Could Augusta National Have a Local Rule Banning Leaving the Pin In?

[Roadking2003]

I like that Augusta is able to make local rules as it deems necessary.

 

But they are not able "to make local rules as it deems necessary" if they want to preserve their 80-year history of playing by the rules of golf.

[HitEmTrue]

Inside of 50 yards there is a pretty good chance you can see where the hole is cut barring circumstances where the surface is hidden.

 

My threshold for needing the pin attended (when putting) is much closer than 50 yards.

[nsxguy]

Not sure this is even a consideration for them. Why would they stray from an official rule of golf, by ALL the governing bodies. That tournament tries to be the very definition of what the game is, I just cant see how they go against it becasue they "feel" it is the right thing to do. Time goes on, things change, it happens. Or maybe they force the flagstick out but let a caddie help read a putt...interesting trade-off???

 

Trade off ? The caddies can already help the player read putts,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[erichake]

We were talking yesterday during out round about this? I wonder what Augusta National thinks of this rule? Could they make a local rule requiring the pin to be removed when putting?

 

Nope. Don't think so.

 

I don't think so either. I bet they are not happy about it. There are clear advantages to it. I witnessed it twice yesterday. Saved a guy a par and a birdie.

 

There are "clear advantages" due to other rules, too ("advantages" which are available to every player in the field). It's an "advantage" to be able to take an unplayable lie from behind a tree; an option that's available to all players. Should Augusta not allow that option, either?

[erichake]

I dare you to find the word "pin" in the rules of golf. It's a flagstick. Pins are in bowling.

[erichake]

What exactly is the problem here? Players can elect to leave it in if they want but can also still remove the flag. So, be mad at USGA or the player?

 

How would your feelings change if say Brooks Koepka said, "Look I know that leaving the flag stick is an advantage for me but for aesthetics, the patrons and the television viewer I am going to pull the flag every time I am on the green." There'd be twelve threads going saying Brooks is a dumb linebacker.

 

Well that would be one way to get the interviews he wants.

 

Since winning three majors isn't doing it.

[NoRoots]

I hope the bring back the stymie.

Funny

This topic brings out the best and worst of us.

[erichake]

With how fast those greens roll, for sure they would want that rule lifted for the tournament. Will the PGA change it for the Masters though? I doubt it. It would set a precedent. You can't have a series of rules changed just for the majors and not the other tournaments.

 

The PGA has no control over The Masters. Augusta National has total control of how the tournament is played. I would be shocked if Augusta goes against the USGA on this, especially since their current chairman has very deep ties to the USGA. He was President of the USGA at one point.

Whey you say "PGA" do you mean the PGA or the PGA Tour? They're two totally separate entities. The PGA is golf professionals. The PGA Tour is professional golfers.

[Ignatius Reilly]

You guys are putting way too much focus on the USGA. It's a joint decision by the USGA and R&A and covers..... the entire world. If you're going to blame the USGA you have to blame the R&A too, and by extension you should criticize that little tournament they run annually. Because they don't understand "golf"....

 

Some ideas of running The Masters different to other tournaments are ridiculous. People have fought bifurcation of the rules since... forever. Once you decide on one different rule for The Masters, why not more than one? Why not different rules at each tournament? Why not different rules for each round? Would keep DJ busy reading!

 

A whole lot of noise about nothing IMO.

 

As for those who find it slower because some like it in and some like it out - give it some time. It's been a rule for less than 6 weeks at this point. You and your FCs will figure it out in due time.

 

SMH. The Masters. Tied with The Open for the most historic, iconic, tradition-bound tournament in the game, and you think they won't play by the RoG?????? SMH.

[Vindog]

With how fast those greens roll, for sure they would want that rule lifted for the tournament. Will the PGA change it for the Masters though? I doubt it. It would set a precedent. You can't have a series of rules changed just for the majors and not the other tournaments.

 

The PGA has no control over The Masters. Augusta National has total control of how the tournament is played. I would be shocked if Augusta goes against the USGA on this, especially since their current chairman has very deep ties to the USGA. He was President of the USGA at one point.

Whey you say "PGA" do you mean the PGA or the PGA Tour? They're two totally separate entities. The PGA is golf professionals. The PGA Tour is professional golfers.

 

It's a moot point, because neither entity has any control over the Masters

[bladehunter]

In think they should go against the usga/r&a and not allow it. Why? It was created in an effort to speed play even when they knew it gave an advantage in putting results. Here's my albeit humble experience in 3 rounds with all single digit handicap players ( friends since college golf) : it slowed play! With or without caddies it slowed play. 2 guys want it in 2 guys want it out. Only solution we came up with was to forgo the furthest from the pin goes first rule and let those that want it in putt first. Wouldn't work in Match play or serious betting games but it did seem to correct the slower down play of our first 2 rounds. Don't know if this is what others are discovering during play? Would be curious to hear. Having spent many days at the masters I couldn't imagine some of the slower players in a group going back and forth with caddies, pin no pin .

 

It's a process. You'll get used to it.

 

The players and caddies on Tour already have the process down pat.

 

Nah. I predict it’s reversed inside 5 years. The pro players aren’t adopting it wholesale as hoped. Now there’s new studies showing it’s not really profitable to leave it in. At least not as it was originally reported by Pelz.

[Vindog]

You do bring up a good point that it was done before.

[bladehunter]

I still say if the flag was removed all together our collective handicaps would drop 2-4 strokes. 95% of us (golfers not wrxers) have no business aiming at the hole until we are close enough to the green to see it without the flag.

True, but the guys playing at Augusta (the original topic of this thread) are a little better than even the best of the WRXers.

 

Blasphemer.

 

 

I still say if the flag was removed all together our collective handicaps would drop 2-4 strokes. 95% of us (golfers not wrxers) have no business aiming at the hole until we are close enough to the green to see it without the flag.

 

Let's assume you are correct for longer distance shots....when I've got a wedge in my hand, I need to know where the flag is.

 

< edit >

And I'm not even that good of a golfer, by wrxer standards. :)

 

I think Lowest Shot Wins has the data that supports it. Might be Broadie's data re-used in that book.

 

Want to say something to the effect of "outside of 50 yards and in, all but single digit handicaps are better off going for the center of the green." Inside of 50 yards there is a pretty good chance you can see where the hole is cut barring circumstances where the surface is hidden.

 

I haven't exercised the recommendation but I will this year. I do agree that the flag stick can aid in depth perception.

 

So much subjective data there. ( the book) I guarantee you take a struggling putter like I was and plop him down 60 ft from every pin and he 3 putts 80 % of the greens. 4 putts some more. Where as I hit plenty of 150 and in shots tight. People always “ assume” putting is easy and a given. Not even close.

[nsxguy]

In think they should go against the usga/r&a and not allow it. Why? It was created in an effort to speed play even when they knew it gave an advantage in putting results. Here's my albeit humble experience in 3 rounds with all single digit handicap players ( friends since college golf) : it slowed play! With or without caddies it slowed play. 2 guys want it in 2 guys want it out. Only solution we came up with was to forgo the furthest from the pin goes first rule and let those that want it in putt first. Wouldn't work in Match play or serious betting games but it did seem to correct the slower down play of our first 2 rounds. Don't know if this is what others are discovering during play? Would be curious to hear. Having spent many days at the masters I couldn't imagine some of the slower players in a group going back and forth with caddies, pin no pin .

 

It's a process. You'll get used to it.

 

The players and caddies on Tour already have the process down pat.

 

Nah. I predict it's reversed inside 5 years. The pro players aren't adopting it wholesale as hoped. Now there's new studies showing it's not really profitable to leave it in. At least not as it was originally reported by Pelz.

 

b) I'd take that bet.

 

5) I don't recall anyone saying they hoped the pros would adopt it wholesale.

 

a) Not profitable to leave it in ? What's your point ? It's still the same for everybody.

 

2) Pelz was wrong now ? Because some other "studies" :rolleyes: show it's not "profitable" to leave it in ? A ball that's not round running over ground that's not flat at varying speeds (yes, even off that metal ladder thingie). And this is "science" ? :D Now we're going to argue over the definition of "slight" ? Or "advantage" ? :)

 

The USGA(?) "admits" it's a slight advantage to leave it in. We already know there will be 3 types of players. Those who will stick to the original plan and take it out all the time, those who will leave it IN all the time and those who will consider the situation.

 

Actually I don't think that's exactly true as even those leaving it in "all the time" will probably pull it if it's leaning towards them, so make that only 2 different types. ;)

[Nard_S]

What I thought was interesting in last year's Masters was they added new pin positions. My gut tells me they'll offset the flag stick in rule by going even further with this if they feel the rule compromises the setup. The genius and beauty of that course is the flexibility in the setup. The big defense is the greens. I hope they utilize that in spades this year.

[xxio]

Wasn't the purpose to speed up play by allowing the Am to putt without having to go all way to the other side of the green pulling the pin and setting it outside the green.

 

 

I don't think the governing body was debating the help/hurt numbers as much as how many seconds it would save a flight per green.

 

The help/hurt is just a consequence of the real purpose.

[Sawgrass]

Wasn't the purpose to speed up play by allowing the Am to putt without having to go all way to the other side of the green pulling the pin and setting it outside the green.

 

 

I don't think the governing body was debating the help/hurt numbers as much as how many seconds it would save a flight per green.

 

The help/hurt is just a consequence of the real purpose.

Yep. Here's exactly what the USGA has to say on the matter:

Reasons for Change:

Allowing a player to putt with the flagstick in the hole without fear of penalty should generally help speed up play.

When the players did not have caddies, the previous Rule could result in considerable delay.

On balance it is expected that there is no advantage in being able to putt with the unattended flagstick in the hole:

• In some cases, the ball may strike the flagstick and bounce out of the hole when it might otherwise have been holed, and
  
• In other cases, the ball may hit the flagstick and finish in the hole when it might otherwise have missed.
  

[geno4952]

It's not like ANGC had an issue with the optics of the pin staying in during the last phase when it was legal. There are plenty of film on the masters website showing players in the late 50's and 60's putting with the flag unattended from distance.

 

If it's an advantage to putt with the pin in, and everyone has the priveledge to decide whether the pin stays in or not, then there is no advantage to the field. The only difference is scoring compared to history. When was the rule finally changed that forced the pin's removal? was the scoring for the next year substantially different?

 

If not, who cares?

 

I believe from 1950 until 1956 you could putt with the flag in unattended if you were at least 20 yards from the hole. In 1956 the rule was changed to allow the flagstick to be left in from any distance as long as it was unattended. The rule was changed in 1968 to what it has been for the last 50 years. There are videos of Arnold Palmer putting in the 1960 Masters with the flag in so why would they change it now?

 

Won't happen....

[bladehunter]

In think they should go against the usga/r&a and not allow it. Why? It was created in an effort to speed play even when they knew it gave an advantage in putting results. Here's my albeit humble experience in 3 rounds with all single digit handicap players ( friends since college golf) : it slowed play! With or without caddies it slowed play. 2 guys want it in 2 guys want it out. Only solution we came up with was to forgo the furthest from the pin goes first rule and let those that want it in putt first. Wouldn't work in Match play or serious betting games but it did seem to correct the slower down play of our first 2 rounds. Don't know if this is what others are discovering during play? Would be curious to hear. Having spent many days at the masters I couldn't imagine some of the slower players in a group going back and forth with caddies, pin no pin .

 

It's a process. You'll get used to it.

 

The players and caddies on Tour already have the process down pat.

 

Nah. I predict it's reversed inside 5 years. The pro players aren't adopting it wholesale as hoped. Now there's new studies showing it's not really profitable to leave it in. At least not as it was originally reported by Pelz.

 

b) I'd take that bet.

 

5) I don't recall anyone saying they hoped the pros would adopt it wholesale.

 

a) Not profitable to leave it in ? What's your point ? It's still the same for everybody.

 

2) Pelz was wrong now ? Because some other "studies" :rolleyes: show it's not "profitable" to leave it in ? A ball that's not round running over ground that's not flat at varying speeds (yes, even off that metal ladder thingie). And this is "science" ? :D Now we're going to argue over the definition of "slight" ? Or "advantage" ? :)

 

The USGA(?) "admits" it's a slight advantage to leave it in. We already know there will be 3 types of players. Those who will stick to the original plan and take it out all the time, those who will leave it IN all the time and those who will consider the situation.

 

Actually I don't think that's exactly true as even those leaving it in "all the time" will probably pull it if it's leaning towards them, so make that only 2 different types. ;)

 

Now that randomness is out of the way. Back to the point.

 

It’s slowing the game down because it won’t be adopted wholesale as expected. No adjustments or dance learning will change that.

 

I played 9 yesterday and it was constant. In and out. Rediculous. And it was 3 wanting it out and 1 wanting it in. Sometimes. We obliged him and put it back every time he asked. But. It slowed us down.

 

The rule very likely will stay as their ability to cut off their nose to spite their face is well documented. But speeding up the game it will not. The groups who want to putt Witt the pin in and not putt out have always done this. No gain there. The groups who compete and putt out have now muddy water to tread through as it’s a mix of in and out and always will be. Slower is what it is.

[geno4952]

I was under impression local rules can be applied in the absence of USGA rules on a topic but can't not supersede existing rules. That's why clubs and Tours can specify dress codes, restrict use of golf carts or define their own course markings but they cannot change existing rules. In the case of the flag stick, the rule is written so that it's the golfers decision to leave the flag in or out prior to making a stroke but permits and recognizes both methods so I'm not sure if it's a violation of the rules for a tournament committee to remove the option.

In order to remove the option, they would have to be able to enforce it with a penalty of some kind. This is from 8L in Committee Procedures:

Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.

So the Committee must not impose a penalty on something that is expressly NOT penalized under the Rules.

 

 

Makes sense, thanks for responding with the quote from 8L. I'm curious then about how tournament committees impose penalties on minimalist golf tournaments where the number of clubs permitted is less than the USGA rule of 14? Is minimalist golf and other forms of is not considered a tournament played under USGA rules?

 

The rule says you can have a maximum of 14 clubs so there really is no minimum.... We have a 3 club tournament at our club the only thing different is we are not required to use the scores for posting for a handicap.... actually had one of my better rounds last year with a 12* driver.... a 7 iron ... and a gap wedge... putted with either the driver or the wedge.....shot 78.. no one was more surprised than I was.... whooda thunk it???

 

Peace

[CaseyC]

 

 

...It's slowing the game down because it won't be adopted wholesale as expected. No adjustments or dance learning will change that.

 

I played 9 yesterday and it was constant. In and out. Rediculous. And it was 3 wanting it out and 1 wanting it in. Sometimes. We obliged him and put it back every time he asked. But. It slowed us down....

 

 

How long did your round take?

[farmer]

This is the most over talked, over analyzed topic of the year. I predict that at the end of the year, it will have 0 effect on scoring, might speed club play a small amount, and the flag stick will still be just a flag stick. If the USGA rethinks a new rule, it will be the three minute decision, which I will predict will be the most ignored rule at the club level. Blade, sorry, but one round is not even a sniff of a sample size. Way too soon to draw any conclusions.

[llewol007]

Why would they?

[geno4952]

 

 

I believe, but am not sure, that playing from a wrong place and NOT subsequently correcting it, used to be a DQ. :dntknw:

 

That is true, and that was the controversy. Fred Ridley decided to only give him a two shot penalty after the fact (overnight).

 

 

I could be wrong but the way I read it in the rule is.. it is only a DQ if it is a serious breach (where one gains a significant advantage in doing so) otherwise it is a 2 stroke penalty or loss of hole in match play.... What I was most surprised by was that with all the golf he has played that he (Tiger) did not know that replaying the shot means from as near as possible to the original spot the shot was played from. I suppose maybe he thought he was going back as far as he wanted but needing to keep the spot the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between him and the hole. This could also have been the reason it took them so long to assess the penalty as they were trying to determine if the was the case???.... water under the bridge as they say.... looking forward to this year flag in or not.. it is still The Masters

 

Peace

[geno4952]

I could see the old ANGC defying the USGA or whatever. But the new ANGC is warm and fuzzier. They seem at least as committed to "growing the game" as being old and fusty. With all of their recent efforts to include females, juniors and the international community, it could be a bad look if ANGC tried to take an old fusty stand here. And we are just talking about flagsticks here. Take a step back and look at what's really important in the world, and life. This flag rule is not a big deal at all.

 

The old ANGC breaking the rules, with Bobby Jones.... the absolute king and high potentate of USGA and R&A tournament golf... being in charge.... not likely.... sorry... could not resist that one.....

 

Peace

[nsxguy]

In think they should go against the usga/r&a and not allow it. Why? It was created in an effort to speed play even when they knew it gave an advantage in putting results. Here's my albeit humble experience in 3 rounds with all single digit handicap players ( friends since college golf) : it slowed play! With or without caddies it slowed play. 2 guys want it in 2 guys want it out. Only solution we came up with was to forgo the furthest from the pin goes first rule and let those that want it in putt first. Wouldn't work in Match play or serious betting games but it did seem to correct the slower down play of our first 2 rounds. Don't know if this is what others are discovering during play? Would be curious to hear. Having spent many days at the masters I couldn't imagine some of the slower players in a group going back and forth with caddies, pin no pin .

 

It's a process. You'll get used to it.

 

The players and caddies on Tour already have the process down pat.

 

Nah. I predict it's reversed inside 5 years. The pro players aren't adopting it wholesale as hoped. Now there's new studies showing it's not really profitable to leave it in. At least not as it was originally reported by Pelz.

 

b) I'd take that bet.

 

5) I don't recall anyone saying they hoped the pros would adopt it wholesale.

 

a) Not profitable to leave it in ? What's your point ? It's still the same for everybody.

 

2) Pelz was wrong now ? Because some other "studies" :rolleyes: show it's not "profitable" to leave it in ? A ball that's not round running over ground that's not flat at varying speeds (yes, even off that metal ladder thingie). And this is "science" ? :D Now we're going to argue over the definition of "slight" ? Or "advantage" ? :)

 

The USGA(?) "admits" it's a slight advantage to leave it in. We already know there will be 3 types of players. Those who will stick to the original plan and take it out all the time, those who will leave it IN all the time and those who will consider the situation.

 

Actually I don't think that's exactly true as even those leaving it in "all the time" will probably pull it if it's leaning towards them, so make that only 2 different types. ;)

 

Now that randomness is out of the way. Back to the point.

 

It's slowing the game down because it won't be adopted wholesale as expected. No adjustments or dance learning will change that.

 

I played 9 yesterday and it was constant. In and out. Rediculous. And it was 3 wanting it out and 1 wanting it in. Sometimes. We obliged him and put it back every time he asked. But. It slowed us down.

 

The rule very likely will stay as their ability to cut off their nose to spite their face is well documented. But speeding up the game it will not. The groups who want to putt Witt the pin in and not putt out have always done this. No gain there. The groups who compete and putt out have now muddy water to tread through as it's a mix of in and out and always will be. Slower is what it is.

 

I mentioned it previously but WHERE did anyone say or suggest it would be adopted "wholesale". If anything, most of the "predictions" *I* have seen are that some will pull the flag and some won't. i.e. a mixture.

 

You have a number of people on here who either agree that it is saving a little time or suggest it will once everybody get used to the "rhythm". And that's all it was intended to do, save a little time.

 

You posted it yourself (and thanks BTW) "Allowing a player to putt with the flagstick in the hole without fear of penalty should generally help speed up play."

 

"Should", "generally". BOTH these words have meanings. Stated another way, "GENERALLY (i.e. not all the time) this rule SHOULD HELP speed up play." That better ?

 

You won't get any definitive answer to slowing it down or speeding it up until you get a disinterested party timing it. And even then, since every round, every hole and every shot is different, what good would timing it be ? Correct. Zero.

 

So you think/believe/are sure that it slows you down ? No worries. But since it's a rule I guess we'll all have to live with it.

 

That said, don't worry. That guy who always wanted it pulled ? He'll soon get with the program and will (at least) leave it in on longer putts and only have it pulled on shorter/makeable ones - which, BTW, seems to be exactly what's happening already, admittedly slowly(?), on the Pro Tours. (cool)

[geno4952]

Does anyone know the reasoning/history behind the old rule, i.e. why was it considered essential that the flag be removed for putting, and when was it enacted?

There's a discussion of the flagstick here:

http://www.ruleshistory.com/green.html

For most of the known history of the rules, you had to remove the flag when you got within 20 yards. When maintenance standards improved, a definition of the "putting green" was developed, and the old 20-yard criteria changed. For 12 years (1956-1968), the penalty for hitting the flag with a shot from the putting green was removed.

Rules have always been a little different for match play.

My best guess, when golf developed, they simply dug a series of holes somewhere "out there". There was no standard hole size, no hole liner, and no flags. The putting area wasn't maintained much differently than the rest of the course. The game developed with the goal of putting the ball into the hole. The flag was a later addition, to help players find the hole (still guessing here), but as such an addition was probably looked at as some kind of obstruction that should be removed, to maintain the goal of getting the ball into the hole.

 

Especially if the old "there are 18 holes because that is how long a bottle of Scotch would last" was true... once they got past 9 or 10 holes they would need the flag to see where the hole was if they were more than 20 yards away.........

 

Peace

[Sawgrass]

 

 

It's slowing the game down because it won't be adopted wholesale as expected. No adjustments or dance learning will change that.

 

I played 9 yesterday and it was constant. In and out. Rediculous. And it was 3 wanting it out and 1 wanting it in. Sometimes. We obliged him and put it back every time he asked. But. It slowed us down.

 

The rule very likely will stay as their ability to cut off their nose to spite their face is well documented. But speeding up the game it will not. The groups who want to putt Witt the pin in and not putt out have always done this. No gain there. The groups who compete and putt out have now muddy water to tread through as it's a mix of in and out and always will be. Slower is what it is.

 

I'm not sure if you mean that the people you were playing with were ridiculous, or the rule is.

 

If people are devoted to wasting time, they will succeed irrespective of any rule. (Just ask them how long they search for a lost ball!)

[nsxguy]

I believe, but am not sure, that playing from a wrong place and NOT subsequently correcting it, used to be a DQ. :dntknw:

 

That is true, and that was the controversy. Fred Ridley decided to only give him a two shot penalty after the fact (overnight).

 

 

I could be wrong but the way I read it in the rule is.. it is only a DQ if it is a serious breach (where one gains a significant advantage in doing so) otherwise it is a 2 stroke penalty or loss of hole in match play.... What I was most surprised by was that with all the golf he has played that he (Tiger) did not know that replaying the shot means from as near as possible to the original spot the shot was played from. I suppose maybe he thought he was going back as far as he wanted but needing to keep the spot the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard between him and the hole. This could also have been the reason it took them so long to assess the penalty as they were trying to determine if the was the case???.... water under the bridge as they say.... looking forward to this year flag in or not.. it is still The Masters

 

Peace

 

Looking at the old rules I believe you are correct. That is why 2 the strokes.

 

As for the suggestion he thought he could play from as far back on the same line ??? Very doubtful. He would certainly know the ball did NOT last cross the hazard on the line he hit the previous shot.

[dlygrisse]

I thought the PGA Tour would have made it a rule for all tournaments. As it is, there's nothing they can do about it.

 

The PGA Tour could go back to the old rule if they wanted to tomorrow.

 

They won't.

 

 

From Mr. Ridley's public comments, it seems The Masters will allow the pin to stay in this year.

 

The “old rule” is actually leaving the flag in. Requiring the flag to be removed came into effect in 1968.