2019 And The Pin Is In

[caniac6]

Played 9 this morning. We played with the pin in, and one guy that was resistant at first, said that he thought it was easier to aim with the pin in. I had a couple birdies, so the pin will stay in.

[nsxguy]

Played 9 this morning. We played with the pin in, and one guy that was resistant at first, said that he thought it was easier to aim with the pin in. I had a couple birdies, so the pin will stay in.

 

So what happens when you hit the pin and it comes out ? What then ? :D

 

I think we're all getting a little bit ahead of ourselves though, especially since about 2/3 of us won't play a round until at least March.

 

I've played 2 regular rounds and a scramble so far and have left it in most of the time and believe I will going forward but it's way too early (for me anyway) to make an "all the time" decision.

[landolakes]

I don't like the rule -- it just seems like it will be awkward --but apparently it fixes something that I didn't know was broken. i like either in or out... not both

[Sawgrass]

Played 9 this morning. We played with the pin in, and one guy that was resistant at first, said that he thought it was easier to aim with the pin in. I had a couple birdies, so the pin will stay in.

 

So what happens when you hit the pin and it comes out ? What then ? :D

 

I think we're all getting a little bit ahead of ourselves though, especially since about 2/3 of us won't play a round until at least March.

 

I've played 2 regular rounds and a scramble so far and have left it in most of the time and believe I will going forward but it's way too early (for me anyway) to make an "all the time" decision.

The same thing happens this year if you hit the pin and the ball stays out as it did last year. Play it as it lies. Only this year, under most circumstances, you won't get a penalty for having done so.

[nsxguy]

Played 9 this morning. We played with the pin in, and one guy that was resistant at first, said that he thought it was easier to aim with the pin in. I had a couple birdies, so the pin will stay in.

 

So what happens when you hit the pin and it comes out ? What then ? :D

 

I think we're all getting a little bit ahead of ourselves though, especially since about 2/3 of us won't play a round until at least March.

 

I've played 2 regular rounds and a scramble so far and have left it in most of the time and believe I will going forward but it's way too early (for me anyway) to make an "all the time" decision.

The same thing happens this year if you hit the pin and the ball stays out as it did last year. Play it as it lies. Only this year, under most circumstances, you won't get a penalty for having done so.

 

[Golfnuck]

My experience is that unless everyone agrees to keep the pin in it will take a lot longer having to pull the pin for some and to keep the pin in for others.

 

 

Why should everyone agree to keep the pin in? Why not out?

 

Keeping pin in during a stroke from the Putting Green is an OPTION, not a must.

 

I understand that keeping the pin in or out is an option.

 

Please read what you had quoted again this time read the whole sentence.

 

"My experience is that unless everyone agrees to keep the pin in it will take a lot longer having to pull the pin for some and to keep the pin in for others."

 

I am merely stating that if the golfing bodies were changing the rule to speed up play IMHO it will not work unless everyone keeps the pin in nowhere did I say that everyone has to keep the pin in or out by the rule.

[Serenity Now]

I play 3 times a week with 2 different groups with all players scratch to mid single digit and the general theme from all is to leave it in for all putts outside of 15 feet and not remove it until everyone is inside of 10 feet. It has worked out fine and as more time goes by and more guys hole putts with it in, it will be even less that we take it out. I really like the new rule as it limits the amount of guys walking up around the hole which in the winter makes a huge difference

[Mr. Bean]

I am merely stating that if the golfing bodies were changing the rule to speed up play IMHO it will not work unless everyone keeps the pin in nowhere did I say that everyone has to keep the pin in or out by the rule.

 

With all this fuss about Dave Pelz' studies, Bryson's 'Scientific approaches' and someone's own data it seems that people have completely forgotten WHY this change was made.

 

It was NOT made because RB's thought it would be easier to sink the ball into that tiny hole. It was made to speed up the game in situations where one player's ball is on the green far away from the hole and this player is ready to putt but cannot do it because the pin is in the hole. Today he can putt without having to wait for someone to attend the pin.

[Hawkeye77]

I am merely stating that if the golfing bodies were changing the rule to speed up play IMHO it will not work unless everyone keeps the pin in nowhere did I say that everyone has to keep the pin in or out by the rule.

 

With all this fuss about Dave Pelz' studies, Bryson's 'Scientific approaches' and someone's own data it seems that people have completely forgotten WHY this change was made.

 

It was NOT made because RB's thought it would be easier to sink the ball into that tiny hole. It was made to speed up the game in situations where one player's ball is on the green far away from the hole and this player is ready to putt but cannot do it because the pin is in the hole. Today he can putt without having to wait for someone to attend the pin.

 

Since that point has been covered over and over for a year, the discussion moved on to another and possible unintended (or intended) result - the idea that it makes putting easier. If so, that alone IMO suggests the rule should be changed back to the way it was.

 

Now we get to hear about the pack mentality in groups as well - adapt to our arbitrary flag distances or die.

 

And people who couldn't be bothered to look over the new rules until last week getting all charged up while still not really reading pretty basic parts of them.

 

Going to take Tiger in an event to get things back to the usual level of insanity.

[DaveLeeNC]

Are 'us golfers' really this bad? The USGA and R&A has not required that we change any behavior (on the putting greens WRT the pin) that we had before 2019. There is just a additional option that (IMHO) has a minute effect on outcomes (on average). Yet 'us golfers' seem to have turned this into something that slows down the game.

 

We really are amazing given how much we complain about pace of play, and somehow 'close to irrelevlant' additional options slow us down. WE are hopeless, I think.

 

dave

[bladehunter]

In my group yesterday, one guy wanted it out all the time, the other three didn't care. So when "one guy" wanted it out the "other three" stood by and allowed "one guy" to manage his own flagstick. By about hole 7, the "problem" cured itself. ;)

 

I’m guessing you guys would call him names before if he never attended , pulled or put the stick back all round? Kind of the same thing ,no?

 

Rule isn’t stick in. It’s choice of in or out. Courtesy shouldn’t be abandoned because someone wants it out.

 

By hole 7 if I were him you guys would have putted through some awful spike marks ( or spent all day fixing them ) by the time I had walked all over the green moving the pin. This attitude alone is part of the reason I hate the rule.

[davep043]

In my group yesterday, one guy wanted it out all the time, the other three didn't care. So when "one guy" wanted it out the "other three" stood by and allowed "one guy" to manage his own flagstick. By about hole 7, the "problem" cured itself. ;)

 

I'm guessing you guys would call him names before if he never attended , pulled or put the stick back all round? Kind of the same thing ,no?

 

Rule isn't stick in. It's choice of in or out. Courtesy shouldn't be abandoned because someone wants it out.

 

By hole 7 if I were him you guys would have putted through some awful spike marks ( or spent all day fixing them ) by the time I had walked all over the green moving the pin. This attitude alone is part of the reason I hate the rule.

Every once in a while I disagree with blade, but this time he's 100% correct. Courtesy should be used, no matter what you think about the rule. However, I don;'t hate the rule, I do dislike those stubborn one-way fools who insist that their own personal choice should govern everyone else in their group.

[bladehunter]

Are 'us golfers' really this bad? The USGA and R&A has not required that we change any behavior (on the putting greens WRT the pin) that we had before 2019. There is just a additional option that (IMHO) has a minute effect on outcomes (on average). Yet 'us golfers' seem to have turned this into something that slows down the game.

 

We really are amazing given how much we complain about pace of play, and somehow 'close to irrelevlant' additional options slow us down. WE are hopeless, I think.

 

dave

 

Dave. I appreciate your posts first of all. Always on point.

 

I feel like this rule was written for the speed demon players who really never pulled it anyway , nor holed out half the time. It’s giving them a free pass to force everyone else to do the same. I’ve now read 5 different passive aggressive stances on this just on this site basically bullying playing partners into abandoning their own preferences because of peer pressure. And have heard the same rumbling in person from the speed demon of our regular group. I’ve yet to play with him in 2019 but will Saturday if weather holds. I’m certain it will end in a cuss fight. Unless I’m strong enough to bite my lip. I’ve experimented pin in. But am not keen on the optic yet. If I’m playing for $ I want my preference. And will have it. As stated above I may have to pull it myself each time. But if that is the stance some one else will have to put it back each time. I originally assumed courtesy would remain and whomever was closest would grab the pin etc as before. It’s a step in the wrong direction for the game in my opinion. People aren’t equipped to have choices.

[sui generis]

In my group yesterday, one guy wanted it out all the time, the other three didn't care. So when "one guy" wanted it out the "other three" stood by and allowed "one guy" to manage his own flagstick. By about hole 7, the "problem" cured itself. ;)

 

I'm guessing you guys would call him names before if he never attended , pulled or put the stick back all round? Kind of the same thing ,no?

 

Rule isn't stick in. It's choice of in or out. Courtesy shouldn't be abandoned because someone wants it out.

 

By hole 7 if I were him you guys would have putted through some awful spike marks ( or spent all day fixing them ) by the time I had walked all over the green moving the pin. This attitude alone is part of the reason I hate the rule.

 

Making assumptions aren't we? Your projection isn't pretty. :swoon:

 

In my group yesterday, one guy wanted it out all the time, the other three didn't care. So when "one guy" wanted it out the "other three" stood by and allowed "one guy" to manage his own flagstick. By about hole 7, the "problem" cured itself. ;)

 

I'm guessing you guys would call him names before if he never attended , pulled or put the stick back all round? Kind of the same thing ,no?

 

Rule isn't stick in. It's choice of in or out. Courtesy shouldn't be abandoned because someone wants it out.

 

By hole 7 if I were him you guys would have putted through some awful spike marks ( or spent all day fixing them ) by the time I had walked all over the green moving the pin. This attitude alone is part of the reason I hate the rule.

Every once in a while I disagree with blade, but this time he's 100% correct. Courtesy should be used, no matter what you think about the rule. However, I don;'t hate the rule, I do dislike those stubborn one-way fools who insist that their own personal choice should govern everyone else in their group.

 

And you're making assumptions, too.

[bladehunter]

Sui ., I’ve told you before I bet we’d be pals In the real world. I like your style.

 

But I only commented on exactly what you said. By hole 7 he got the memo. What else should I assume that meant ? It surely wasn’t that he saw the light and realized the error of his ways.

[jmkenn0]

If you want the pin in to putt and its out, you should be prepared to have the pin in hand when its your time to putt. You want it out and its in? Be prepared to take it out. But realistically, most everyone from distance is going to want it kept in, and its really 15 feet or less that will make the difference. Instead of setting the flag down, someone just needs to hold it. I think this will cause all sorts of consternation for about 3 months, March-June, then everyone will have figured it out.

[davep043]

In my group yesterday, one guy wanted it out all the time, the other three didn't care. So when "one guy" wanted it out the "other three" stood by and allowed "one guy" to manage his own flagstick. By about hole 7, the "problem" cured itself. ;)

 

I'm guessing you guys would call him names before if he never attended , pulled or put the stick back all round? Kind of the same thing ,no?

 

Rule isn't stick in. It's choice of in or out. Courtesy shouldn't be abandoned because someone wants it out.

 

By hole 7 if I were him you guys would have putted through some awful spike marks ( or spent all day fixing them ) by the time I had walked all over the green moving the pin. This attitude alone is part of the reason I hate the rule.

Every once in a while I disagree with blade, but this time he's 100% correct. Courtesy should be used, no matter what you think about the rule. However, I don;'t hate the rule, I do dislike those stubborn one-way fools who insist that their own personal choice should govern everyone else in their group.

 

And you're making assumptions, too.

I don't see that as making an assumption. Golfers have been taking care of the flagstick for one another for as long as I've been playing golf. That, to me, is common courtesy. To refuse to take care of the flagstick is simply rude. To refuse to take care of the flagstick because a player has chosen a (perfectly legal under the rules) option different from the rest of the group is still rude. That is exactly what you described, three guys standing by and letting (forcing) the "one guy" to manage the flagstick on his own.

[bladehunter]

guys i didnt intend to start an argument ... I just wanted to point out why I...yes ...I... dont like the rule.. i may warm to the pin being in ..BUT in the meantime ive got a guy ( or two) to have to deal with in this same manner ... Its irritating that most assume the pin is automatically in now.. Its not... The guy im sure to butt heads with has been crowing about this rule for 3 months .

 

Im having speed issues since trying pin in for almost a week now ... Im not certain if its the optic or just a coincidence .. But im certainly going to keep testing and see what happens .

[DavePelz4]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

[Mr. Bean]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

 

Around here blind greens have a bell or another device meant to be used to tell the next group the green is clear. Besides the dead and buried Etiquette section (today included in the Rule 1.2) says that you need to make sure if is safe to play. That has not changed, so let us be careful out there...

[bladehunter]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

 

extremely good point... our brain is trained to look for the pin... if i see the top of the pin i think " its clear"... im a walker ... you arent walking up 200 yards to check and back... i know of 2 par 5 holes like this where i can reach if i go over the edge of a dogleg that makes it particularly blind , and from that distance you cannot see the green surface at all for the bunkering and mounds... but you can see the top of the pin...they use one of those slightly longer ones so it sticks above the bunker /mound horizon. no other way to know .

[Hawkeye77]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

 

Yep! Thought about that the other day seeing someone across the pond next to an extra tall flagstick that was there because of the elevation and blind nature of the regular approach.

 

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

 

Around here blind greens have a bell or another device meant to be used to tell the next group the green is clear. Besides the dead and buried Etiquette section (today included in the Rule 1.2) says that you need to make sure if is safe to play. That has not changed, so let us be careful out there...

 

Not all by any means.

[Z1ggy16]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

Don't most of those kind of holes (where maybe only the top 1/3 of the flag is visible or so) tend to have bells or some kind of alerting method for the guys on the fairway?

 

As in... if you're on the fairway and you know there's a group in front... you don't hit until you hear the bell/horn/whistle?

 

And if no whistle/bell, just use common sense I suppose. If you're a group of 2 or a single behind 4 guys walking... you know it's probably going to take at least 4-5 minutes for all of them to find their balls, line up and hit putts. When you get to your ball.. wait a few minutes. Otherwise if you're that impatient, hit your shot but take 1-2 less clubs and deal with the fact you won't be making birdie. Otherwise, risk hitting somebody and possibly getting sued for damages. If it's competition... well you'd have to suck it up and go check the green I suppose.

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, using the pin as an indicator of whether or not the green is clear has always been an iffy thing. Even in 2018 (while not the norm), maybe some guy wanted to chip up from a close position (for whatever reason) with the pin out, while a putter needed it tended. Or some guy putted off the green (late in the winter dormant bermuda greens can get REALLY fast), etc.

 

And that can be a particular problem for walkers.

 

dave

[Joker91]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

What's the difference of someone chipping with the pin in on a blind green?

[DavePelz4]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

Don't most of those kind of holes (where maybe only the top 1/3 of the flag is visible or so) tend to have bells or some kind of alerting method for the guys on the fairway?

 

As in... if you're on the fairway and you know there's a group in front... you don't hit until you hear the bell/horn/whistle?

 

And if no whistle/bell, just use common sense I suppose. If you're a group of 2 or a single behind 4 guys walking... you know it's probably going to take at least 4-5 minutes for all of them to find their balls, line up and hit putts. When you get to your ball.. wait a few minutes. Otherwise if you're that impatient, hit your shot but take 1-2 less clubs and deal with the fact you won't be making birdie. Otherwise, risk hitting somebody and possibly getting sued for damages. If it's competition... well you'd have to suck it up and go check the green I suppose.

 

We play 50+ different courses a year. It's way more common for the bell to be used on tee shots as opposed to approaches. I can't think of a single hole where you ring a bell after holing out.

[DavePelz4]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

What's the difference of someone chipping with the pin in on a blind green?

 

A blind shot is a blind shot except you're closer with the chip and could potentially walk up a bit to see if the green was clear.

[bladehunter]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

What's the difference of someone chipping with the pin in on a blind green?

 

Much smaller amount of time the pin is in. Near zero chance that way. While putting that chance jumps a lot.

[Mr. Bean]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

What's the difference of someone chipping with the pin in on a blind green?

 

I believe you did not quite catch it...

 

A player chips with pin out and then the pin is put back in. Now the group behind thinks the green is free.

 

Got it?

[Mr. Bean]

I'll throw a little wrinkle into the mix. How long will it be before someone is hitting into a blind green where you can only see the flagstick and someone putting gets popped? Doesn't happen often but on blind approaches there's the opportunity for someone to get hit.

Don't most of those kind of holes (where maybe only the top 1/3 of the flag is visible or so) tend to have bells or some kind of alerting method for the guys on the fairway?

 

As in... if you're on the fairway and you know there's a group in front... you don't hit until you hear the bell/horn/whistle?

 

And if no whistle/bell, just use common sense I suppose. If you're a group of 2 or a single behind 4 guys walking... you know it's probably going to take at least 4-5 minutes for all of them to find their balls, line up and hit putts. When you get to your ball.. wait a few minutes. Otherwise if you're that impatient, hit your shot but take 1-2 less clubs and deal with the fact you won't be making birdie. Otherwise, risk hitting somebody and possibly getting sued for damages. If it's competition... well you'd have to suck it up and go check the green I suppose.

 

These threads would be shorter if people would read what has already been written instead of repeating it in a new post...