Yet another penalty around new rules error

[nsxguy]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is Erik's website?

https://thesandtrap.com/

and

https://rulesgeeks.com/

 

Yup, I used to participate in Sandtrap but got fed up with Erik's arrogance. It is his way or the highway. A typical example of a person with compulsive need to be correct, just like bosses used to be some 100 years ago.

 

I remember a swisstrader type of guy there a few years ago. Erik suspended him until he read Tufts. The guy came back briefly and no longer embarrassed himself. ;)

And I should be suspended for having a POV that differs from yours? If the rules geek guy had to do so, it's pretty obvious that he felt threatened by the guy.

 

He didn't say that - but then you don't care,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Newby]

don't allow them to help in any way

That would cause uproar outside the realms of pro golf. Caddies are part of the history (and in some parts of the world part of the local economy).

 

Yes, I was fully aware of the ramifications of that "option" - and it was a big part of the point I was attempting to make.

I've just added another point.

[nsxguy]

Based on GC comments last night the rule and/or decision is flawed

 

I like to argue about updating a poorly written rule. NOT enforcing a bad rule as it stands currently written. 2 different scenarios

 

As it is written now, caddie has no intent to line up player .. is it not no penalty?

 

Hitem already told you but here's the RULE. The clarification doesn't alter the "deliberately" part.

 

“When a player begins taking a stance for the stroke and until the stroke is made, the player’s caddie must not deliberately stand in a location on or close to the player’s line of play behind the ball for any reason. If the player takes a stance in breach of this Rule, he or she cannot avoid penalty by backing away.”

 

 

The PGA tour guys are being penalized for a rule written expressly to the stop the LPGA nonsense that was going on and now guys are arguing The RULE IS THE RULE .. really???

 

I know nothing will convince you but here again are the major changes and the reasons for them. I'm sure you won't like some/many/most(?) of them but yes, the Rule's the Rule.

 

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/rules/rules-modernization/golf-new-rules/Explanation%20for%20Each%20Major%20Change%20in%20the%20New%20Rules%20of%20Golf%20for%202019%20(1).pdf

[Stuart_G]

I've just added another point.

 

I never got that impression (especially considering how long some players take at that even w/o a caddie behind them). To be honest, I suspected it was more about the appearance it gives than how long it takes. It wouldn't be the first time 'appearance' played a role in a rules change - but I could be wrong. Either way I can only really work in good faith with the 'official' arguments for the change. Working purely on supposition doesn't really get us very far.

[davep043]

To me, rules are generally better, clearer and more enforceable, when they evaluate specific behavior, rather than intent. I think this one they got reasonably right.

 

Well I agree with the first part - but not the second. It's too restrictive IMO since it supports penalties even when the action the rule is intended to prevent is not occurring.

 

But I can't say I have any better ideas - even an intent based version would require written clarification of what exactly the caddie is not allowed to do - which brings us back to the exact same problem as before. For me, the lesser of the two evils would be to dump the new rule all together. Once you grant the caddie the ability to give advice to their player, trying to restrict that advice in some cases but not others is a bit inconsistent.

 

Just look at the new rules for the yardage books and greens diagram. The argument there is that green reading is a skill (just like lining up is supposed to be a skill the player should master) yet the caddie can still help the player read the green. Picking a club, judging yardages, effect of wind or temperature, what to think during the shot, how to stay calm, ..... the list is endless of what could be considered a skill or not. Yet the caddie can help and assist the player on all those other aspects of playing the game. IMO, either don't allow them to help in any way - or don't restrict them in any way. Anything between seems just a bit too contrived and arbitrary to me.

I believe they've tried to draw a line between planning for a shot, and physically executing the shot. Its definitely a subjective decision, but with that rationale, the "physical" part starts with alignment, so I think the line makes sense. and if you allow the caddies role to extend into the physical execution, another can of worms opens. Can the caddie touch the player, nudge his shoulder into a better position, pr position his hands differently on the grip? Can the caddie shelter him with an umbrella? To me, the division makes sense.

With the green books, I think they were caught between a long tradition where yardage books were acceptable, and the new laser-surveyed technological marvels we now have. It had to be difficult finding how to draw a limit with those.

[nsxguy]

To a certain extent, knowledge and understanding of the rules is a reasonable prerequisite for discussing the rules. Hell, it would make a reasonable prerequisite for making a living playing golf. Don't lawyers and doctors and accountants and engineers and hairdressers and lots of other people have to show they understand the rules governing their profession?

 

Sure, doctors and lawyers have a set of rules or standards they need to abide by but let's starts with the simple fact that this isn't heart surgery...It's a sport that should have a simple, logical and straightforward set of rules that govern the sport.

 

But for argument's sake, let's take a physician' AMA Code of Ethics as an example and to be fair, these are not laws but rather a set of standards that physicians are expected to abide by. However, if you read the principles of medical ethics, there's not a single word that's spoken in anything other than plain and simple English. It's not open to interpretation or requiring a degree in linguistics to figure out what the AMA's intent behind a certain principle is/was.

 

Take a look at the Code of Ethics below and then put that side by side with the USGA rule book and tell me which is more understandable.

 

AMA CODE OF MEDICAL ETHICS AMA PRINCIPLES OF MEDICAL ETHICS∗

The medical profession has long subscribed to a body of ethical statements developed primarily for the benefit of the patient. As a member of this profession, a physician must recognize responsibility to patients first and foremost, as well as to society, to other health professionals, and to self. The following Principles adopted by the American Medical Association are not laws, but standards of conduct that define the essentials of honorable behavior for the physician.

Principles of medical ethics

I. A physician shall be dedicated to providing competent medical care, with compassion and respect for human dignity and rights.

II. A physician shall uphold the standards of professionalism, be honest in all professional interactions, and strive to report physicians deficient in character or competence, or engaging in fraud or deception, to appropriate entities.

III. A physician shall respect the law and also recognize a responsibility to seek changes in those requirements which are contrary to the best interests of the patient.

IV. A physician shall respect the rights of patients, colleagues, and other health professionals, and shall safeguard patient confidences and privacy within the constraints of the law.

V. A physician shall continue to study, apply, and advance scientific knowledge, maintain a commitment to medical education, make relevant information available to patients, colleagues, and the public, obtain consultation, and use the talents of other health professionals when indicated.

VI. A physician shall, in the provision of appropriate patient care, except in emergencies, be free to choose whom to serve, with whom to associate, and the environment in which to provide medical care.

VII. A physician shall recognize a responsibility to participate in activities contributing to the improvement of the community and the betterment of public health.

VIII. A physician shall, while caring for a patient, regard responsibility to the patient as paramount. IX. A physician shall support access to medical care for all people.

Is that really the complete regulations that physicians are required to abide by? I'm guessing its probably not. But that bit is probably comparable to this much of the Rules of Golf:

All players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

• Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.
  
• Showing consideration to others – for example, by playing at a prompt pace, looking out for the safety of others, and not distracting the play of another player.
  
• Taking good care of the course – for example, by replacing divots, smoothing bunkers, repairing ball-marks, and not causing unnecessary damage to the course.
  

 

And I'm more than willing to go back to the original 14 rules. No drops for obstructions, no drops for temporary water, no lifting the ball on the green, simple, put it on a tee, and pick it out of the hole.

 

The wailing wall needed would put the Great Wall of China to shame,,,,,,,,,,, but at least it would take care of the "I want relief from a divot" discussion. :lol:

[deadsolid...shank]

How about something as simple as “if the player has a club in his hand, caddie must be off the line”. Then there won’t be any question of if he is taking a stance.

 

It seems simple to me, so I must be missing something obvious.

[KevCarter]

How about something as simple as “if the player has a club in his hand, caddie must be off the line”. Then there won’t be any question of if he is taking a stance.

 

It seems simple to me, so I must be missing something obvious.

 

I really like it for full shots, but may not work on the green? They walk around with putter in hand reading the green, and I don't know if we want to take that away from them?

[KevCarter]

How about something as simple as “if the player has a club in his hand, caddie must be off the line”. Then there won’t be any question of if he is taking a stance.

 

It seems simple to me, so I must be missing something obvious.

 

I really like it for full shots, but may not work on the green? They walk around with putter in hand reading the green, and I don't know if we want to take that away from them?

 

May be the same issue for chipping?

[deadsolid...shank]

True Kev, good points. Although it would sure speed things up on and around the greens!

[Newby]

A unexpected view from a journalist

 

golfweek.com/2019/02/26/new-rules-of-golf-martin-slumbers-r-a/

[KevCarter]

True Kev, good points. Although it would sure speed things up on and around the greens!��

 

:good: :good: :good: :good: :good: :good:

[Mr. Bean]

A unexpected view from a journalist

 

golfweek.com/2019/02/26/new-rules-of-golf-martin-slumbers-r-a/

 

Sounds like a journalist with a brain. Rather unusual.

[KevCarter]

A unexpected view from a journalist

 

golfweek.com/2019/02/26/new-rules-of-golf-martin-slumbers-r-a/

 

I'm a little ashamed to say I hadn't heard of Mr. Slumbers a couple of weeks ago. The more I read his quotes, the more I like him. It also sounds as though the European Tour players are being much more respectful and are doing a better job of understanding what a huge task this was. Like Mr. Slumbers, everyone needs to take a step back and realize it's a work in progress, and not every change is going to be popular with every player. JMO

[Shilgy]

A unexpected view from a journalist

 

golfweek.com/2019/02/26/new-rules-of-golf-martin-slumbers-r-a/

 

I'm a little ashamed to say I hadn't heard of Mr. Slumbers a couple of weeks ago. The more I read his quotes, the more I like him. It also sounds as though the European Tour players are being much more respectful and are doing a better job of understanding what a huge task this was. Like Mr. Slumbers, everyone needs to take a step back and realize it's a work in progress, and not every change is going to be popular with every player. JMO

The funny thing to me is that the guys that don't like change...those complaining about the rules.... jump all over Mr Slumbers comment as saying the R&A gets it and admits the rules are not well done. Others, including myself, see his comments more as being pointed at the transition as a whole, and in this case as really being Fowler's fault, rather than an admission at all.

 

“There’s been some unfortunate situations, no doubt about that,” Slumbers said. “It hasn’t gone as smoothly as I would have liked.”

 

One change didn’t exactly go smoothly in last week’s WGC-Mexico Championship.

 

Rickie Fowler suffered a one-shot penalty for an illegal drop during the second round. Fowler dropped the ball from shoulder height instead of the current knee-high requirement. Fowler called the new rule “a terrible change.”

 

While Slumbers admitted the situation was unfortunate, he appeared to put the blame firmly on Fowler’s shoulders: “As professionals, we all have to know the rules, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s golf or anything,” Slumbers said. “I think that it was very unfortunate, that situation, and a couple of the others, but the rules are an important part of our game.”

[LeoLeo99]

A unexpected view from a journalist

 

golfweek.com/2019/02/26/new-rules-of-golf-martin-slumbers-r-a/

 

I'm a little ashamed to say I hadn't heard of Mr. Slumbers a couple of weeks ago. The more I read his quotes, the more I like him. It also sounds as though the European Tour players are being much more respectful and are doing a better job of understanding what a huge task this was. Like Mr. Slumbers, everyone needs to take a step back and realize it's a work in progress, and not every change is going to be popular with every player. JMO

 

I think you're just stating the obvious. Just like Mr. Slumbers. Things are more respectful on the European Tour. That's a two way street.

[Augster]

I guess I don’t understand why the PGA guys are having such a tough time understanding not to have the caddie behind them when they go to address the ball. There is no intent in the rule change. The ruling bodies just don’t want a caddie or partner back there. Why? Because they say so.

 

I liken it to the teeing ground. We are only allowed 2CLs back from the markers. What’s next? Guys teeing it up 3 CLs back from the markers, getting penalized, then saying the rule is stupid? It’s completely arbitrary and made up out of thin air why we only get 2CLs. Basically because they say so. A guy teeing 3CLs back doesn’t gain an advantage. His intent is to tee within the teeing area, but he failed. Where is the outrage for this injustice?

 

The Fowler drop floors me. The rule has been in place for 2 months. He’s already played tourneys this year under the new drop rules. In reality, I blame his caddie more than him for the mess up. Where was he? Seeing your player drop from shoulder height when every other drop you’ve seen this year has been knee height, and a point of emphasis, and you don’t notice the breach? What is he being paid for? To carry clubs? How could both of them not notice? It’s perplexing.

[Newby]

This was what I meant to post

 

golfweek.com/2019/03/04/golf-new-rules-whining-players/

[Stuart_G]

The Fowler drop floors me. The rule has been in place for 2 months. He's already played tourneys this year under the new drop rules. In reality, I blame his caddie more than him for the mess up. Where was he? Seeing your player drop from shoulder height when every other drop you've seen this year has been knee height, and a point of emphasis, and you don't notice the breach? What is he being paid for? To carry clubs? How could both of them not notice? It's perplexing.

 

It really shouldn't be - it's actually very predictable and I"m surprised it hasn't happened more. Human beings are creatures of habit. Any habit ingrained for a lifetime is going to take more than a few repetitions of a new pattern to change - particularly when that act has been a very trivial part of the game and the mind is usually busy on weightier things when they do it.

 

Same applies to the the routine of the player and caddie around the ball during a pre-shot routine. You can't just say "just don't do it anymore" and expect it to be easy or that simple when you're talking about something they've been doing habitually (without conscious thought) for years or even decades in the case of many of the caddies on tour. Sorry but two months is a blink of the eye in that context.

 

Sure, the mindsets will eventually change and patterns will be relearned and these things will no longer be an issue, but to think it should happen overnight w/o incidents is a bit unrealistic.

 

And for Rickie's drop, it wasn't the Caddie's fault either. Rickie did the drop so fast, the caddie was still putting the sleeve of balls (he got the new ball from) back in the bag and didn't have any time to look up.

[QEight]

The Fowler drop floors me. The rule has been in place for 2 months. He's already played tourneys this year under the new drop rules. In reality, I blame his caddie more than him for the mess up. Where was he? Seeing your player drop from shoulder height when every other drop you've seen this year has been knee height, and a point of emphasis, and you don't notice the breach? What is he being paid for? To carry clubs? How could both of them not notice? It's perplexing.

 

It really shouldn't be - it's actually very predictable and I"m surprised it hasn't happened more. Human beings are creatures of habit. Any habit ingrained for a lifetime is going to take more than a few repetitions of a new pattern to change - particularly when that act has been a very trivial part of the game and the mind is usually busy on weightier things when they do it.

 

Same applies to the the routine of the player and caddie around the ball during a pre-shot routine. You can't just say "just don't do it anymore" and expect it to be easy or that simple when you're talking about something they've been doing habitually (without conscious thought) for years or even decades in the case of many of the caddies on tour. Sorry but two months is a blink of the eye in that context.

 

Sure, the mindsets will eventually change and patterns will be relearned and these things will no longer be an issue, but to think it should happen overnight w/o incidents is a bit unrealistic.

 

And for Rickie's drop, it wasn't the Caddie's fault either. Rickie did the drop so fast, the caddie was still putting the sleeve of balls (he got the new ball from) back in the bag and didn't have any time to look up.

 

To my understanding Rickie had dropped successfully this year already. So he knew but was probably numb after a shank to OB.

[Stuart_G]

I believe they've tried to draw a line between planning for a shot, and physically executing the shot. Its definitely a subjective decision, but with that rationale, the "physical" part starts with alignment, so I think the line makes sense. and if you allow the caddies role to extend into the physical execution, another can of worms opens. Can the caddie touch the player, nudge his shoulder into a better position, pr position his hands differently on the grip? Can the caddie shelter him with an umbrella? To me, the division makes sense.

 

I can understand such a distinction in theory but I still don't think it's as clear a distinction as one might think in practice - and certainly not one that is clear to put into words within the rules. While I understand the distinction they are trying to make, is there really that much of a difference between "aim at that person" vs "aim a little more left"? Not in my mind - but then I've never pretended to have the same thought process as others :-).

[Stuart_G]

To my understanding Rickie had dropped successfully this year already. So he knew but was probably numb after a shank to OB.

 

Agree. I don't think there is any question that his mind was on other things and the drop was a result of reverting back to an ingrained habit. Which was my point - and such behavior is a very natural thing and shouldn't really be surprising in the least.

 

And it has nothing to do with whether the change is good, bad or anywhere in between - it's not a reflection at all on the quality of the change, just a natural part of the process of change. It's just unfortunate that consequences are expensive (for the pros) - which makes their complaints at least understandable - which is not the same as saying it's a valid reason not to make the change.

[LeoLeo99]

This was what I meant to post

 

golfweek.com/2019/03/04/golf-new-rules-whining-players/

 

A bit of hyperbole. Did usga pay him to write that?

 

The ever judicious Davis?

 

This gem of exaggeration?

 

It’s a refrain now so familiar on the PGA Tour that some weeks rules officials-turned-nannies like Slugger White and Mark Russell get almost as much TV screen time as the winner.

 

No. Slugger never received almost as much TV time as the winner. How can you take the writer seriously when he writes stuff like this?

 

 

 

[antip]

The Fowler drop floors me. The rule has been in place for 2 months. He's already played tourneys this year under the new drop rules. In reality, I blame his caddie more than him for the mess up. Where was he? Seeing your player drop from shoulder height when every other drop you've seen this year has been knee height, and a point of emphasis, and you don't notice the breach? What is he being paid for? To carry clubs? How could both of them not notice? It's perplexing.

 

It really shouldn't be - it's actually very predictable and I"m surprised it hasn't happened more. Human beings are creatures of habit. Any habit ingrained for a lifetime is going to take more than a few repetitions of a new pattern to change - particularly when that act has been a very trivial part of the game and the mind is usually busy on weightier things when they do it.

 

Same applies to the the routine of the player and caddie around the ball during a pre-shot routine. You can't just say "just don't do it anymore" and expect it to be easy or that simple when you're talking about something they've been doing habitually (without conscious thought) for years or even decades in the case of many of the caddies on tour. Sorry but two months is a blink of the eye in that context.

 

Sure, the mindsets will eventually change and patterns will be relearned and these things will no longer be an issue, but to think it should happen overnight w/o incidents is a bit unrealistic.

 

And for Rickie's drop, it wasn't the Caddie's fault either. Rickie did the drop so fast, the caddie was still putting the sleeve of balls (he got the new ball from) back in the bag and didn't have any time to look up.

Absolutely agree. When your mind is on other things, the routine habit well ingrained surfaces. Match play last week, old farts scratch pennants, close, good quality match and at one point with a cart path drop I'm absent mindedly standing there with my arm straight out at shoulder height and my opponent goes "whoa there Ned, we're at knee height now". I'd like to think my brain was going to get there before letting it go, but......

[Sawgrass]

The Fowler drop floors me. The rule has been in place for 2 months. He's already played tourneys this year under the new drop rules. In reality, I blame his caddie more than him for the mess up. Where was he? Seeing your player drop from shoulder height when every other drop you've seen this year has been knee height, and a point of emphasis, and you don't notice the breach? What is he being paid for? To carry clubs? How could both of them not notice? It's perplexing.

 

It really shouldn't be - it's actually very predictable and I"m surprised it hasn't happened more. Human beings are creatures of habit. Any habit ingrained for a lifetime is going to take more than a few repetitions of a new pattern to change - particularly when that act has been a very trivial part of the game and the mind is usually busy on weightier things when they do it.

 

Same applies to the the routine of the player and caddie around the ball during a pre-shot routine. You can't just say "just don't do it anymore" and expect it to be easy or that simple when you're talking about something they've been doing habitually (without conscious thought) for years or even decades in the case of many of the caddies on tour. Sorry but two months is a blink of the eye in that context.

 

Sure, the mindsets will eventually change and patterns will be relearned and these things will no longer be an issue, but to think it should happen overnight w/o incidents is a bit unrealistic.

 

And for Rickie's drop, it wasn't the Caddie's fault either. Rickie did the drop so fast, the caddie was still putting the sleeve of balls (he got the new ball from) back in the bag and didn't have any time to look up.

Absolutely agree. When your mind is on other things, the routine habit well ingrained surfaces. Match play last week, old farts scratch pennants, close, good quality match and at one point with a cart path drop I'm absent mindedly standing there with my arm straight out at shoulder height and my opponent goes "whoa there Ned, we're at knee height now". I'd like to think my brain was going to get there before letting it go, but......

It's easy to understand making a mistake like this out of habit. It's not so easy to understand the impulse to blame someone else for your mistake . . . unless that's your habit too.

[davep043]

This was what I meant to post

 

golfweek.com/2019/03/04/golf-new-rules-whining-players/

 

A bit of hyperbole. Did usga pay him to write that?

 

The ever judicious Davis?

 

This gem of exaggeration?

 

It's a refrain now so familiar on the PGA Tour that some weeks rules officials-turned-nannies like Slugger White and Mark Russell get almost as much TV screen time as the winner.

 

No. Slugger never received almost as much TV time as the winner. How can you take the writer seriously when he writes stuff like this?

Exaggeration does make a point sometimes. It wouldn't be as effective to say "Slugger White's air time is up from 3 minutes in 2018 to 12 minutes this season". the writer makes a number of fair points, and makes some typical exaggerations. There doesn't seem to be any exaggeration in this:

The new rules were made public in March 2018 — nine months before they took effect. USGA officials attended player meetings and held one-on-one conversations at tournaments in advance of the rollout. Despite that outreach, plenty of players are peddling a narrative that blames their own ignorance on the USGA. It’s unsurprising. The blazers are the softest target in golf, portrayed as humorless scolds legislating all the fun out of the game.

This is pretty much on the mark too:

The problem is that Tour players seem less interested in providing insight than in shifting blame.

Have you heard a player make an actual constructive suggestion yet? All I've heard is "This rule is stupid".

[bladehunter]

Or maybe they will change because the original ruling was about the LPGA, not the PGA.

 

There were close to ZERO incidents of caddies on the tour using caddies to line up shots of players.

If it was just the ladies why are the men's caddies just now starting to do it when it's against the rules?

 

Why ? Come on man. You know that isn’t the truth. The LPGA players were being physically lined up. As in feet , clubface etc to the target. Not even close to the same thing.

 

 

I say that and I also agree that the rule as is can work now that they have the reset option. Just have to be aware and back off. Which doesn’t help pace , but is fair.

[sdandrea]

It's a ponderous fustercluck.

[Stuart_G]

It's easy to understand making a mistake like this out of habit. It's not so easy to understand the impulse to blame someone else for your mistake . . . unless that's your habit too.

 

You mean it really isn't productive to just call a rule stupid because you don't like it???

 

 

But to be fair, assigning blame and expressing dissatisfaction with a particular change are not really the same thing. Now, it would be nice to see a bit more substance in the nature of the dissatisfaction - but that's a different tangent to the discussion.

[davep043]

It's easy to understand making a mistake like this out of habit. It's not so easy to understand the impulse to blame someone else for your mistake . . . unless that's your habit too.

 

You mean it really isn't productive to just call a rule stupid because you don't like it???

 

 

But to be fair, assigning blame and expressing dissatisfaction with a particular change are not really the same thing. Now, it would be nice to see a bit more substance in the nature of the dissatisfaction - but that's a different tangent to the discussion.

Amen. Saying that all the new rules are "terrible", saying the drop "looks silly" aren't really substantive or constructive. But substantive and constructive require dedicating some time to reading stuff, to watching the videos explaining the rules, and writing more than 200-some characters. And JT said, he can't do any of that on the weeks he's playing, he has to concentrate on playing. The days are just too short.