying to get real shallowed on the course is a guaranteed losing proposition. I have to play the swing I can get to without a lot of deliberate effort and strain. This doesn't mean I want to quit trying to get more on plane in practice, but I can, in fact, score in the mid 70's from 6500 yards with the swing I have and that's ok with me.

 

Maybe the whole point, for me anyway, is I used to practice a LOT and play a little. Time... but now I am playing much more mainly to shift from 'practice mind set' to 'scoring mind set.; I'm still not totally sure what this 'practice like you play' means to me, but I think it has to be about creating the mindset of a successful shot.

 

When I play the best, I can see the shot, and feel the swing - all with a sense of confidence and freedom. This is not some mystical 'zone' but it is also not something I can rote force into being my mindset. This must be why people rave about the preshot routine. It's a ritual to help get them into the right mental/emotional place. I think above all other things, I want to do what I can to encourage this mindset.

 

And this is probably what those people who rail against people like me who can get pretty technical/mechanical are trying to get at. Golf is best played from a certain feeling of simple thinking and a lot of trust.

[alfriday]

It's interesting how certain books or lessons resonate at different times. Awhile ago I read "The Practice Manual" by Adam Young. It had been recommended to me by several people. I found parts of it interesting, but most of it was a slog. I found myself skimming through the theory parts to get to the drills and "practical" parts of the book. I reread it a year or so later and found it fascinating. I just wasn't ready for it the first time I read it.

 

"Every Shot Must Have a Purpose" was similar. I read it. It made some sense to me and I incorporated a few of the ideas into my practice. When I reread it later, I got more out of it. It is one of those books I now reread every winter.

[wmblake2000]

It's interesting how certain books or lessons resonate at different times. Awhile ago I read "The Practice Manual" by Adam Young. It had been recommended to me by several people. I found parts of it interesting, but most of it was a slog. I found myself skimming through the theory parts to get to the drills and "practical" parts of the book. I reread it a year or so later and found it fascinating. I just wasn't ready for it the first time I read it.

 

"Every Shot Must Have a Purpose" was similar. I read it. It made some sense to me and I incorporated a few of the ideas into my practice. When I reread it later, I got more out of it. It is one of those books I now reread every winter.

 

Re-read every winter? That’s high praise for a book!

[Atrayn]

So this is for all those that think you can't practice indoors and get much out of it and technique isn't very important. Sorry the video isn't better but I was experimenting with my GoPro. Today I went to the dome for an hour. I started out with some various little pitch shots to various intermediate targets. I hit a few full shots with a PW and a 3 iron. I hit about 8 drivers and then just worked with my PW. In this video, I'm hitting soft cuts with a PW about 85 yards into a right pin on concrete from mats using range balls. These are landing soft and staying pretty near the flag with maybe a 5 yard fade. I was working fades to the right flag and draws to the left.

 

I'm aligned a bit left, opening the face and just holding off the release

https://vimeo.com/user91851109/review/301407308/5251620c99

[Conner Golf]

GOD ALMIGHTY...…. I am back, will try to keep it short. This is another attempt to show how the precision of math can help in the learning process in golf . From the neutral (no turn) position, our right arm can turn exactly 90 degrees clockwise to it's stop, can turn no more. At the top of our straight plane back swing our right arm stays at a zero turn (buckles up from the elbow). In the down swing our right arm turns to it's 90 degree stop(elbow in), then back to zero for contact. This kind of mathematical knowledge can be found in every motion of the golf swing. I am not trying to say we need to do addition out on the coarse. But using it to learn more precisely the positions and turns we want to make in creating our shots.

,

[naval2006]

Probably if you’re reading this thread you have a hard time learning the game. There’s so much info and data and most ams can’t tell what works and what doesn’t, so you pick the wrong data and work unsupervised and you usually feel frustrated about the outcome.

 

I’ve always noticed how kids learn. It’s a fine observation that a young person learns fast and they naturally develop a game. Now kids who have a ton of golf game have been through the scrutiny of a teacher for a few years and they all listen to the teacher as a prophet speaking, they don’t question much but they try to do as told until they achieve it and there’s most often a long term relationship with the instructor. This type of relationship plus knowledge of the game allows the student to also suggest or try out with the instructor in control.

 

The ultimate fact is golf learning is a long process, something awful for most beginners and intermediate players, there’s a lot of snake oil in the learn the easy or fast way thing you see on the web, plus the thousands of golfers that try this out today and try that out next week. Just for the record: when you see a veteran better player you’ll notice that they never attempt to change swing method or the confidence club or the bread and butter chip. In the end golf is about repeating what you do well over and over without anyone contaminating it, and when you’re not playing ok go back to your basics. Even though it’s always easier to turn to the YouTube gurus in search of an instant cure when you’re away from your fundamentals.

[bladehunter]

This is in response to Obee. My browse won't let me quote the prior comments for some reason.

 

I don't post much as I have a wife and 4 kids at home but I read some threads while sitting at soccer practice or over lunch, etc. You post a fair amount and to me, the predominate tone of your posts seem to be that you just need to play golf or work on your mental game or now your meta awareness. I don't hit it very far and look at how I compete against all the long ball hitters. You can do the same! Just own the uniqueness to your swing and go!

 

There is absolutely a place for that. But that can do harm to the guys that need to address other technical issues before they can just go play in competitions and not get DFL. It's good to see you say you don't think everyone can become their best on their own. That's not what I take away from most of your posts and neither do the other guys on here that I know

 

Most posters here asking for help are a long way off from being a traveling, tournament playing scratch. They need help with their technique whether that be long game or short game.

 

yes I play tournaments and am in the "have a coach" group.

 

Entirely off base. And no. The idea that the best in the world owe their success to a coach is nuts. People have had and learned from mentors since the game was invented. Paying a coach doesn't make the info better. All Obee is doing is offering the same service for free.

Good grief. Nobodies talking about turning 12s into +2s for Pete's sake.

 

Huh? Where did the idea that the best in the world owe their success to a coach come from? And just for arguments sake, who are those that are considered the best in the world that don't have/have had a coach?

 

Was just an exaggerated point to show a coach isn’t a must. Especially at the am level.

 

The game is made too difficult by the idea that we must have our hands held 24/7.

[airjammer]

Brendon DeVore! Yes, I know seeking out different ideas and instruction is what his channel is all about.

 

How he practices is a case study on why a most golfers don’t get better...Something different every session it seems. Also his swing has barely changed over the years for this exact reason