2019 And The Pin Is In

[Mr. Bean]

You (apparently) miss the point.

 

To antip's "All my earlier comments relating to marker were arguing that the marker does not have a role different from everyone else in the field in the shared responsibility of everyone playing by the rules." you snarkily commented "So... the marker DOES have a different role 'from everyone else in the field', right..?" as if antip had ONLY written the first part. IMO trying to "get over" on him. But he DID qualify his remark.

 

In American English the rest of the sentence counts.

 

No, it is you who missed the point, but I am just too tired to explain it to you.

 

I can write this post and the rest of the Rule in five (5) different languages and I bet you would only understand only one of them. So I guess at this point you should stop talking about languages and understanding them as you are way behind me in that respect.

[GeorgeHWB]

I didn't see any of this, but a friend who likes to watch all the tournament golf on cable TV here was highly incensed by the PM behaviour yesterday evening.

 

Why? They had a very polite discussion and Phil agreed with Paul. Why would your friend be "highly incensed"?

I don't think you're allowed to use the words"mildly irritated" on the internet.

 

I laughed out loud at this. Literally.

 

Post of the month!

[antip]

Interesting conversation, I've worked with referees who make a point in telling junior players they can't run off to the next tee without watching the player they are marking for finish.

 

It does seem to me the intent of a marker is somewhat pointless if a player can just dictate his/her score(s) to another player........although for various reasons this is what often happens.

All my earlier comments relating to marker were arguing that the marker does not have a role different from everyone else in the field in the shared responsibility of everyone playing by the rules. The marker is not a judge or jury on the rules but they should be bringing any concerns they have to the player or to the Committee.

 

I think everyone in the role of marker should be scrupulously following the requirements of R3.3, which means filling in the player's card along the way and confirming scores after each hole and so on as the rule indicates.

 

So... the marker DOES have a different role 'from everyone else in the field', right..?

Right, and at no point have I suggested otherwise. I went down this 'what does a marker have to do' road when you earlier suggested that a player could not tee off until the marker got there. That sparked my observation that such understanding is a complete misunderstanding and overstatement of the role of the marker. The marker's unique role is writing down a player's acore and checking it with him and subsequently certifying a completed card. The marker does not have a different role than anyone else in a stroke play field in correctly applying the rules. Every player in the field has an equivalent obligation to raise any rules breaches they see with the player or the Committee and risks DQ if they fail to do so. This is 20.1c(2), the old D33-7/9, and one of the most breached rules in the book.

[nsxguy]

You (apparently) miss the point.

 

To antip's "All my earlier comments relating to marker were arguing that the marker does not have a role different from everyone else in the field in the shared responsibility of everyone playing by the rules." you snarkily commented "So... the marker DOES have a different role 'from everyone else in the field', right..?" as if antip had ONLY written the first part. IMO trying to "get over" on him. But he DID qualify his remark.

 

In American English the rest of the sentence counts.

 

No, it is you who missed the point, but I am just too tired to explain it to you.

 

I can write this post and the rest of the Rule in five (5) different languages and I bet you would only understand only one of them. So I guess at this point you should stop talking about languages and understanding them as you are way behind me in that respect.

 

:cheesy:

 

Well now, aren't you just too cool for school ?!?!?!

 

The old "I'm smarter than you but I'm not telling you why" defense. :rolleyes:

 

Good one !!! :good:

[Deuce78]

I have played a couple times this year and the pin in or out is a distraction. I want it in for this putt, player wants it out, blah blah blah. Distraction. Pick one USGA. Why? Terrible decision. There was nothing wrong with the rules before! Its golf! The rules made it so. Now it's a circus. Rant over....

[antip]

I have played a couple times this year and the pin in or out is a distraction. I want it in for this putt, player wants it out, blah blah blah. Distraction. Pick one USGA. Why? Terrible decision. There was nothing wrong with the rules before! Its golf! The rules made it so. Now it's a circus. Rant over....

I understand your view. I respect your view. And I agree there was nothing "wrong" with the old world.

 

But I think the new world is better, much better. First, just on the philosophical level, if offers more choice and less regulatory imposts on the customer - less "you have to do it this way, because I said so" and more "you choose (just be responsible/intelligent in the process)". I would much rather live in that latter world than the former. More individual freedom to define my own choice, and I find that liberating. In fact, it defines the world I would rather live in.

 

And at the practical level, in my area it is shortening competition times as people get used to it and get efficient at making and airing their choice so there is very little by way of laborious swapping from in to out and vice versa. Far from it, when combined with Ready Golf being intelligently applied on the putting green also, the difference is quite remarkable, everyone is getting on with it in a way that could not occur before - so time on the golf course is more golf and less time standing around on the putting green resisting the forces of gravity. I stress, this is my club competition level experience, and this is the way the vast majority of our handicap relevant golf is played in this country. I think the comparative advantage of the new world is significantly less in informal/social golf (it was already happening - as many contributors here have attested) and I also suggest it is significantly less in the pay for play brigade - the pro tours, because those girls and boys are always going to scrutinize the greens within an inch of their lives.

 

There definitely is a bit of transition involved in adapting the old wiring for putting green behaviour. So my humble suggestion is give it a serious go at making it work in your playing group(s) and then reassess what you think of it a bit further down the track. There's nothing to lose, and in my experience so far (we don't have to shut down the golf for the season), there are valuable rewards to be had.

[KevCarter]

I understand your view. I respect your view. And I agree there was nothing "wrong" with the old world.

 

But I think the new world is better, much better. First, just on the philosophical level, if offers more choice and less regulatory imposts on the customer - less "you have to do it this way, because I said so" and more "you choose (just be responsible/intelligent in the process)". I would much rather live in that latter world than the former. More individual freedom to define my own choice, and I find that liberating. In fact, it defines the world I would rather live in.

 

And at the practical level, in my area it is shortening competition times as people get used to it and get efficient at making and airing their choice so there is very little by way of laborious swapping from in to out and vice versa. Far from it, when combined with Ready Golf being intelligently applied on the putting green also, the difference is quite remarkable, everyone is getting on with it in a way that could not occur before - so time on the golf course is more golf and less time standing around on the putting green resisting the forces of gravity. I stress, this is my club competition level experience, and this is the way the vast majority of our handicap relevant golf is played in this country. I think the comparative advantage of the new world is significantly less in informal/social golf (it was already happening - as many contributors here have attested) and I also suggest it is significantly less in the pay for play brigade - the pro tours, because those girls and boys are always going to scrutinize the greens within an inch of their lives.

 

There definitely is a bit of transition involved in adapting the old wiring for putting green behaviour. So my humble suggestion is give it a serious go at making it work in your playing group(s) and then reassess what you think of it a bit further down the track. There's nothing to lose, and in my experience so far (we don't have to shut down the golf for the season), there are valuable rewards to be had.

 

What a great post. :read:

[swizbeatz]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn’t be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I’m still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

[Shilgy]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn’t be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I’m still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

[antip]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

Exactly. If people are keen to go their own way, different from all around them, then they will do that.

 

What I'm finding in practice is even with folk not used to playing with each other (I'm not one that looks for the same playing partners most of the time) they get fairly attuned to each other's preferences after a few holes and many people (me included) are quite indifferent to flag in or out inside 2 or 3 yards - so I'm happy to go with whatever state the flagstick is in for the closer putts. Of course, that is a generalization, if the wind is flapping, shadows are dancing, hole not cut right, slope is in play, then it is a 'custom' assessment process. And I'm finding you get efficient at all this quickly, taking advantage of the newly flexible rule.

[swizbeatz]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

 

 

Similar I guess but not really close at all to how often it will happen if someone wants it back in for every putt.

[Shilgy]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

 

 

Similar I guess but not really close at all to how often it will happen if someone wants it back in for every putt.

What you will likely find is that many players will not care one way or the other. As Antip just mentioned unless the flag is whipping hard from wind I'm good with the flagstick either in or out. As time goes by and they get used to it I believe more will be good with it in.

[nsxguy]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

 

 

Similar I guess but not really close at all to how often it will happen if someone wants it back in for every putt.

What you will likely find is that many players will not care one way or the other. As Antip just mentioned unless the flag is whipping hard from wind I'm good with the flagstick either in or out. As time goes by and they get used to it I believe more will be good with it in.

 

It's called "peer pressure" I believe. :D

[jmkenn0]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

 

 

Similar I guess but not really close at all to how often it will happen if someone wants it back in for every putt.

 

We tried it one "warm" day in January. I announced I was putting with it in at all times, and you know what I did? I just held the flag until it was my time to putt, then walked over and put it in. Then I took it out and held it for the next person if they didn't want it, until it was my time to putt again. You aren't going to believe this,but sometimes after your first putt, the ball goes in the hole! Or at least close enough to make taking the pin out basically a passing nuisance at best!

[rogolf]

It's interesting - one of the suggestions to the ruling bodies was to have the flagstick and cup as one unit whereby the flagstick could not be removed. Another was to have no penalty for hitting the flagstick unless the ball was putted from within the flagstick length from the hole.

[jmkenn0]

It's interesting - one of the suggestions to the ruling bodies was to have the flagstick and cup as one unit whereby the flagstick could not be removed. Another was to have no penalty for hitting the flagstick unless the ball was within the flagstick length from the hole.

 

Wow, that second one.....

[rogolf]

It's interesting - one of the suggestions to the ruling bodies was to have the flagstick and cup as one unit whereby the flagstick could not be removed. Another was to have no penalty for hitting the flagstick unless the ball was within the flagstick length from the hole.

 

Wow, that second one.....

Note that I edited that post...

[jmkenn0]

It's interesting - one of the suggestions to the ruling bodies was to have the flagstick and cup as one unit whereby the flagstick could not be removed. Another was to have no penalty for hitting the flagstick unless the ball was within the flagstick length from the hole.

 

Wow, that second one.....

Note that I edited that post...

 

Yeah, but still, can you imagine the arguments around whether or not a ball is within the flagstick? Is it to the front of the ball, and then you have people measuring, messing up the hole.

[Augster]

In My suggestions to the USGA, leaving the stick in full time as a must was one of them. Saves time. Simplifies everything.

[Mr. Bean]

In My suggestions to the USGA, leaving the stick in full time as a must was one of them. Saves time. Simplifies everything.

 

Especially when wind is pushing the stick towards you so a ball cannot fit between the stick and the hole...

 

Well, I guess if the stick was not supposed to be moved it could be quite sturdy and would not bend that heavily.

[sui generis]

It's interesting - one of the suggestions to the ruling bodies was to have the flagstick and cup as one unit whereby the flagstick could not be removed. Another was to have no penalty for hitting the flagstick unless the ball was putted from within the flagstick length from the hole.

 

I believe the correct choice was made for Rule 13. :)

[heatedwire]

My favourite part of this new rule is that most people I usually play with don't really care if it's in or out. If somebody we are playing with insists on taking it out, that's fine...just don't expect me to go out of my way to do it for you (if i'm near by I might) .

 

I kind of feel sorry for people who absolutely can't handle having it in though. They always seem so rushed when everyone else has putt out and then finally somebody removes the flag so that they are comfortable putting. Ready golf after all haha

[davep043]

My favourite part of this new rule is that most people I usually play with don't really care if it's in or out. If somebody we are playing with insists on taking it out, that's fine...just don't expect me to go out of my way to do it for you (if i'm near by I might) .

 

I kind of feel sorry for people who absolutely can't handle having it in though. They always seem so rushed when everyone else has putt out and then finally somebody removes the flag so that they are comfortable putting. Ready golf after all haha

Ah yes, modern good manners. I'll help you out in any way I can, as long as it takes no actual effort.

[Roadking2003]

My favourite part of this new rule is that most people I usually play with don't really care if it's in or out. If somebody we are playing with insists on taking it out, that's fine...just don't expect me to go out of my way to do it for you (if i'm near by I might) .

 

I kind of feel sorry for people who absolutely can't handle having it in though. They always seem so rushed when everyone else has putt out and then finally somebody removes the flag so that they are comfortable putting. Ready golf after all haha

 

Same here. Our group is pretty flexible. And the new rule has sped up play quite a bit.

[swizbeatz]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

 

 

Similar I guess but not really close at all to how often it will happen if someone wants it back in for every putt.

 

We tried it one "warm" day in January. I announced I was putting with it in at all times, and you know what I did? I just held the flag until it was my time to putt, then walked over and put it in. Then I took it out and held it for the next person if they didn't want it, until it was my time to putt again. You aren't going to believe this,but sometimes after your first putt, the ball goes in the hole! Or at least close enough to make taking the pin out basically a passing nuisance at best!

 

I can totally see how standing by the hole, putting the flag back in, then walking to your putt saves time! Thanks so much for enlightening me on how putting works!

 

Seriously though, I don’t care about your 20 handicapper 4 some. My comment was specifically about tournaments where people have a right to putt however they prefer. My first post you quoted explained I liked it during a casual round.

[sui generis]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

 

 

Similar I guess but not really close at all to how often it will happen if someone wants it back in for every putt.

 

We tried it one "warm" day in January. I announced I was putting with it in at all times, and you know what I did? I just held the flag until it was my time to putt, then walked over and put it in. Then I took it out and held it for the next person if they didn't want it, until it was my time to putt again. You aren't going to believe this,but sometimes after your first putt, the ball goes in the hole! Or at least close enough to make taking the pin out basically a passing nuisance at best!

 

I can totally see how standing by the hole, putting the flag back in, then walking to your putt saves time! Thanks so much for enlightening me on how putting works!

 

Seriously though, I don't care about your 20 handicapper 4 some. My comment was specifically about tournaments where people have a right to putt however they prefer. My first post you quoted explained I liked it during a casual round.

 

Yeah, you're right, end of the world! Look, even TV golf has been taken off the air because no one can figure out what to do with the flagstick. :swoon:

[swizbeatz]

Can you show me where I said it’s the end of the world? Also please explain how pga golf with caddies is an apples to apples comparison to what I’m talking about?

[jmkenn0]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

 

 

Similar I guess but not really close at all to how often it will happen if someone wants it back in for every putt.

 

We tried it one "warm" day in January. I announced I was putting with it in at all times, and you know what I did? I just held the flag until it was my time to putt, then walked over and put it in. Then I took it out and held it for the next person if they didn't want it, until it was my time to putt again. You aren't going to believe this,but sometimes after your first putt, the ball goes in the hole! Or at least close enough to make taking the pin out basically a passing nuisance at best!

 

I can totally see how standing by the hole, putting the flag back in, then walking to your putt saves time! Thanks so much for enlightening me on how putting works!

 

Seriously though, I don't care about your 20 handicapper 4 some. My comment was specifically about tournaments where people have a right to putt however they prefer. My first post you quoted explained I liked it during a casual round.

 

Well if you are putting from 40 feet away each time, you probably shouldn't be playing in a tournament? Especially in tournaments the pace of play is glacial on the greens, hell you could probably sew a new flag while waiting for everyone else to putt.

[swizbeatz]

Why are you so offended that my opinion is there is a chance it is slightly annoying during tournament rounds depending on who I’m paired with? Doesn’t seem like an outlandish statement worthy of attempted ridicule twice now.

 

 

[Shilgy]

Got south and putted with the flag in for the first time. I liked it for the most part, especially when a couple people were chipping and I was 30-40 feet short where I wouldn't be walking past the flag. We were able to putt when ready and we pulled it when everyone was within 5-10 feet.

 

I'm still curious what it will be like in tournaments this summer when someone wants it in all the time and another guy wants it out.

It will be similar to before when the guy away wanted it tended, next wanted it out, next wanted it tended....

 

 

Similar I guess but not really close at all to how often it will happen if someone wants it back in for every putt.

What you will likely find is that many players will not care one way or the other. As Antip just mentioned unless the flag is whipping hard from wind I'm good with the flagstick either in or out. As time goes by and they get used to it I believe more will be good with it in.

 

It's called "peer pressure" I believe. :D

Not at all in my experience. Most of us (ahem) older golfers were used to having the flagstick out when putting. When the rule was first announced I was positive-and likely even posted as such-that I would have the flag out within 25 feet or so. In just a couple months of playing it has become ordinary enough that I leave it in on most putts.

 

As for those that believe it slows play...as earlier posted, so did having one player have it out, next tended rinse and repeat.