2019 And The Pin Is In

[dormie1360]

Actually I agree with the change.

 

Today's round was a lot smoother. Generally if everyones putt is more than 20 feet away the pin was left in and who ever was closest would remove the pin for the 2nd putt. This probably save some time as before someone wound have to tend then go back and putt.

 

I do forsee some potential problems for money games and tournaments like club championships. What happens if the ball hits the pin and stays out and the putter says hey I wanted the pin out. Or someone pulls the pin and the ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out and the putter says hey I never ask to have the pin out. At least under the previous rules the person tending or near the pin knew they had to pull it out. Now better communication is needed.

 

 

When deciding issues like this the rules are pretty clear, the onus is on the player making the stroke. If the flag is in when he made the stroke, the rules say he wanted it in. If it's not in when he made the stroke, then that means he wanted it out. If he allows a person to stand right next to the flagstick, hold it just out, etc. that means he wanted it attended.

[nsxguy]

And this'll be a topic for a while.

 

Today I played a scramble. We had a hole where we're off the green by about 6 feet and then downhill, about 6 inches of break right to left and about 10 to the flag. First guy hits his putt way too hard. It hits the pin just left of center and ends up a foot to the left. No chance that ball is with 9 or 10 feet of the flag if it doesn't hit the pin.

 

I decide to chip it, hit it just where I wanted and it's tracking and it hits the pin in roughly the same spot as the previous guy and just ends up on the left (downhill) lip.

 

Would mine have gone in the left center ? I think it probably would have but who knows ?

 

I mentioned a week or 2 ago about noticing that hitting the downhill side of a breaking putt seemed to encourage the flagstick to kick the ball out of the hole whereas hitting the high side of the stick might help keeping it in. Some pinhead thought I was smoking something but the more I mess around with this thing the more I think I'm right.

 

But I'll stick with the pin in most of the time. I still think it'll help more than hurt. I expect the only time I'll take it out if it's leaning towards me.

[Golfnuck]

Actually I agree with the change.

 

Today's round was a lot smoother. Generally if everyones putt is more than 20 feet away the pin was left in and who ever was closest would remove the pin for the 2nd putt. This probably save some time as before someone wound have to tend then go back and putt.

 

I do forsee some potential problems for money games and tournaments like club championships. What happens if the ball hits the pin and stays out and the putter says hey I wanted the pin out. Or someone pulls the pin and the ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out and the putter says hey I never ask to have the pin out. At least under the previous rules the person tending or near the pin knew they had to pull it out. Now better communication is needed.

 

 

When deciding issues like this the rules are pretty clear, the onus is on the player making the stroke. If the flag is in when he made the stroke, the rules say he wanted it in. If it's not in when he made the stroke, then that means he wanted it out. If he allows a person to stand right next to the flagstick, hold it just out, etc. that means he wanted it attended.

 

Agree with your assessment but what if it is done by accident.

 

My fellow golfer (we are not playing a match) hits the putt with the flag in (and intending to do so) I by instinct, race over and pull the pin out. His ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out. Oops my bad.

 

For me at least it's going to take a bit of time to erase 30 years of golf history stored in my tiny brain.

[Swisstrader98]

Played Sunday. Kept the pin in most of the time. Only complaint from our group was that it was a little more difficult to grab the ball out of the hole.

 

:)

 

OOPS - I can hear it now.

 

"I leave the pin in out of consideration of my playing partners, but I am not going to putt that 2 footer because it is too hard to get the ball out of the hole".

 

It's gonna happen.

 

dave

 

This was, and still is, my only gripe against the new flag rule. People with fat fingers or whatever reason messing with the edges of the hole. I am afraid that already by afternoon the hole is damaged more than it was by the evening last year. The good point is that nobody will try to pick the ball up with the head of their putter anymore, I would think.

 

Would be cool to have one of those mechanisms that pop the ball out when it hits the hole. Just like in home putting devices.

[dormie1360]

Actually I agree with the change.

 

Today's round was a lot smoother. Generally if everyones putt is more than 20 feet away the pin was left in and who ever was closest would remove the pin for the 2nd putt. This probably save some time as before someone wound have to tend then go back and putt.

 

I do forsee some potential problems for money games and tournaments like club championships. What happens if the ball hits the pin and stays out and the putter says hey I wanted the pin out. Or someone pulls the pin and the ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out and the putter says hey I never ask to have the pin out. At least under the previous rules the person tending or near the pin knew they had to pull it out. Now better communication is needed.

 

 

When deciding issues like this the rules are pretty clear, the onus is on the player making the stroke. If the flag is in when he made the stroke, the rules say he wanted it in. If it's not in when he made the stroke, then that means he wanted it out. If he allows a person to stand right next to the flagstick, hold it just out, etc. that means he wanted it attended.

 

Agree with your assessment but what if it is done by accident.

 

My fellow golfer (we are not playing a match) hits the putt with the flag in (and intending to do so) I by instinct, race over and pull the pin out. His ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out. Oops my bad.

 

For me at least it's going to take a bit of time to erase 30 years of golf history stored in my tiny brain.

 

Well in that case you'll get the general penalty, R13.2a(4), but on the positive side, I'm guessing you'll only make that mistake once. :blush:

[Sawgrass]

Actually I agree with the change.

 

Today's round was a lot smoother. Generally if everyones putt is more than 20 feet away the pin was left in and who ever was closest would remove the pin for the 2nd putt. This probably save some time as before someone wound have to tend then go back and putt.

 

I do forsee some potential problems for money games and tournaments like club championships. What happens if the ball hits the pin and stays out and the putter says hey I wanted the pin out. Or someone pulls the pin and the ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out and the putter says hey I never ask to have the pin out. At least under the previous rules the person tending or near the pin knew they had to pull it out. Now better communication is needed.

 

 

When deciding issues like this the rules are pretty clear, the onus is on the player making the stroke. If the flag is in when he made the stroke, the rules say he wanted it in. If it's not in when he made the stroke, then that means he wanted it out. If he allows a person to stand right next to the flagstick, hold it just out, etc. that means he wanted it attended.

 

Agree with your assessment but what if it is done by accident.

 

My fellow golfer (we are not playing a match) hits the putt with the flag in (and intending to do so) I by instinct, race over and pull the pin out. His ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out. Oops my bad.

 

For me at least it's going to take a bit of time to erase 30 years of golf history stored in my tiny brain.

 

Well in that case you'll get the general penalty, R13.2a(4), but on the positive side, I'm guessing you'll only make that mistake once. :blush:

Dormie, part of 13.2a (4) says, “ another player must not deliberately move or remove the flagstick to affect where the player’s ball in motion might come to rest.”

 

Are you certain that the incident described above qualifies as a deliberate act? I don’t see it that way.

 

 

[dormie1360]

Hmmmm, well my thinking was the act itself was intentional, obviously. The fellow player (who removed the flagstick) did not want the ball to hit the flagstick which is what the player who made the stroke did want to happen. Wouldn't not striking the flagstick affect the balls motion?

 

Also, he is taking away the player's right to have the flagstick in. Seems strange, given the rules require the flagstick to remain in the hole after the stroke, that everyone would be off the "hook" when that didn't happen.

 

Dunno, just my opinion. Edit: Do you see a penalty under another rule, or just no penalty to anyone?

 

Thread creep, I didn't care who won, but boy did the Saints get screwed.

[Circaflex]

Played a round today and pretty much everyone wanted to leave the flag in for the most part. Definitely sped things up for us. I'm not so sure on it yet, I feel like it was messing with me a tad on the mental side, but I'm sure once I play more and more leaving it in, this will no longer be an issue. I was hoping it would cause me to miss long if anything, but I p***y-footed quite a few of them today.

[antip]

Actually I agree with the change.

 

Today's round was a lot smoother. Generally if everyones putt is more than 20 feet away the pin was left in and who ever was closest would remove the pin for the 2nd putt. This probably save some time as before someone wound have to tend then go back and putt.

 

I do forsee some potential problems for money games and tournaments like club championships. What happens if the ball hits the pin and stays out and the putter says hey I wanted the pin out. Or someone pulls the pin and the ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out and the putter says hey I never ask to have the pin out. At least under the previous rules the person tending or near the pin knew they had to pull it out. Now better communication is needed.

 

 

When deciding issues like this the rules are pretty clear, the onus is on the player making the stroke. If the flag is in when he made the stroke, the rules say he wanted it in. If it's not in when he made the stroke, then that means he wanted it out. If he allows a person to stand right next to the flagstick, hold it just out, etc. that means he wanted it attended.

 

Agree with your assessment but what if it is done by accident.

 

My fellow golfer (we are not playing a match) hits the putt with the flag in (and intending to do so) I by instinct, race over and pull the pin out. His ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out. Oops my bad.

 

For me at least it's going to take a bit of time to erase 30 years of golf history stored in my tiny brain.

 

Well in that case you'll get the general penalty, R13.2a(4), but on the positive side, I'm guessing you'll only make that mistake once. :blush:

Dormie, part of 13.2a (4) says, “ another player must not deliberately move or remove the flagstick to affect where the player’s ball in motion might come to rest.”

 

Are you certain that the incident described above qualifies as a deliberate act? I don’t see it that way.

This is interesting discussion fodder because there is no explicit interpretation and there is more than one way to read that first paragraph. There is no question that lifting the flagstick was deliberate (it didn't get into his hand accidentally). But that deliberate lifting was likely motivated by muddled thinking along the lines of "I better pull the flagstick out so Fred doesn't get penalised if it hits" rather than explicitly intending to affect where the ball finishes. So I think there is a little doubt here that would merit RB clarification.

 

IMO, though, the second dot point [of 13.2a(4)] identifying when there is not a penalty is pointing to very clear reasons, implying if such reasons do not exist then it is a breach by the lifter. So my view leans towards penalty but I would really like more certainty than provided by the wording of the rule. Can a US resident ring the hotline and investigate?

 

There are also interesting implications from the last paragraph in Int 13.2a(4)/1 - this contrasts with other areas of the new rules where if you can rectify your error (kind of a "no harm, no foul" principle) then there is no penalty.

[Mr. Bean]

 

Agree with your assessment but what if it is done by accident.

 

My fellow golfer (we are not playing a match) hits the putt with the flag in (and intending to do so) I by instinct, race over and pull the pin out. His ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out. Oops my bad.

 

For me at least it's going to take a bit of time to erase 30 years of golf history stored in my tiny brain.

 

Well in that case you'll get the general penalty, R13.2a(4), but on the positive side, I'm guessing you'll only make that mistake once. :blush:

Dormie, part of 13.2a (4) says, “ another player must not deliberately move or remove the flagstick to affect where the player’s ball in motion might come to rest.”

 

Are you certain that the incident described above qualifies as a deliberate act? I don’t see it that way.

This is interesting discussion fodder because there is no explicit interpretation and there is more than one way to read that first paragraph. There is no question that lifting the flagstick was deliberate (it didn't get into his hand accidentally). But that deliberate lifting was likely motivated by muddled thinking along the lines of "I better pull the flagstick out so Fred doesn't get penalised if it hits" rather than explicitly intending to affect where the ball finishes. So I think there is a little doubt here that would merit RB clarification.

 

IMO, though, the second dot point [of 13.2a(4)] identifying when there is not a penalty is pointing to very clear reasons, implying if such reasons do not exist then it is a breach by the lifter. So my view leans towards penalty but I would really like more certainty than provided by the wording of the rule. Can a US resident ring the hotline and investigate?

 

There are also interesting implications from the last paragraph in Int 13.2a(4)/1 - this contrasts with other areas of the new rules where if you can rectify your error (kind of a "no harm, no foul" principle) then there is no penalty.

 

Shouldn't a player know the Rules..? Or may he escape a penalty by saying 'I forgot this Rule had changed' ?

[antip]

Agree with your assessment but what if it is done by accident.

 

My fellow golfer (we are not playing a match) hits the putt with the flag in (and intending to do so) I by instinct, race over and pull the pin out. His ball hits the back of the cup and jumps out. Oops my bad.

 

For me at least it's going to take a bit of time to erase 30 years of golf history stored in my tiny brain.

 

Well in that case you'll get the general penalty, R13.2a(4), but on the positive side, I'm guessing you'll only make that mistake once. :blush:

Dormie, part of 13.2a (4) says, “ another player must not deliberately move or remove the flagstick to affect where the player’s ball in motion might come to rest.”

 

Are you certain that the incident described above qualifies as a deliberate act? I don’t see it that way.

This is interesting discussion fodder because there is no explicit interpretation and there is more than one way to read that first paragraph. There is no question that lifting the flagstick was deliberate (it didn't get into his hand accidentally). But that deliberate lifting was likely motivated by muddled thinking along the lines of "I better pull the flagstick out so Fred doesn't get penalised if it hits" rather than explicitly intending to affect where the ball finishes. So I think there is a little doubt here that would merit RB clarification.

 

IMO, though, the second dot point [of 13.2a(4)] identifying when there is not a penalty is pointing to very clear reasons, implying if such reasons do not exist then it is a breach by the lifter. So my view leans towards penalty but I would really like more certainty than provided by the wording of the rule. Can a US resident ring the hotline and investigate?

 

There are also interesting implications from the last paragraph in Int 13.2a(4)/1 - this contrasts with other areas of the new rules where if you can rectify your error (kind of a "no harm, no foul" principle) then there is no penalty.

 

Shouldn't a player know the Rules..? Or may he escape a penalty by saying 'I forgot this Rule had changed' ?

Is there a point to this comment? I'm seeing no linkage to the material that went before.

[Mr. Bean]

Dormie, part of 13.2a (4) says, “ another player must not deliberately move or remove the flagstick to affect where the player’s ball in motion might come to rest.”

 

Are you certain that the incident described above qualifies as a deliberate act? I don’t see it that way.

This is interesting discussion fodder because there is no explicit interpretation and there is more than one way to read that first paragraph. There is no question that lifting the flagstick was deliberate (it didn't get into his hand accidentally). But that deliberate lifting was likely motivated by muddled thinking along the lines of "I better pull the flagstick out so Fred doesn't get penalised if it hits" rather than explicitly intending to affect where the ball finishes. So I think there is a little doubt here that would merit RB clarification.

 

IMO, though, the second dot point [of 13.2a(4)] identifying when there is not a penalty is pointing to very clear reasons, implying if such reasons do not exist then it is a breach by the lifter. So my view leans towards penalty but I would really like more certainty than provided by the wording of the rule. Can a US resident ring the hotline and investigate?

 

There are also interesting implications from the last paragraph in Int 13.2a(4)/1 - this contrasts with other areas of the new rules where if you can rectify your error (kind of a "no harm, no foul" principle) then there is no penalty.

 

Shouldn't a player know the Rules..? Or may he escape a penalty by saying 'I forgot this Rule had changed' ?

Is there a point to this comment? I'm seeing no linkage to the material that went before.

 

That was a comment to your post.

 

In the old Rules 6.1 said the player is responsible for knowing the Rules. This phrase as such has vanished from the 2019 Rules but Rule 1.3b suggests that a player is still responsible for applying them. So I started to wonder if a player may escape a penalty by 'forgetting' something.

 

In the situation at hand the player deliberately removes the pin and the question remained whether he was trying to influence the movement of the ball deliberately.

[antip]

 

That was a comment to your post.

 

In the old Rules 6.1 said the player is responsible for knowing the Rules. This phrase as such has vanished from the 2019 Rules but Rule 1.3b suggests that a player is still responsible for applying them. So I started to wonder if a player may escape a penalty by 'forgetting' something.

 

In the situation at hand the player deliberately removes the pin and the question remained whether he was trying to influence the movement of the ball deliberately.

Okay, I wasn't understanding what you were saying. I think 1.3b is a stronger statement than old 6.1. It's no longer enough to know the rules, you have to apply them.

 

The more I think about it, the more the flagstick issue we are discussing seems to be a transitional thing. That pin lifter was confused by the old wiring in his head and that is what needs to be forgotten. Hopefully, as folk play more under the new putting green rules, we will all grow through this issue and recognise that the person putting is the only one entitled to make the call about the flagstick.

[Mr. Bean]

That was a comment to your post.

 

In the old Rules 6.1 said the player is responsible for knowing the Rules. This phrase as such has vanished from the 2019 Rules but Rule 1.3b suggests that a player is still responsible for applying them. So I started to wonder if a player may escape a penalty by 'forgetting' something.

 

In the situation at hand the player deliberately removes the pin and the question remained whether he was trying to influence the movement of the ball deliberately.

Okay, I wasn't understanding what you were saying. I think 1.3b is a stronger statement than old 6.1. It's no longer enough to know the rules, you have to apply them.

 

The more I think about it, the more the flagstick issue we are discussing seems to be a transitional thing. That pin lifter was confused by the old wiring in his head and that is what needs to be forgotten. Hopefully, as folk play more under the new putting green rules, we will all grow through this issue and recognise that the person putting is the only one entitled to make the call about the flagstick.

 

But until then, is the player penalized or not?

[CheckJV]

I played my second round of the year with the new rule. This time with 3 different players and we did not announce our individual preference before we started play. One player preferred the pin out and the rest pin in. We just kind of rolled with whatever condition the pin was left in at the time. The only please put it back in was during a few downhill putts. The pin out guy putted with the pin in on several holes to speed things up. We were a happy group. We played slow because we were spraying the darn ball all over the universe! Slow for us is over 3.75 hours.

[antip]

That was a comment to your post.

 

In the old Rules 6.1 said the player is responsible for knowing the Rules. This phrase as such has vanished from the 2019 Rules but Rule 1.3b suggests that a player is still responsible for applying them. So I started to wonder if a player may escape a penalty by 'forgetting' something.

 

In the situation at hand the player deliberately removes the pin and the question remained whether he was trying to influence the movement of the ball deliberately.

Okay, I wasn't understanding what you were saying. I think 1.3b is a stronger statement than old 6.1. It's no longer enough to know the rules, you have to apply them.

 

The more I think about it, the more the flagstick issue we are discussing seems to be a transitional thing. That pin lifter was confused by the old wiring in his head and that is what needs to be forgotten. Hopefully, as folk play more under the new putting green rules, we will all grow through this issue and recognise that the person putting is the only one entitled to make the call about the flagstick.

 

But until then, is the player penalized or not?

I put my view in #129. Currently, I think penalty, but it is not cut and dried and I would like to hear an official view in that case of unbridled idiocy "I wasn't trying to affect the ball, I just thought the rules required the pin to be removed or the player could be penalised".

[Mr. Bean]

That was a comment to your post.

 

In the old Rules 6.1 said the player is responsible for knowing the Rules. This phrase as such has vanished from the 2019 Rules but Rule 1.3b suggests that a player is still responsible for applying them. So I started to wonder if a player may escape a penalty by 'forgetting' something.

 

In the situation at hand the player deliberately removes the pin and the question remained whether he was trying to influence the movement of the ball deliberately.

Okay, I wasn't understanding what you were saying. I think 1.3b is a stronger statement than old 6.1. It's no longer enough to know the rules, you have to apply them.

 

The more I think about it, the more the flagstick issue we are discussing seems to be a transitional thing. That pin lifter was confused by the old wiring in his head and that is what needs to be forgotten. Hopefully, as folk play more under the new putting green rules, we will all grow through this issue and recognise that the person putting is the only one entitled to make the call about the flagstick.

 

But until then, is the player penalized or not?

I put my view in #129. Currently, I think penalty, but it is not cut and dried and I would like to hear an official view in that case of unbridled idiocy "I wasn't trying to affect the ball, I just thought the rules required the pin to be removed or the player could be penalised".

 

To me it seems clear. Player does not know the Rules and is in breach of one of them. Cannot think of anything that would absolve him from penalty. Ignorance is not an excuse, IMO.

[Newby]

"To me it seems clear. Player does not know the Rules and is in breach of one of them. Cannot think of anything that would absolve him from penalty. Ignorance is not an excuse, IMO. "

 

An error but not an accident.

[Sawgrass]

In Golfnuck’s post #123, he describes the flagstick being illegally removed “by instinct.”

 

If two people are playing a match, and one shanks the ball causing it to shoot quickly toward his opponent, and by instinct the opponent jumps away, but this instinctive jump actually causes the ball to strike him instead of avoiding the strike, I trust that no one would penalize the opponent for deliberately deflecting the ball.

 

I don’t see that as terribly different than Golfnuck’s story. To me, parsing it out, the answer rests not on whether the act was “accidentally” but rather on whether it was “deliberate.” If I do something by instinct rather than choice, I don’t think I’m doing it deliberately, though I may be doing it somewhat “accidentally.”

[Sawgrass]

Adding to my argument, this year’s rules are very lenient regarding the flagstick. Even when the ball accidentally strikes the person attending, there’s no penalty. Isn’t this discussion simply about another kind of accident?

[Mr. Bean]

In Golfnuck's post #123, he describes the flagstick being illegally removed "by instinct."

 

If two people are playing a match, and one shanks the ball causing it to shoot quickly toward his opponent, and by instinct the opponent jumps away, but this instinctive jump actually causes the ball to strike him instead of avoiding the strike, I trust that no one would penalize the opponent for deliberately deflecting the ball.

 

I don't see that as terribly different than Golfnuck's story. To me, parsing it out, the answer rests not on whether the act was "accidentally" but rather on whether it was "deliberate." If I do something by instinct rather than choice, I don't think I'm doing it deliberately, though I may be doing it somewhat "accidentally."

 

Sawgrass, jumping to avoid a flying ball to hit you is a completely different thing than pulling a pin out when you are not allowed to.

 

Apparently you accept that a player should be exempt from a penalty if he accidentally is in breach of a Rule. Is that what you are trying to say?

[Mr. Bean]

Adding to my argument, this year’s rules are very lenient regarding the flagstick. Even when the ball accidentally strikes the person attending, there’s no penalty. Isn’t this discussion simply about another kind of accident?

 

IMO no.

 

In this case the other player deprived the player in turn from his rights to keep the pin in thus (maybe) caused that player an extra stroke. Besides lifting that pin was no accident, as has been told by some all along.

[Sawgrass]

In Golfnuck's post #123, he describes the flagstick being illegally removed "by instinct."

 

If two people are playing a match, and one shanks the ball causing it to shoot quickly toward his opponent, and by instinct the opponent jumps away, but this instinctive jump actually causes the ball to strike him instead of avoiding the strike, I trust that no one would penalize the opponent for deliberately deflecting the ball.

 

I don't see that as terribly different than Golfnuck's story. To me, parsing it out, the answer rests not on whether the act was "accidentally" but rather on whether it was "deliberate." If I do something by instinct rather than choice, I don't think I'm doing it deliberately, though I may be doing it somewhat "accidentally."

 

Sawgrass, jumping to avoid a flying ball to hit you is a completely different thing than pulling a pin out when you are not allowed to.

 

Apparently you accept that a player should be exempt from a penalty if he accidentally is in breach of a Rule. Is that what you are trying to say?

I understand that instinctively jumping away from a ball is "different" than instinctively pulling the flagstick. But it's related! By the concept of "instinct"!

 

I don't believe that a player should be exempt from a penalty if he accidentally is in breach of "a" Rule. I know for sure that a player should be exempt from a penalty if he accidentally breaches some rules, say if he accidentally leaves the flagstick in the hole while he's dutifully attending it -- for instance if the flagstick gets stuck. 13.2b (2), first bullet, comes right out and says it.

 

To me, the question of penalty is derived, in this case, most closely by 13.2b (2) second bullet: Ball deliberately deflected or stopped by person attending flagstick. There, the word "deliberate" is used. We are left to decide whether an instinctive act is a deliberate act. Further down that rule, we are directed to 11.2a, where KVC is described.

 

I'm not saying I'm sure about this, I'm saying that 20.3 forces me to consider what circumstances are most similar in the more explicit rules. Left to my own devices, with no committee or RB to consult, if I believed the player's description of his instinctive reaction, I believe I wouldn't penalize this.

 

But sure, if you accidentally bump your ball in the middle of the fairway, I'd penalize the player. ;-)

[dormie1360]

I called. The player who pulled the flagstick would not be absolved from penalty. The player's motives do not change the ruling.

[dlygrisse]

According to this you would be absolutely costing yourself strokes by pulling the pin, in every situation.

 

http://Not allowed because of spam.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/

[Sawgrass]

I called. The player who pulled the flagstick would not be absolved from penalty. The player's motives do not change the ruling.

Well, I'm now comforted to see that I'm not without a Ruling Body's consultation to decipher this. So thanks. (Unless it was your brother-in-law, the doctor or plumber, who you called.)

[Mr. Bean]

I called. The player who pulled the flagstick would not be absolved from penalty. The player's motives do not change the ruling.

 

Sorry I did not answer immediately but I had my hands full of books of Rules of Golf. Glad to have been of assistance in the end, though.

[Mr. Bean]

According to this you would be absolutely costing yourself strokes by pulling the pin, in every situation.

 

http://Not allowed because of spam.com...new-golf-rules/

 

You also must believe in all the products promising quick loss of weight...

[jmkenn0]

I think one of the other things that is missed in the analysis is really you have three scenarios 1 - ball hits pin and goes in, 2 - ball hits pin and goes out, discussed ad nauseum. The 3rd, or maybe really a subset of the second, is ball hits pin and goes out, but leaves a more reasonable put than if the pin is not there and it runs by 6 feet.

 

Also, there are way too many variables to consider testing in or out outdoors, including slope, grain, grass type, time of day, moisture, last time the grass was cut, imperfections around the hole, when the hole was cut, etc. Really the only definitive way to resolve it scientifically would be to use something akin to a pool table, for a perfectly flat, uniform surface. otherwise your correlation <> causation.

[Mr. Bean]

Also, there are way too many variables to consider testing in or out outdoors, including slope, grain, grass type, time of day, moisture, last time the grass was cut, imperfections around the hole, when the hole was cut, etc. Really the only definitive way to resolve it scientifically would be to use something akin to a pool table, for a perfectly flat, uniform surface. otherwise your correlation <> causation.

 

Good idea. Then putting on a pool table would be easier.