Could Augusta National Have a Local Rule Banning Leaving the Pin In?

[lowheel]

Well, the Usga has no say on the 5 year exemption on pga tour or the world rankings.

Tournament of champions and Players Championship either as they are pga tour controlled.

The Usga has no say in world rankings points or pga tour exemptions

 

If the R and A and UsGA want to get rid of the exemption for their majors, they could.

 

Of course the pga tour could also drop those two events from being official money and wins if we want to escalate the pissing contests.

And the PGA could decide to write their own rules of golf that the PGA TOUr could choose to use, basically putting a torpedo in the side of the Usga

 

All absurd, almost as absurd as the Augusta National not getting in lockstep with the Usga rules as written, which is why I said it was all in fun

 

I have to doubt that the OWGR would award points for an event not played in accordance with the Rules of Golf. Even with all the Pomp and Pageantry of The Masters.

 

They wouldnt dare tangle with augusta for something petty like that, the money and legal resources they possess would implode the tour. local rules are used all the time

[Frankensteins Monster]

Well the answer to your question is yes.

So can we shut this thread down please....

Not correct. The only way they can say they’re going to prohibit leaving the flag in is if they say they’re not going to play by the USGA rules. A local rule CANNOT be made about the flagstick if they’re playing by USGA rules.

 

Just to be contrarian, and it’s for fun....

But, what would happen if Augusta said we are NOT abiding by the flagstick rule, and we are still using the old lateral and regular hazard rules for the Maters only?

 

What is the penalty? USGA jail? None of the participants can post their scores for handicap purposes?

They choose to play by USGA rules. Those rules are not laws, just rules by an organization that organized itself to do this

 

I just think it’s funny how it seems ironclad that anyone MUSt play by all the rules So be them said, so be them written!

 

Sorry, a lot of cough syrup lately! :)

 

Ps Can’t see any way Augusta does not play by the rules as written, or a reason not to

 

Your post isn't contrarian at all to my post. Mine is very clear. You are either playing by the USGA rules of golf or you're not.

[Roadking2003]

People forget that the "committee" at ANGC couldn't even handle a drop procedure correctly..

 

???? please explain.

 

If they could have, they would have let Tiger off scot free.

 

I don't understand your comment. Tiger clearly violated the rules. ANGC penalized him. What other action could have been done?

[xxio]

I was under impression local rules can be applied in the absence of USGA rules on a topic but can't not supersede existing rules. That's why clubs and Tours can specify dress codes, restrict use of golf carts or define their own course markings but they cannot change existing rules. In the case of the flag stick, the rule is written so that it's the golfers decision to leave the flag in or out prior to making a stroke but permits and recognizes both methods so I'm not sure if it's a violation of the rules for a tournament committee to remove the option.

In order to remove the option, they would have to be able to enforce it with a penalty of some kind. This is from 8L in Committee Procedures:

Committee must not impose penalties when the Rules do not impose them, for example, penalizing a player who failed to total his or her score on the scorecard in stroke play.

So the Committee must not impose a penalty on something that is expressly NOT penalized under the Rules.

 

 

Makes sense, thanks for responding with the quote from 8L. I'm curious then about how tournament committees impose penalties on minimalist golf tournaments where the number of clubs permitted is less than the USGA rule of 14? Is minimalist golf and other forms of is not considered a tournament played under USGA rules?

 

Using that analogy, mulligans and strings are good too?

 

Let's not confuse fun golf formats with professional tournament golf.

[Roadking2003]

Well the answer to your question is yes.

So can we shut this thread down please....

Not correct. The only way they can say they’re going to prohibit leaving the flag in is if they say they’re not going to play by the USGA rules. A local rule CANNOT be made about the flagstick if they’re playing by USGA rules.

 

Just to be contrarian, and it’s for fun....

But, what would happen if Augusta said we are NOT abiding by the flagstick rule, and we are still using the old lateral and regular hazard rules for the Maters only?

 

What is the penalty? USGA jail? None of the participants can post their scores for handicap purposes?

They choose to play by USGA rules. Those rules are not laws, just rules by an organization that organized itself to do this

 

I just think it’s funny how it seems ironclad that anyone MUSt play by all the rules So be them said, so be them written!

 

Sorry, a lot of cough syrup lately! :)

 

Ps Can’t see any way Augusta does not play by the rules as written, or a reason not to

 

There is nothing stopping ANY tournament ANYWHERE from playing by their own rules other than their own desire to remain in compliance.

 

ANGC is no different.

[bladehunter]

They could just make the sticks bigger...

 

 

 

Yep. Just have pins made that repel balls. Easy peasy. Phil will have them tended from 170 and in.

[nsxguy]

They could just make the sticks bigger...

 

 

 

Yep. Just have pins made that repel balls. Easy peasy. Phil will have them tended from 170 and in.

 

This is an example of what I mentioned in the other thread; about reading subsequent posts before answering one.

 

The answer was already posted; that larger than .75 inch are ILLEGAL according to the rules.

 

The diameter of the pin is not allowed to be greater than 0.75 inches. Most of us are accustomed to 0.5" diameter pins, so using the maximum size could at least change the statistics around leaving the pin in, to the point where VERY few players would do it. Its interesting that, prior to Jan 1, there was a recommendation that the flagstick be no larger than 0.75", but not a specific requirement.

[J13]

Augusta will have high CT pins so players will take them out :taunt:

[davep043]

They could just make the sticks bigger...

 

 

 

Yep. Just have pins made that repel balls. Easy peasy. Phil will have them tended from 170 and in.

In case blade is serious (I hope you're kidding)....

The flagstick must not:

a. incorporate features, including materials, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball, or

b. have features or properties which are designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball, or

c. have attachments which are designed to allow a player to determine wind speed.

To me, "repelling balls" would qualify as "unduly influencing the movement of the ball." A heavier material, and a larger diameter (up to the maximum) could influence more players to have the flag removed.

[nsxguy]

Well, the Usga has no say on the 5 year exemption on pga tour or the world rankings.

Tournament of champions and Players Championship either as they are pga tour controlled.

The Usga has no say in world rankings points or pga tour exemptions

 

If the R and A and UsGA want to get rid of the exemption for their majors, they could.

 

Of course the pga tour could also drop those two events from being official money and wins if we want to escalate the pissing contests.

And the PGA could decide to write their own rules of golf that the PGA TOUr could choose to use, basically putting a torpedo in the side of the Usga

 

All absurd, almost as absurd as the Augusta National not getting in lockstep with the Usga rules as written, which is why I said it was all in fun

 

I have to doubt that the OWGR would award points for an event not played in accordance with the Rules of Golf. Even with all the Pomp and Pageantry of The Masters.

 

They wouldnt dare tangle with augusta for something petty like that, the money and legal resources they possess would implode the tour. local rules are used all the time

 

I'm not sure who "they" are (PGA Tour or OWGR) but a post earlier showed how dependent on each other the PGA Tour, USGA, Masters, etc. are, for something like this to cause a real issue - then again, I suppose stranger things have happened.

 

Local rules ARE used all the time BUT, ONLY local rules are specifically authorized BY the Rules of Golf, called Model Local Rules" are permitted - and this one proposed, overriding allowing the stick to stay in, is NOT.

 

You can't just make up your own local rule and be playing by the Rules of Golf.

[MidwestGolfBum]

They could just make the sticks bigger...

 

 

 

Yep. Just have pins made that repel balls. Easy peasy. Phil will have them tended from 170 and in.

In case blade is serious (I hope you're kidding)....

The flagstick must not:

a. incorporate features, including materials, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball, or

b. have features or properties which are designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball, or

c. have attachments which are designed to allow a player to determine wind speed.

To me, "repelling balls" would qualify as "unduly influencing the movement of the ball." A heavier material, and a larger diameter (up to the maximum) could influence more players to have the flag removed.

 

For a while, my club had very solid steel pins. Which not only left a fairly healthy dent on the green when dropped and not set down softly, but also made it VERY, VERY hard to get a ball to drop when hit with anything above a die in pace. They were used because our super said it helped to not rip out the cups with high winds we have. They were legal, and could be used at ANGC instead of the fiberglass pins we are used to seeing.

[deadsolid...shank]

They could just make the sticks bigger...

 

 

 

Yep. Just have pins made that repel balls. Easy peasy. Phil will have them tended from 170 and in.

 

This is an example of what I mentioned in the other thread; about reading subsequent posts before answering one.

 

The answer was already posted; that larger than .75 inch are ILLEGAL according to the rules.

 

The diameter of the pin is not allowed to be greater than 0.75 inches. Most of us are accustomed to 0.5" diameter pins, so using the maximum size could at least change the statistics around leaving the pin in, to the point where VERY few players would do it. Its interesting that, prior to Jan 1, there was a recommendation that the flagstick be no larger than 0.75", but not a specific requirement.

 

If the talk is about them ignoring a rule about the whether the stick is in or not, why is it different to think they could ignore a rule about the size of the stick? Although I doubt they’ll do either anyway.

[nsxguy]

People forget that the "committee" at ANGC couldn't even handle a drop procedure correctly..

 

???? please explain.

 

If they could have, they would have let Tiger off scot free.

 

I don't understand your comment. Tiger clearly violated the rules. ANGC penalized him. What other action could have been done?

 

I believe, but am not sure, that playing from a wrong place and NOT subsequently correcting it, used to be a DQ. :dntknw:

[davep043]

They could just make the sticks bigger...

 

 

 

Yep. Just have pins made that repel balls. Easy peasy. Phil will have them tended from 170 and in.

 

This is an example of what I mentioned in the other thread; about reading subsequent posts before answering one.

 

The answer was already posted; that larger than .75 inch are ILLEGAL according to the rules.

 

The diameter of the pin is not allowed to be greater than 0.75 inches. Most of us are accustomed to 0.5" diameter pins, so using the maximum size could at least change the statistics around leaving the pin in, to the point where VERY few players would do it. Its interesting that, prior to Jan 1, there was a recommendation that the flagstick be no larger than 0.75", but not a specific requirement.

 

If the talk is about them ignoring a rule about the whether the stick is in or not, why is it different to think they could ignore a rule about the size of the stick?

You'd have to ask PZero and blade, but I took their comments as trying to find a way within the USGA rules to encourage (or force) players to remove the flagstick. Many people have never looked at the equipment rules to understand what the limitations on the flagstick really are. To be honest, I believe that selection of a specific flagstick does have the potential to do just that, completely within the rules.

[deadsolid...shank]

They could just make the sticks bigger...

 

 

 

Yep. Just have pins made that repel balls. Easy peasy. Phil will have them tended from 170 and in.

 

This is an example of what I mentioned in the other thread; about reading subsequent posts before answering one.

 

The answer was already posted; that larger than .75 inch are ILLEGAL according to the rules.

 

The diameter of the pin is not allowed to be greater than 0.75 inches. Most of us are accustomed to 0.5" diameter pins, so using the maximum size could at least change the statistics around leaving the pin in, to the point where VERY few players would do it. Its interesting that, prior to Jan 1, there was a recommendation that the flagstick be no larger than 0.75", but not a specific requirement.

 

 

If the talk is about them ignoring a rule about the whether the stick is in or not, why is it different to think they could ignore a rule about the size of the stick?

You'd have to ask PZero and blade, but I took their comments as trying to find a way within the USGA rules to encourage (or force) players to remove the flagstick. Many people have never looked at the equipment rules to understand what the limitations on the flagstick really are. To be honest, I believe that selection of a specific flagstick does have the potential to do just that, completely within the rules.

 

Ok, I didn’t read it that way but it does makes sense. I think someone mentioned those big heavy metal sticks just s few posts up. That probably would do the trick, I doubt many would leave it in.

[new2g0lf]

Bryson said his decision to leave the stick in or out would be dependent on the stick used so evidently there are some types of sticks that will discourage him and others from leaving it in. It will be interesting to see at end of year if putting statistics improve and if so, how much will be attributed to leaving the sticks in.

[farmer]

ANGC will absolutely conduct the Masters by the RoG. To suggest otherwise is just ... foolish.

[bladehunter]

They could just make the sticks bigger...

 

 

 

Yep. Just have pins made that repel balls. Easy peasy. Phil will have them tended from 170 and in.

 

This is an example of what I mentioned in the other thread; about reading subsequent posts before answering one.

 

The answer was already posted; that larger than .75 inch are ILLEGAL according to the rules.

 

The diameter of the pin is not allowed to be greater than 0.75 inches. Most of us are accustomed to 0.5" diameter pins, so using the maximum size could at least change the statistics around leaving the pin in, to the point where VERY few players would do it. Its interesting that, prior to Jan 1, there was a recommendation that the flagstick be no larger than 0.75", but not a specific requirement.

 

Alll info I know. 0.75 is 1/4 inch bigger than the normal pga tour stick. And will make a difference. I quoted a guy who said the same. No dillusion that it was an original thought.

[bladehunter]

Shank-

 

 

I have an artificial putting green at home. And in two of the 6 hole locations I have pins and flags. The outside pin has normal fiberglass pin .. but the centernost one has a short fat metal pin . One of the high wind models. That thing rejects the ball no doubt if it hit it with any speed.

[MidwestGolfBum]

Shank-

 

 

I have an artificial putting green at home. And in two of the 6 hole locations I have pins and flags. The outside pin has normal fiberglass pin .. but the centernost one has a short fat metal pin . One of the high wind models. That thing rejects the ball no doubt if it hit it with any speed.

 

This helps to reinforce my post above about the sticks we had at my club for a while. The metal ones just don't let balls with any kind of speed go in. If ANGC really wanted the flags to come out and stay within the USGA/R&A rules, this would be about their only option and still doesn't guarantee anything.

[augustgolf]

 

What would happen if the flagstick gets too large in diameter

 

(BTW - that's a Scotsman actually tossing a caber, not "removing the flagstick at The Masters)

[smashdn]

People forget that the "committee" at ANGC couldn't even handle a drop procedure correctly..

 

???? please explain.

 

If they could have, they would have let Tiger off scot free.

 

I don't understand your comment. Tiger clearly violated the rules. ANGC penalized him. What other action could have been done?

 

I believe, but am not sure, that playing from a wrong place and NOT subsequently correcting it, used to be a DQ. :dntknw:

 

What I was thinking as I was attempting to quote each of these posts. TW should have been dq'ed under the rules but they let him slide with a two stroke penalty IIRC.

 

ANGC/The Masters wanted TW in the tourney not at home.

[ThinkingPlus]

 

What would happen if the flagstick gets too large in diameter

 

(BTW - that's a Scotsman actually tossing a caber, not "removing the flagstick at The Masters)

The pin would be in violation of the RoG.

[Maximilian]

 

(BTW - that's a Scotsman actually tossing a caber, not "removing the flagstick at The Masters)

 

And here I thought he was just happy to see me. :-(

[Vindog]

People forget that the "committee" at ANGC couldn't even handle a drop procedure correctly..

 

???? please explain.

 

If they could have, they would have let Tiger off scot free.

 

I don't understand your comment. Tiger clearly violated the rules. ANGC penalized him. What other action could have been done?

 

The Masters Committee initially rules that Tiger's drop was fine, when in fact it was yards away according to Tiger's admission. Posters on WRX who aren't even referees noticed that the drop was on the wrong spot. The committee with all of their reviews and angles couldn't (didn't) get that one right. When Tiger admitted to dropping farther back from the spot they had to reluctantly penalize him. So again, If they could have, they would have let him off scot free, but they ended up with eggy face instead, because they couldn't figure out a simple drop procedure.

[Vindog]

I believe, but am not sure, that playing from a wrong place and NOT subsequently correcting it, used to be a DQ. :dntknw:

 

What I was thinking as I was attempting to quote each of these posts. TW should have been dq'ed under the rules but they let him slide with a two stroke penalty IIRC.

 

ANGC/The Masters wanted TW in the tourney not at home.

 

Well, Tiger was the beneficiary of a new at the time decision allowing DQ to be taken off the table. But here's the rub...

 

You know how viewer call ins are universally hated? And we all just want them to die? Well it was actually the viewer call in that saved Tiger from DQ, since the committe (for whatever reason) couldn't figure out the drop procedure, and at first ruled no penalty.

[Gautama]

1. Augusta could use pins that aren’t conducive to keeping them in for putts if they want to negate this awful rule.

2. I may puke if I see someone win the masters this year with a putt on 18 that clanks in off the flag stick.

 

Didn't read this thread last your post...sums up my feelings exactly. I don't care what anyone says, this rule is an abomination and I suspect/pray isn't long for this world.

[dalehead]

Why would they possibly care?

Trying to figure this out too.

 

Somebody clanks one in coming down the stretch or the 18th hole to win the Masters.

 

How would you feel if someone "clanked in" their approach shot for eagle on the 18th hole to win the Masters?

[ThinkingPlus]

Why would they possibly care?

Trying to figure this out too.

 

Somebody clanks one in coming down the stretch or the 18th hole to win the Masters.

 

How would you feel if someone "clanked in" their approach shot for eagle on the 18th hole to win the Masters?

It would be considered one of the greatest shots in major championship history. Walk off eagle for the win.

[Mudguard]

1. Augusta could use pins that aren’t conducive to keeping them in for putts if they want to negate this awful rule.

2. I may puke if I see someone win the masters this year with a putt on 18 that clanks in off the flag stick.

 

Didn't read this thread last your post...sums up my feelings exactly. I don't care what anyone says, this rule is an abomination and I suspect/pray isn't long for this world.

 

Well I felt that way about anchoring and the rule is still unchanged..