Yet another penalty around new rules error

[GoGoErky]

I think a better term is 'beginners' mistake. And the pro's are no less a beginner when it comes to the changes than anyone else.

 

True, the consequences are more severe - which means a greater incentive. But that doesn't mean relearning the behavior is any easier for them. In fact, I'd argue that it's actually harder for them since they've spent WAY more time ingraining the previously acceptable behavioral patterns than any amateur has. On top of that, the mental effort and energy that goes into the other aspects of playing is much higher than any amateur - so the potential distractions are much higher and the 'available' rmental effort to make such a change is reduced when compared to the casual golfer.

 

Both caddies and players have had a few months prior to the TOC to read and learn the rules plus 2 months of plaingvubder them. Considering their livelihoods are dependent on how they finish an event one would thing they would be beyond "beginner" mentality with the rules.

 

The term "beginner" your referencing has nothing to do with mentality. It's only about exposure time and actual level of experience.

 

It takes a lot more to change behavior than just reading a book and wanting to change. If it were that simple, everyone would have perfect success with all their New Year's resolutions.

 

When ones job relies on playing by a set of rules it behooves the person to take the time to learn the rules. Brain farts happen all the time and that’s been the issue with the recent rulings. Once the rules orgs clarified the ruling about taking a stance when a caddie is behind a player it’s been all player or caddie fault. The funny thing is the lpga and euro tour had the same amount of time to learn the rules and the caddie alignment was a staple of the lpga yet they haven’t had any publicized issues.

 

These are professionals and they have the ability to learn the rules. Rickie has no issue with knowing yo drop from the knee at WMO but yet a couple weeks later he dropped from the shoulder and hit penalized an then the drop rule became an issue for him

[SNIPERBBB]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

[ThinkingPlus]

Generally the guys have too much ego to allow the caddie to help align them (especially putting). The peer pressure and razzing would be thunderous. The women are more pragmatic. It's a paycheck. Any thing within the rules that puts more coin in the piggy bank is fair game no matter what it looks like.

[deadsolid...shank]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

 

Check out post #199. That’s the one being replied to.

[SNIPERBBB]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

 

Check out post #199. That’s the one being replied to.

If thats the case, someone isnt watching the PGA tour very closely either.

[Shilgy]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

 

Check out post #199. That’s the one being replied to.

My post never said the ladies weren't being lined up. I said two things. One, the ladies were not being "adjusted" in their alignment. It was a crutch on their part and a bad optic. I'll add and agree it probably was a lot of the reason the rule was put into place.

Two, the men did it to, not as often but it seems now they did it a lot more than people noticed. Either that or they just now decided to start the practice.

Which seems more likely? That they just now started doing it or that they did before?

[deadsolid...shank]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

 

Check out post #199. That’s the one being replied to.

My post never said the ladies weren't being lined up. I said two things. One, the ladies were not being "adjusted" in their alignment. It was a crutch on their part and a bad optic. I'll add and agree it probably was a lot of the reason the rule was put into place.

Two, the men did it to, not as often but it seems now they did it a lot more than people noticed. Either that or they just now decided to start the practice.

Which seems more likely? That they just now started doing it or that they did before?

 

I don’t recall with the men ever thinking, “that caddie isn’t going to get moved in time”. That was a regular occurrence with the women. The caddie barely moved before the lady swings, they’re usually about two steps away at the most.

 

The caddie for the men were usually there only briefly before stepping away. It’s just that now the penalty can (and is) occuring early because it’s when they start to take their stance. Does anyone recall ever thinking the men getting alignment help was a noticeable problem? I donkt think so. But with the women this was talked about extensively here.

[Shilgy]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

 

Check out post #199. That’s the one being replied to.

My post never said the ladies weren't being lined up. I said two things. One, the ladies were not being "adjusted" in their alignment. It was a crutch on their part and a bad optic. I'll add and agree it probably was a lot of the reason the rule was put into place.

Two, the men did it to, not as often but it seems now they did it a lot more than people noticed. Either that or they just now decided to start the practice.

Which seems more likely? That they just now started doing it or that they did before?

 

I don’t recall with the men ever thinking, “that caddie isn’t going to get moved in time”. That was a regular occurrence with the women. The caddie barely moved before the lady swings, they’re usually about two steps away at the most.

 

The caddie for the men were usually there only briefly before stepping away. It’s just that now the penalty can (and is) occuring early because it’s when they start to take their stance. Does anyone recall ever thinking the men getting alignment help was a noticeable problem? I donkt think so. But with the women this was talked about extensively here.

Send like we're getting there. At the beginning of the thread it was "the men NEVER had the caddie looking them up". Now one post says almost never and you say it was briefer than the women.

Does it matter how brief it was really? All the ladies caddie ever did was confirm alignment. Not straighten them out. Now they're not doing it anywhere near the same as before but the men are getting caught seemingly ever event.

[Swisstrader98]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

 

Check out post #199. That’s the one being replied to.

My post never said the ladies weren't being lined up. I said two things. One, the ladies were not being "adjusted" in their alignment. It was a crutch on their part and a bad optic. I'll add and agree it probably was a lot of the reason the rule was put into place.

Two, the men did it to, not as often but it seems now they did it a lot more than people noticed. Either that or they just now decided to start the practice.

Which seems more likely? That they just now started doing it or that they did before?

 

I don’t recall with the men ever thinking, “that caddie isn’t going to get moved in time”. That was a regular occurrence with the women. The caddie barely moved before the lady swings, they’re usually about two steps away at the most.

 

The caddie for the men were usually there only briefly before stepping away. It’s just that now the penalty can (and is) occuring early because it’s when they start to take their stance. Does anyone recall ever thinking the men getting alignment help was a noticeable problem? I donkt think so. But with the women this was talked about extensively here.

Send like we're getting there. At the beginning of the thread it was "the men NEVER had the caddie looking them up". Now one post says almost never and you say it was briefer than the women.

Does it matter how brief it was really? All the ladies caddie ever did was confirm alignment. Not straighten them out. Now they're not doing it anywhere near the same as before but the men are getting caught seemingly ever event.

 

Unreal that you continue to believe that this rule was just as much about the men being lined up as the women. From the get go, EVERYONE agreed that the rule change came about because it was a terrible look on the LPGA tour and it was happening with A LOT of them. The REVERSE of that was true on the PGA tour, meaning close to none of their putts were being lined up by caddies.

 

What is it you’re not getting??

[deadsolid...shank]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

 

Check out post #199. That’s the one being replied to.

My post never said the ladies weren't being lined up. I said two things. One, the ladies were not being "adjusted" in their alignment. It was a crutch on their part and a bad optic. I'll add and agree it probably was a lot of the reason the rule was put into place.

Two, the men did it to, not as often but it seems now they did it a lot more than people noticed. Either that or they just now decided to start the practice.

Which seems more likely? That they just now started doing it or that they did before?

 

I don’t recall with the men ever thinking, “that caddie isn’t going to get moved in time”. That was a regular occurrence with the women. The caddie barely moved before the lady swings, they’re usually about two steps away at the most.

 

The caddie for the men were usually there only briefly before stepping away. It’s just that now the penalty can (and is) occuring early because it’s when they start to take their stance. Does anyone recall ever thinking the men getting alignment help was a noticeable problem? I donkt think so. But with the women this was talked about extensively here.

Send like we're getting there. At the beginning of the thread it was "the men NEVER had the caddie looking them up". Now one post says almost never and you say it was briefer than the women.

Does it matter how brief it was really? All the ladies caddie ever did was confirm alignment. Not straighten them out. Now they're not doing it anywhere near the same as before but the men are getting caught seemingly ever event.

 

I don’t know if they ever adjusted the them or not, and I’ll agree I really don’t remember that happening. You’re correct, they stayed behind them so long it really looked bad. But I also do think the lining up process was much much more prevalent with the women. I’ve seen more men’s caddies standing perpendicular to the line while talking to their player than I’ve seen them behind them. As soon as player/caddie agree on the club/shot, the caddie backs away. I do still think this is more the norm for the men than the caddie behind them. But I could be remembering wrong too.

[davep043]

I recently started wondering, why wasn't the old rule criticized? A caddie or partner couldn't stand behind the player while he made his stroke. Aside from a partner getting a read on his putt, what could the caddie have helped with while the swing was going on? Wasn't THAT rule the "stupid" one? Yet we never heard a complaint, not once that I can ever remember. And now they actually DO have a reason for extending the time period, the caddie actually CAN do something while the player is taking a stance. You may not agree that a caddie aligning his player should be banned, you may not agree with its implementation, but there's actually a specific reason for the new rule, and there didn't seem to be one for the old rule.

 

Players (and caddies) just hate being forced to change their habits.

[Shilgy]

 

Check out post #199. That's the one being replied to.

My post never said the ladies weren't being lined up. I said two things. One, the ladies were not being "adjusted" in their alignment. It was a crutch on their part and a bad optic. I'll add and agree it probably was a lot of the reason the rule was put into place.

Two, the men did it to, not as often but it seems now they did it a lot more than people noticed. Either that or they just now decided to start the practice.

Which seems more likely? That they just now started doing it or that they did before?

 

I don't recall with the men ever thinking, "that caddie isn't going to get moved in time". That was a regular occurrence with the women. The caddie barely moved before the lady swings, they're usually about two steps away at the most.

 

The caddie for the men were usually there only briefly before stepping away. It's just that now the penalty can (and is) occuring early because it's when they start to take their stance. Does anyone recall ever thinking the men getting alignment help was a noticeable problem? I donkt think so. But with the women this was talked about extensively here.

Send like we're getting there. At the beginning of the thread it was "the men NEVER had the caddie looking them up". Now one post says almost never and you say it was briefer than the women.

Does it matter how brief it was really? All the ladies caddie ever did was confirm alignment. Not straighten them out. Now they're not doing it anywhere near the same as before but the men are getting caught seemingly ever event.

 

Unreal that you continue to believe that this rule was just as much about the men being lined up as the women. From the get go, EVERYONE agreed that the rule change came about because it was a terrible look on the LPGA tour and it was happening with A LOT of them. The REVERSE of that was true on the PGA tour, meaning close to none of their putts were being lined up by caddies.

 

What is it you're not getting??

Evidently what I am not getting is that you did not read my post. You even quoted it. I will bold it for you.

 

Why are the men getting nicked now? Do they just try to push the rules more than the ladies or do they think they will not get called for it? It is really quite simple. When you are about to take your stance get the caddie the heck away from behind you. It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

[rogolf]

Evidently what I am not getting is that you did not read my post. You even quoted it. I will bold it for you.

 

Why are the men getting nicked now? Do they just try to push the rules more than the ladies or do they think they will not get called for it? It is really quite simple. When you are about to take your stance get the caddie the heck away from behind you. It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

I don't understand this men vs women "issue". The Rules of golf apply equally to both genders - there is no issue to be resolved.

[deadsolid...shank]

 

 

Check out post #199. That's the one being replied to.

My post never said the ladies weren't being lined up. I said two things. One, the ladies were not being "adjusted" in their alignment. It was a crutch on their part and a bad optic. I'll add and agree it probably was a lot of the reason the rule was put into place.

Two, the men did it to, not as often but it seems now they did it a lot more than people noticed. Either that or they just now decided to start the practice.

Which seems more likely? That they just now started doing it or that they did before?

 

 

I don't recall with the men ever thinking, "that caddie isn't going to get moved in time". That was a regular occurrence with the women. The caddie barely moved before the lady swings, they're usually about two steps away at the most.

 

The caddie for the men were usually there only briefly before stepping away. It's just that now the penalty can (and is) occuring early because it's when they start to take their stance. Does anyone recall ever thinking the men getting alignment help was a noticeable problem? I donkt think so. But with the women this was talked about extensively here.

Send like we're getting there. At the beginning of the thread it was "the men NEVER had the caddie looking them up". Now one post says almost never and you say it was briefer than the women.

Does it matter how brief it was really? All the ladies caddie ever did was confirm alignment. Not straighten them out. Now they're not doing it anywhere near the same as before but the men are getting caught seemingly ever event.

 

Unreal that you continue to believe that this rule was just as much about the men being lined up as the women. From the get go, EVERYONE agreed that the rule change came about because it was a terrible look on the LPGA tour and it was happening with A LOT of them. The REVERSE of that was true on the PGA tour, meaning close to none of their putts were being lined up by caddies.

 

What is it you're not getting??

Evidently what I am not getting is that you did not read my post. You even quoted it. I will bold it for you.

 

Why are the men getting nicked now? Do they just try to push the rules more than the ladies or do they think they will not get called for it? It is really quite simple. When you are about to take your stance get the caddie the heck away from behind you. It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

 

I still say it’s because of the wording. If it had said you cannot be behind the ball while the player is in their stance, that would have eliminated the issue from the LPGA, because they stay there until JUST prior to the swing. And you wouldnt have seen any men’s penalties. Because it says “when they start to take a stance”, that catches the men”s caddies. Because you didn’t see them sit behind their player for a prolonged time like on the LPGA

[Halebopp]

It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

 

Just like the countless horror stories of how difficult IKEA furniture is to assemble. Their products come with the clearest and easiest-to-understand instructions there are in the world outside of Lego. But because the male ego doesn't let some to read the instructions, they can't figure out what to do and must blame someone else for their own shortcomings.

[davep043]

 

Why are the men getting nicked now? Do they just try to push the rules more than the ladies or do they think they will not get called for it? It is really quite simple. When you are about to take your stance get the caddie the heck away from behind you. It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

 

I still say it’s because of the wording. If it had said you cannot be behind the ball while the player is in their stance, that would have eliminated the issue from the LPGA, because they stay there until JUST prior to the swing. And you wouldnt have seen any men’s penalties. Because it says “when they start to take a stance”, that catches the men”s caddies. Because you didn’t see them sit behind their player for a prolonged time like on the LPGA

I think the rule had to define the time fairly clearly, and I'm not sure that "while the player is in their stance" is definitive enough. In addition, if the caddie doesn't have to move until after the player is "in his stance", it still allows some assistance while the player is getting set, and that potential for assistance is the behavior they're trying to eliminate. To me, "begins to take his stance" is a pretty reasonable time limit, and the examples in the rules make it at least reasonably clear.

And for the last sentence, Schenk's caddie really WAS there for a good while, as Schenk was digging his feet in and getting set up. He claimed he needed to be there, but I'm not sure that's accurate, he could have moved to the side and still discussed the options with Schenk.

[deadsolid...shank]

 

Why are the men getting nicked now? Do they just try to push the rules more than the ladies or do they think they will not get called for it? It is really quite simple. When you are about to take your stance get the caddie the heck away from behind you. It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

 

I still say it’s because of the wording. If it had said you cannot be behind the ball while the player is in their stance, that would have eliminated the issue from the LPGA, because they stay there until JUST prior to the swing. And you wouldnt have seen any men’s penalties. Because it says “when they start to take a stance”, that catches the men”s caddies. Because you didn’t see them sit behind their player for a prolonged time like on the LPGA

I think the rule had to define the time fairly clearly, and I'm not sure that "while the player is in their stance" is definitive enough. In addition, if the caddie doesn't have to move until after the player is "in his stance", it still allows some assistance while the player is getting set, and that potential for assistance is the behavior they're trying to eliminate. To me, "begins to take his stance" is a pretty reasonable time limit, and the examples in the rules make it at least reasonably clear.

And for the last sentence, Schenk's caddie really WAS there for a good while, as Schenk was digging his feet in and getting set up. He claimed he needed to be there, but I'm not sure that's accurate, he could have moved to the side and still discussed the options with Schenk.

Oh, I’m not complaining about it Dave. Just offering up to Shilgy why I think the me are getting nicked more frequently right now (and the fact they’ve played more events is a factor also). I didnt see the Schenk situation so I can’t comment there. I thought the first penalty called, on the Chinese player, was a perfect example. What he did wasn’t remotely similar to what was happening on the LPGA. Which is where I believe the perceived need for this rule came from.

[deadsolid...shank]

It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

 

Just like the countless horror stories of how difficult IKEA furniture is to assemble. Their products come with the clearest and easiest-to-understand instructions there are in the world outside of Lego. But because the male ego doesn't let some to read the instructions, they can't figure out what to do and must blame someone else for their own shortcomings.

 

Read the instructions!? Turn in your man card Halebop!!

[Dpavs]

It's a very complicated process for the PGA players apparently;

 

1. Make sure your caddie is not standing behind you.

2. Take your stance.

 

I can easily see why there is so much confusion.

[LeoLeo99]

It's a very complicated process for the PGA players apparently;

 

1. Make sure your caddie is not standing behind you.

2. Take your stance.

 

I can easily see why there is so much confusion.

 

Why do you think there's confusion? There wouldn't be confusion if the rules changed to hop 3 times on your left foot before taking your stance. But there would be push back same as we have now.

[Dpavs]

It's a very complicated process for the PGA players apparently;

 

1. Make sure your caddie is not standing behind you.

2. Take your stance.

 

I can easily see why there is so much confusion.

 

Why do you think there's confusion? There wouldn't be confusion if the rules changed to hop 3 times on your left foot before taking your stance. But there would be push back same as we have now.

 

True but criticism of such a rule would be justified in that case... as it is obviously and patently unfair for left handed golfers who should be allowed to hop on their right foot.

 

Perhaps such a rule should just say (and I embellish thereon) "Before taking a stance for a stroke, a player must hop 3 times on his\her foot which is nearest to the hole. Prior to taking a stroke, a player may back off their stance if they have not hopped 3 times or have done so with the wrong foot and may afterwards correctly proceed under this rule without penalty. Any player violating this rule shall be deemed to have gotten off on the wrong foot and shall be required to restart play on the hole currently being played and shall be assessed a penalty equal to the total number of strokes taken up to the point of violation of this rule or 2 strokes, whichever is the greater of the two"

[Augster]

 

Why are the men getting nicked now? Do they just try to push the rules more than the ladies or do they think they will not get called for it? It is really quite simple. When you are about to take your stance get the caddie the heck away from behind you. It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

 

I still say it’s because of the wording. If it had said you cannot be behind the ball while the player is in their stance, that would have eliminated the issue from the LPGA, because they stay there until JUST prior to the swing. And you wouldnt have seen any men’s penalties. Because it says “when they start to take a stance”, that catches the men”s caddies. Because you didn’t see them sit behind their player for a prolonged time like on the LPGA

I think the rule had to define the time fairly clearly, and I'm not sure that "while the player is in their stance" is definitive enough. In addition, if the caddie doesn't have to move until after the player is "in his stance", it still allows some assistance while the player is getting set, and that potential for assistance is the behavior they're trying to eliminate. To me, "begins to take his stance" is a pretty reasonable time limit, and the examples in the rules make it at least reasonably clear.

And for the last sentence, Schenk's caddie really WAS there for a good while, as Schenk was digging his feet in and getting set up. He claimed he needed to be there, but I'm not sure that's accurate, he could have moved to the side and still discussed the options with Schenk.

Oh, I’m not complaining about it Dave. Just offering up to Shilgy why I think the me are getting nicked more frequently right now (and the fact they’ve played more events is a factor also). I didnt see the Schenk situation so I can’t comment there. I thought the first penalty called, on the Chinese player, was a perfect example. What he did wasn’t remotely similar to what was happening on the LPGA. Which is where I believe the perceived need for this rule came from.

 

The Shenk thing was brutal. And this was AFTER two different guys got hit. Take a look at the pic here:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/news/2019/03/02/pga-tour-hands-out-penalty-for-caddie-alignment/amp/

 

He’s at address and his caddie is still crouched behind the line.

 

If the players REALLY wanted to get this changed, and FAST, every player would do this every time they hit a shot. It’d show some solidarity and force the PGA to make an exception or the ruling bodies to drop the rule ASAP.

 

It would only take one round. If everyone agreed on a Thursday that they would use it every time, shooting 70 would actually be a 210. The leaders would still be the leaders, based on skill, but the scores would be astronomical.

 

It’s tough to get 150 guys on board, but in a flagship WGC where there’s only 60 guys and no cut, it wouldn’t be that hard to get everyone on board.

[Swisstrader98]

 

Why are the men getting nicked now? Do they just try to push the rules more than the ladies or do they think they will not get called for it? It is really quite simple. When you are about to take your stance get the caddie the heck away from behind you. It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

 

I still say it’s because of the wording. If it had said you cannot be behind the ball while the player is in their stance, that would have eliminated the issue from the LPGA, because they stay there until JUST prior to the swing. And you wouldnt have seen any men’s penalties. Because it says “when they start to take a stance”, that catches the men”s caddies. Because you didn’t see them sit behind their player for a prolonged time like on the LPGA

I think the rule had to define the time fairly clearly, and I'm not sure that "while the player is in their stance" is definitive enough. In addition, if the caddie doesn't have to move until after the player is "in his stance", it still allows some assistance while the player is getting set, and that potential for assistance is the behavior they're trying to eliminate. To me, "begins to take his stance" is a pretty reasonable time limit, and the examples in the rules make it at least reasonably clear.

And for the last sentence, Schenk's caddie really WAS there for a good while, as Schenk was digging his feet in and getting set up. He claimed he needed to be there, but I'm not sure that's accurate, he could have moved to the side and still discussed the options with Schenk.

Oh, I’m not complaining about it Dave. Just offering up to Shilgy why I think the me are getting nicked more frequently right now (and the fact they’ve played more events is a factor also). I didnt see the Schenk situation so I can’t comment there. I thought the first penalty called, on the Chinese player, was a perfect example. What he did wasn’t remotely similar to what was happening on the LPGA. Which is where I believe the perceived need for this rule came from.

 

The Shenk thing was brutal. And this was AFTER two different guys got hit. Take a look at the pic here:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golf.com/news/2019/03/02/pga-tour-hands-out-penalty-for-caddie-alignment/amp/

 

He’s at address and his caddie is still crouched behind the line.

 

If the players REALLY wanted to get this changed, and FAST, every player would do this every time they hit a shot. It’d show some solidarity and force the PGA to make an exception or the ruling bodies to drop the rule ASAP.

 

It would only take one round. If everyone agreed on a Thursday that they would use it every time, shooting 70 would actually be a 210. The leaders would still be the leaders, based on skill, but the scores would be astronomical.

 

It’s tough to get 150 guys on board, but in a flagship WGC where there’s only 60 guys and no cut, it wouldn’t be that hard to get everyone on board.

 

So you are advocating for the pros to take a knee here as a show of protest against the USGA ruling bodies and this very dumb rule?

 

Civil disobedience...I like it!

 

Have you succumbed to the dark side Auggie? ?

[Shilgy]

If I have this straight, and my wife often says I don't, the ladies were vilified for this awful awful behavior. When it was legal. Now that the men are getting lined up, ala Schenk in the link a couple posts up, they should boycott the rule as unfair.

Does that about cover it?

 

PS our assistant pro realized there is a bit of a loophole in this rule. On the putting green the caddie can help the player line up... By helping line up the alignment line on the ball... Them the player steps away and resets but the alignment "help" is still there. Clearly legal but against the spirit of the aim of the rule to make players line themselves up.

[Newby]

 

PS our assistant pro realized there is a bit of a loophole in this rule. On the putting green the caddie can help the player line up... By helping line up the alignment line on the ball... Them the player steps away and resets but the alignment "help" is still there. Clearly legal but against the spirit of the aim of the rule to make players line themselves up.

It isn't really about lining up the ball but lining up the player in his stance. That's why the caddie has to be out of the way before the player takes his final stance.

[Stuart_G]

It would only take one round. If everyone agreed on a Thursday that they would use it every time, shooting 70 would actually be a 210. The leaders would still be the leaders, based on skill, but the scores would be astronomical.

 

Wouldn't it be less than one round? If they all agreed to intentionally go against the rules, wouldn't that be a DQ for everyone before the first shot was taken?

[Sawgrass]

It would only take one round. If everyone agreed on a Thursday that they would use it every time, shooting 70 would actually be a 210. The leaders would still be the leaders, based on skill, but the scores would be astronomical.

 

Wouldn't it be less than one round? If they all agreed to intentionally go against the rules, wouldn't that be a DQ for everyone before the first shot was taken?

Well . . . one player gets to make one stroke . . .but it still doesn't sound like a great idea. :derisive:

[buckeyefl]

Who had said we've never watched the antics on the greens with LGPA players/caddies?

 

Check out post #199. That’s the one being replied to.

My post never said the ladies weren't being lined up. I said two things. One, the ladies were not being "adjusted" in their alignment. It was a crutch on their part and a bad optic. I'll add and agree it probably was a lot of the reason the rule was put into place.

Two, the men did it to, not as often but it seems now they did it a lot more than people noticed. Either that or they just now decided to start the practice.

Which seems more likely? That they just now started doing it or that they did before?

 

I don’t recall with the men ever thinking, “that caddie isn’t going to get moved in time”. That was a regular occurrence with the women. The caddie barely moved before the lady swings, they’re usually about two steps away at the most.

 

The caddie for the men were usually there only briefly before stepping away. It’s just that now the penalty can (and is) occuring early because it’s when they start to take their stance. Does anyone recall ever thinking the men getting alignment help was a noticeable problem? I donkt think so. But with the women this was talked about extensively here.

Send like we're getting there. At the beginning of the thread it was "the men NEVER had the caddie looking them up". Now one post says almost never and you say it was briefer than the women.

Does it matter how brief it was really? All the ladies caddie ever did was confirm alignment. Not straighten them out. Now they're not doing it anywhere near the same as before but the men are getting caught seemingly ever event.

 

Not true and you can beat that drum as long as you like. You are off base on both your comment about the ladies caddies not realigning them and on your attempt to make it sound like the men were either doing it before or suddenly started. The men's caddies are HAVING CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THE SHOT as they have done forever but a poorly written rule is causing issues.

 

I have no doubt based on your ridiculous arguments that you know this but just can't manage to admit you are completely off base and wrong.

[buckeyefl]

 

Why are the men getting nicked now? Do they just try to push the rules more than the ladies or do they think they will not get called for it? It is really quite simple. When you are about to take your stance get the caddie the heck away from behind you. It is as easy as the drop rule but for some reason the men do not seem to have read the rules.

 

I still say it’s because of the wording. If it had said you cannot be behind the ball while the player is in their stance, that would have eliminated the issue from the LPGA, because they stay there until JUST prior to the swing. And you wouldnt have seen any men’s penalties. Because it says “when they start to take a stance”, that catches the men”s caddies. Because you didn’t see them sit behind their player for a prolonged time like on the LPGA

I think the rule had to define the time fairly clearly, and I'm not sure that "while the player is in their stance" is definitive enough. In addition, if the caddie doesn't have to move until after the player is "in his stance", it still allows some assistance while the player is getting set, and that potential for assistance is the behavior they're trying to eliminate. To me, "begins to take his stance" is a pretty reasonable time limit, and the examples in the rules make it at least reasonably clear.

And for the last sentence, Schenk's caddie really WAS there for a good while, as Schenk was digging his feet in and getting set up. He claimed he needed to be there, but I'm not sure that's accurate, he could have moved to the side and still discussed the options with Schenk.

Oh, I’m not complaining about it Dave. Just offering up to Shilgy why I think the me are getting nicked more frequently right now (and the fact they’ve played more events is a factor also). I didnt see the Schenk situation so I can’t comment there. I thought the first penalty called, on the Chinese player, was a perfect example. What he did wasn’t remotely similar to what was happening on the LPGA. Which is where I believe the perceived need for this rule came from.

 

You need to watch the Schenk video, it's even more ridiculous and more obvious what the caddie was doing.

[buckeyefl]

If I have this straight, and my wife often says I don't, the ladies were vilified for this awful awful behavior. When it was legal. Now that the men are getting lined up, ala Schenk in the link a couple posts up, they should boycott the rule as unfair.

Does that about cover it?

 

PS our assistant pro realized there is a bit of a loophole in this rule. On the putting green the caddie can help the player line up... By helping line up the alignment line on the ball... Them the player steps away and resets but the alignment "help" is still there. Clearly legal but against the spirit of the aim of the rule to make players line themselves up.

 

Again with the ridiculousness. The women may have gotten ripped by some people ( not me) but there was no penalty being issued. He was not getting lined up. Listen to your wife more often

 

If you would like to understand, which I highly doubt. I want you to do everything with your opposite hand for a day and Everytime you screw up you are obligated to slam your head into a wall as punishment. There's no sudden urge to line up players on the PGA tour ( no matter how many times you say it, it will not change reality) but there is an issue with trying to overcome hundreds of thousands of repetitions over the years on how they prepare for shots and how the talk with their caddie. I'm not really sure why an intelligent felliw like yourself sees the need to play dumb to such a degree.