New World Handicap System

[DaveLeeNC]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @"Colin L" said:

> > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > Thanks for that. A quick check of Rule 5.7 seems to bring up the answer:

> > > > >

> > > > Exactly.

> > > >

> > > > Incidentally, did you know CONGU will not be using 'Most Likely Scores'

> > >

> > > This is an interesting comment, Newby. Could you elaborate how this would work for cases like

> > >

> > > 1) Concessions in match play (maybe match play scores are not posted - I can understand that position)

> > >

> > > 2) Stableford where your Playing Handicap is lower than your Course Handicap and you pick up a 7 footer that cannot affect your Stableford score but NDB vs Net Bogey is still in play (miss vs. make the 7 footer).

> > >

> > > Thanks.

> > >

> > > dave

> >

> > Of the CONGU countries England, Scotland and Wales will not be accepting scores from match play - at least for the moment and not for a long time I hope. Ireland will. (Which means incidentally if any of the rest of us compete in a match play competition in Ireland we will have to return a score, but that's a different story).

> >

> > The answer to both a) and b) is that whenever you do not hole out a hole which you have started, your score for handicapping purposes is a Net Double Bogey. NDB is Par + 2 + any handicap strokes you get at the hole in question. You will get the number of strokes determined by your Playing Handicap distributed according to the Stroke Index/Handicap Hole. Your Course Handicap will not come into the equation whether it is greater or less than your Playing Handicap.

> >

> > That's how I understand the WHS rules.

> >

> > (Wasn't this conversation held earlier in the thread?)

>

> Colin, maybe it is the way you described it where the 'strokes received in the competition' drives what NDB is. . Today if you have a CH of 5 and are playing in a competition where, for whatever reason, you receive 4 strokes, your max score on the stroke index =5 hole uses your CH, not what is now being called your Playing Handicap. But the referenced illustration seems to imply your interpretation of things.

>

> I wonder how this works if you are playing in a scratch competition? You get no strokes so is your max score always par + 2?

>

> FWIW, all this seems 'wrong' to me but maybe the convenience and simplicity over-rides the 'wrongness' (as I perceive it).

>

> dave

>

> ps. "Have we discussed this before in this thread"? Maybe we have but I don't think that we were thinking in the same way. You always said 'one definition for NDB' and I just did not understand how that could be the case given the CH=5 example that I just posed. At the time it never occurred to me that your max score on some holes would change just because you were playing some team event where handicap allocations were 50% (or scratch where it was zero).

 

Rule 3.1b in the link that Davep posted ( https://www.carolinasghinsupport.org/images/carolinasghinsupport/site/downloads/Rules%20of%20Handicapping_Preview.pdf ) seems to clarify this WRT US golfers anyway.

 

"The player’s full, unrestricted Course Handicap should be used for all applications of net double bogey adjustments. For this procedure the Course Handicap is rounded to the nearest whole number (see Rule 6.1a/b)."

 

So at least in the US it appears that sanity remains - at least WRT this issue.

 

dave

[Colin L]

> @DaveLeeNC said:

> > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > @DaveLeeNC said:

> > > > > @Newby said:

> > > > > > @"Colin L" said:

> > > > > > Thanks for that. A quick check of Rule 5.7 seems to bring up the answer:

> > > > > >

> > > > > Exactly.

> > > > >

> > > > > Incidentally, did you know CONGU will not be using 'Most Likely Scores'

> > > >

> > > > This is an interesting comment, Newby. Could you elaborate how this would work for cases like

> > > >

> > > > 1) Concessions in match play (maybe match play scores are not posted - I can understand that position)

> > > >

> > > > 2) Stableford where your Playing Handicap is lower than your Course Handicap and you pick up a 7 footer that cannot affect your Stableford score but NDB vs Net Bogey is still in play (miss vs. make the 7 footer).

> > > >

> > > > Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > dave

> > >

> > > Of the CONGU countries England, Scotland and Wales will not be accepting scores from match play - at least for the moment and not for a long time I hope. Ireland will. (Which means incidentally if any of the rest of us compete in a match play competition in Ireland we will have to return a score, but that's a different story).

> > >

> > > The answer to both a) and b) is that whenever you do not hole out a hole which you have started, your score for handicapping purposes is a Net Double Bogey. NDB is Par + 2 + any handicap strokes you get at the hole in question. You will get the number of strokes determined by your Playing Handicap distributed according to the Stroke Index/Handicap Hole. Your Course Handicap will not come into the equation whether it is greater or less than your Playing Handicap.

> > >

> > > That's how I understand the WHS rules.

> > >

> > > (Wasn't this conversation held earlier in the thread?)

> >

> > Colin, maybe it is the way you described it where the 'strokes received in the competition' drives what NDB is. . Today if you have a CH of 5 and are playing in a competition where, for whatever reason, you receive 4 strokes, your max score on the stroke index =5 hole uses your CH, not what is now being called your Playing Handicap. But the referenced illustration seems to imply your interpretation of things.

> >

> > I wonder how this works if you are playing in a scratch competition? You get no strokes so is your max score always par + 2?

> >

> > FWIW, all this seems 'wrong' to me but maybe the convenience and simplicity over-rides the 'wrongness' (as I perceive it).

> >

> > dave

> >

> > ps. "Have we discussed this before in this thread"? Maybe we have but I don't think that we were thinking in the same way. You always said 'one definition for NDB' and I just did not understand how that could be the case given the CH=5 example that I just posed. At the time it never occurred to me that your max score on some holes would change just because you were playing some team event where handicap allocations were 50% (or scratch where it was zero).

>

> Rule 3.1b in the link that Davep posted ( https://www.carolinasghinsupport.org/images/carolinasghinsupport/site/downloads/Rules%20of%20Handicapping_Preview.pdf ) seems to clarify this WRT US golfers anyway.

>

> "The player’s full, unrestricted Course Handicap should be used for all applications of net double bogey adjustments. For this procedure the Course Handicap is rounded to the nearest whole number (see Rule 6.1a/b)."

>

> So at least in the US it appears that sanity remains - at least WRT this issue.

>

> dave

 

On occasion, the full value of a forum like this is to bring me up short with the realisation you I've been wrong before I open my big mouth and make an eejit of myself in front of an audience whether taking a seminar or making a ruling on the course. This is one such occasion. I completely missed that statement which is plainly there in the the draft Rules - tucked away in 3.1b(iv) at the foot of a page but that's no excuse. Thanks for spotting that, Dave, and apologies all round for poor reading.

 

So all is clear. Course Handicap determines NDB.

 

I will now retire to a safe distance with the rule book and do some revision.

[Newby]

> @davep043 said:

 

> Following up on this, I see that there's now an advance copy of the Rules of Handicapping is available to read.

>

> https://www.carolinasghinsupport.org/images/carolinasghinsupport/site/downloads/Rules%20of%20Handicapping_Preview.pdf

>

> Judging by the list of authorized formats, this appears to be a USGA publication, but I can't see where that is specified.

 

It is the USGA version. I am told that the GB&I version is on the point of release. This will replace the draft which Colin & I have got.

[HatsForBats]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @HatsForBats said:

> > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > > > > @rogolf said:

> > > > > > > > > > @ThinkingPlus said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > I'd sell all of my stock in companies that make their living selling paper scorecards. The 2019 Rules set us up for phone-based scoring. WHS 2020 suggests more of the same. (However, when I spoke with our Head Professional last week about WHS 2020 and suggested he hold off buying scorecards, he said that he'd just ordered 10,000.)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Hard pass for me. I don't carry a cell phone on the course.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I carry mine, but don't have a data plan - it's a phone only. I wonder if golf courses will stop putting scorecards on their power carts, replacing them with phones? or maybe scoring can be done by the GPS systems in the carts that have them? or will members still want paper scorecards for their groups and league play? I don't see paper scorecards disappearing for some time, thankfully (as I was employed by a pulp and paper company).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Cart GPS systems I have seen will keep score, but not really connected to any kind of database to transfer the scores. The software is generally pretty lame. Same for most mobile apps. It will be cost prohibitive for many places to go all electronic so paper will continue as standard for awhile longer I suspect.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It's foreseeable that within a few years we will have so much data to crunch that it won't fit on a small bit of folded cardboard. Many courses already have four or five or more tee locations, each may eventually have its own course rating and par. Then add two handicap indices, one for match play and another for stroke play, for each hole for each course, then double or triple that to accommodate women, men and children. Golf Genius will readily do all of this with one arm tied behind its back.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes, all of what you say above can happen. The real question is will it happen. Which courses are going to foot the bill for scoring tablets for each cart? Which courses will require a player to bring their cell phone to the course in order to keep score? Walkers would have to bring their own device since I doubt any course would hand out electronic scoring devices for daily use. A course is either investing in capital improvements with little chance for return or they risk loss of revenue because some folks won't come back and play again. No upside for the courses financially.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I also don't expect courses to go through with rating and stroking every tee box for men and women. It has almost never been done for any course I have played over the years. In fact I soon learned that if I expected to play somewhere more than once then I should start keeping my own database of course rating/slope. In that way I would only have to do the math gymnastics once to get a rating/slope for the tees I played in order to post.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As it has pretty much always been, all tees will be rated for the men and the 1 or 2 shortest tees will be rated for women. Men will have stroke holes set the same for all tee boxes (most likely the same for each tee box). They will likely choose stroke play emphasis to be most compliant with handicapping stroke play events. If the men's association plays a bunch of match play events they will probably get stroke holes with match play emphasis as well. The women will get stroke holes for "their" tees only with either match play or stroke play emphasis, but never both. I have serious doubts things are going to change much no matter what the RBs do. Just my 2 cents.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd suggest that the question isn't "will it happen" but how soon will it happen. These days scorecards cost about 6 cents apiece. A course that buys 20,000 a year will weigh their cost against some subscription fee to Golf Genius. (Golf Genius is quite easy. Even the old men at my club have taken it upon themselves to figure it out.)

> > > >

> > > > My understanding is that Golf Genius is free for the courses but I don't own a course so...

> > >

> > > Could be, Hats. However, down the road they might offer some level of service beyond live scoring.

> >

> > I get the sense you are already aware they do have services beyond live scoring but in case you dont -

>

> Thanks, Hats. Seems I'm only a year behind on this.

 

Looking at it futher it seems there is a free version and then a subscription version with aded features which is $2700 per year plus a one-time $400 fee. I know my course has access to it but they unfortunately are not using it.

 

https://www.golfgenius.com/usgatm

[davep043]

> @Newby said:

> > @davep043 said:

>

> > Following up on this, I see that there's now an advance copy of the Rules of Handicapping is available to read.

> >

> > https://www.carolinasghinsupport.org/images/carolinasghinsupport/site/downloads/Rules%20of%20Handicapping_Preview.pdf

> >

> > Judging by the list of authorized formats, this appears to be a USGA publication, but I can't see where that is specified.

>

> It is the USGA version. I am told that the GB&I version is on the point of release. This will replace the draft which Colin & I have got.

 

And now I see that the Florida State association has published a version without the "Advance Preview" label on each page, so its apparently the final version.

https://fsga.org/files/cm/Rules%20of%20Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

[HatsForBats]

Hopefully my Authorized Association, and most for that matter, follow the 'strongly' recommended option.

[KevCarter]

ESC limits single digit course handicap players to gross double bogey not net double bogey, correct?

 

My apologies, I can't seem to get quoting to work this morning. The above was asked and confirmed on a previous page. I can't find the exception for single digits anywhere. I'm not sure how I am missing it. Any help will be appreciated...

[davep043]

This is in the existing USGA Handicap Manual, Rule 4-3 (https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14377) If you're looking for it in the 2020 WHS Rules, you won't find it, the term ESC won't be used, its just the maximum hole score (Rule 3.1b)

[KevCarter]

Thank you Dave. I totally misunderstood the conversation, and I need to pay close attention to the new terminology! ???

[sui generis]

Hats, I spent the morning at a WHS/GHIN2020 workshop put on by our Allied Golf Association (new term for state or regional golf association). The desktop and phone apps seem to be designed to favor the hole-by-hole method. An additional incentive will be the ability to record some stats with the score for each hole. In fact, it'll be easy to do your own live scoring and live stats during play.

[Imp]

An additional incentive will be the ability to record some stats with the score for each hole. In fact, it'll be easy to do your own live scoring .....

Ok, this has me intrigued... can the league and/or course have access to that info in real time? For example... we have a tournament and players enter their scores as they go. Can we write a piece of software that will poll that information and pull it into a display for "live scoring" so those of us that finished early can see it? Or the clubhouse/proshop can use for scoring at the end? Will they let others have access to it? I definitely see a bonus to having this accessible by others for viewing purposes, where you don't have to buy other software?

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

Given that the manual recommends a 95% handicap allocation for an individual Stableford competition, I wonder how many folks are going to get this wrong and just post their Stableford competition results?

 

dave

[HatsForBats]

I will have to wait to see it in action but 'designed to favor' and what players will actually use more often may be 2 completely different things. We shall see. Color me hopeful but not optimistic.

[HatsForBats]

Don't need to write software as Golf Genius will already do this. I think the course would need the paid plan to have access to that though.

[GaHack1]

I've been told by our association that Golf Genius was writing the new app to replace the current GHIN app and would have a hole by hole option for entering scores.

 

[sui generis]

Plus, the new app will have a stats feature allowing the recording of fairways hit (and missed left and right), GIR, and putts.

[mark m]

Thanks for posting the info. The inclusion of the stats feature and hole-by-hole makes sense when recalling what GHIN.com had posted regrading eGolfer stats. I have not read through the entire pdf, but here are two observations:

The language in Section 4-4 - on "certification of scores" - looks to be stronger than previous and the guys who were not happy about the change to disallowing posting of solo round scores should take a look at it. When we first heard 'T' scores were going away, I asked about score designations. It is very helpful for the HC and others attempting peer review to be able to easily identify scores from competitions/tournaments. Using just a date would not be ideal. If you look at Appendix B page 71, it looks like scores can (and hopefully will) be identified as C (for Competition) scores. Currently 'C' scores = "combined" nine hole scores. The other designations - some the same, some new - look to be H (home), A (away), S (stroke play), M (match play), N (nine-hole), and so on.It's looking better all the time.

[bladehunter]

All the state am qualifiers and county am I posted in last two years tried to use both cards and golf genius. In each group golf genius was abandoned before the turn. It just seemed to slow the group down. I tried to be the group scorer for 2 holes myself and abandoned it. It caused me actual anxiety for some reason. It never seemed to move fast enough. And I twice got into a situation with no service . That’s was the last straw.

 

I suppose if i set up my phone before hand by taking the code lock off , and then setting the rest function for a less power saving option ( so the phone stays on longer than 30 sec with no action ) . It just turned into a whole production rather than a pencil on a card or 3-6 seconds.

[sui generis]

Often we get what we expect.

[ThinkingPlus]

Often software groups over promise and under deliver.

[bladehunter]

Just giving you my real world experience of that system in practice. Huge difference In distraction , in my opinion, for someone playing in that level event , comparing between a quick paper card and fooling with a phone.

[DaveLeeNC]

My GUESS is that this would work smoothly for those who view their phone like underwear (something that is always around - at least in public). For those (like me) who see a phone as a secondary kind of thing that comes in handy on occasion, it will be pretty unnatural and and relatively inefficient and the occasional round of golf is not going to be enough to turn the situation around for those types of golfers. I am still learning to cope with my screen and the sun, the fact that my fingerprint reader tends to not work when I am sweaty, and lots of other irritations that I would probably solve quickly if I used my phone more than I do.

dave

ps. But until I die I will ALWAYS hate touch screens more than I hate boiled carrots.

[Sawgrass]

Note that for many people, entering the hole-by-hole scores in GG after the round is a better option. Of course one loses the "live" aspect of watching some groups scores, but if you do it off to the side of the 18th green it doesn't take too much time to have the leaderboard be complete.

[sui generis]

I often find that things I don't want to work live up to my expectations. There's a small group at my club, good players in their thirties, who won't use GG . . . they're way too cool for that!

[bladehunter]

True. And that’s the option id use when they eventually mandate it.

 

 

[bladehunter]

I agree with you 100 % and at the same time , I am attached to this thing all day. But. Here’s the rub for me. I’m an incredible creature of habit. I can’t tell you the password for anything. But my fingers know the motions. I can be on my phone all day ( iPhone 10 super sized ) and doubt I can operate 1 - 10th of its capability. I bought the big screen. That’s it.

 

I don’t know where my razor stays in the cabinet without backtracking , but my subconscious can reach for it every morning. Found this out once when my wife moved the position from one shelf to another. I eventually called her at work to help me find it. It was there. In plain sight. I just don’t devote or posses that much working memory. It’s likely due to a undiagnosed disorder of some kind that will eventually render me useless. But for now , it takes loads of reps to learn a new motion. So I do everything from getting out of bed , to walking out the door with exact precision. A break of order creates a bad day. Same as the GG did the first time it was throw at us on thefirst tee of the county am.

 

My phone goes into my bag on silent normally. Now you want it out and working , each hole ? Bad day. ( my opinion , I realize it’s me. But. It’s not only me ).

[bladehunter]

Sure. Self fulfilling prophecy.

 

But. On the flip side. Often Things sold as “ easier or more features “ often come with more work and aggravating issues . A pencil and paper is pretty darn idiot proof. And this idiot prefers it.

[sui generis]

Take all the time you want, blade, but the future is likely to be paperless golf. :)

[DaveLeeNC]

Maybe you have some serious insight into this particular group, but that attitude (basically accusing folks who have different preferences of being unreasonable or something worse) is not going to be helpful to your cause.

In my experience the majority of single digit golfers keep their own 'stats' in addition to scores. Often they are symbols unique to them (and possibly recording 'stats' unique to them), or in my case it was a separate card where I recorded 'information' rather than stats. So for these golfers the question is not 'paper or phone' it is 'paper or paper&phone'. Or put another way the technology does not yet meet their recording requirements.

In my system every shot would look something like this - "6i-155" or maybe "6i-155-B". I would go home and enter that into a database (with pulldown/choice interfaces for everything where that made sense). I DO NOT want to do that on my phone (at least with the technologies that are available so far).

dave

[CaseyC]

Dave,

Have you ever tried the Strokes Gained App?