New World Handicap System

[ThinkingPlus]

Well under the current USGA system both handicap index and differentials are not whole numbers, but are computed to a tenth. My impression was that USGA handicapping under WHS in 2020 will be the same. Not sure about CONGU currently or under WHS.

[Colin L]

WHS score differentials will be to the first decimal place.

[Newby]

Oops. Differentials snook in there by mistake. But I didn't include Handicap Index by design.

In CONGU, Exact Handicap is to tenths but the differential is a whole number.

[ThinkingPlus]

The implication seems to be that course ratings under CONGU are whole numbers or differentials are rounded to whole numbers. Per Colin it seems WHS brings another change of differentials to a tenth of a stroke for you folks.

[Sean2]

What I used to do is make my own personal par. It was discouraging to tally up my score at the end of the round and see how far removed from par I was.

What I would do, and sometimes still do, is get a Sharpie, and based on my HI would change the par on those holes indicated by my HI.

When i tally up my score at the end of the round, the difference between my score and “par” was much closer. I would walk off the 18th green encouraged instead of discouraged.

[Newby]

Not quite.

Certainly the CR (SSS in CONGU terms) currently is the USGA CR rounded.

The differential is simply the net score minus the CSS.

The CSS (ie Competition Standard Scratch) is the SSS (ie Standard Scratch Score) plus or minus any course /competition difficulty adjustment ( rather like the PCC) (a whole number).

[ThinkingPlus]

Interesting and thanks.

[Deceptively Short]

Coincidentally in the past few weeks we have had qualifying Stableford (CONGU) competitions from the white tees par 70 sss72, the yellow tees par 70 sss 70 and the blue tees par 70 sss 68. So to play to your handicap you would have needed 34, 36 and 38 points respectively.

Usually in summer, competitions are off the whites and yellow or blue are mainly used in winter, so it is a coincidence to have three such competitions close together.

We all noted that it would have been really useful to have the par - sss in our strokes received as this would have made it 36 points to play to your handicap. It seems a good idea that the US will be moving to this and a shame that CONGU isn’t (yet?).

[Newby]

I gather that CONGU wish to get away from par as it has little or nothing to do with difficulty. They want to concentrate our minds on actual (ie rated) difficulty.

On the face of it, rather odd as both the US & Europe (I think) play relatively little stableford and they are moving to (CR - par).

However, I play more stableford than medal but always relate my running score to SSS (or CSS when known). Further, when officiating at elite competitions, I have noticed that all players say to others "My score (ie gross) is XX" and ask at the recorder's desk, "What is the CSS projection?".

[Halebopp]

The EGA is staying with the CR-Par adjustment and I can't think of a single good reason why it shouldn't be included. After all, CR is a big part of the ratings and par is almost irrelevant in the formula. It simply changes a player from saying "I need to shoot 86 on this course to play to my handicap" to "I need to shoot 14 over par".

At least in Finland most of the players, in my opinion, play Stableford as it is what our handicap has been based on. Most weekly competitions have one flight of handicapped stroke play for players with handicaps around 12 or better and the rest play Stableford in one or two flights while all weekly senior competitions are Stableford. Those who do play stroke play in their casual rounds tend to be players with handicaps of 15 or better. The rest might try to get a stroke-play score but more realistically have their eyes on the Stableford score and actually keep track of it during the round. Of course this is just my view on the matter.

[DaveLeeNC]

 

Regarding the statement about the US going to the CR-Par adjustment but Stableford not being that common in the US, it is my understanding the the primary reason that the USGA is making that adjustment is so that NDB max score adjustment (for handicap posting) makes better sense.

dave

[Newby]

Could well be.

[James the Hogan Fan]

That's disappointing, I don't know why the formula would need to be proprietary... So I can't steal it and sell it to a rival golf handicapping service?

[sui generis]

Perhaps the R&A and USGA don't wish to spend the next hundred years arguing with anonymous strangers on the internet about PCC. ;)

[James the Hogan Fan]

After we settle whether hole-by-hole scoring is worthwhile; priorities you know...

[sui generis]

For sure, James. How the player enters a worthwhile score depends upon when they wish to pay attention. Hole-by-hole means the player enters gross scores and the box computes NDB. The alternative, requires the player to know which holes they receive strokes and enter gross up to NDB. Nice that the ruling bodies give us the choice, right?

[nsxguy]

USA guy here. I've been M.I.A. for most of November (you're all welcome BTW ) but I just got the email from my local association and read up on some of the now(?) official HC Rules and only just read through them a bit. Also didn't read roughly pages 9-18 in this thread so I apologize if something I mention has been already covered.

Some observations.

Firstly, on a board where almost nobody can agree on anything, BUT where pretty much ALL golfers, the "serious" ones (including the officials) AND the higher handicappers,,,,,,,, the one thing they all seem to agree on is that a cell phone on the golf course, in general, is an acceptable reason for immediate beheading of the offending party. ? Yet now, using a cell phone to record your scores on every hole seems to be, dare I say, acceptable ??? Talk about a 180* about face !!!

I find that very hard to believe. So now, half my 4-some will have their phones out the whole round ?!?!?! That smoke coming out of my ears does NOT mean I've been elected Pope !!!

Also surprised Roadking hasn't brought this up but if given a choice, golfers entering their own scores will enter their gross total score adjusted. They will NOT enter their scores hole-by-hole.

Further, somewhat(?) unique to the USA where a LOT of golfers do NOT play with an organized club who is going to decide the day's adjustment to scores ? The golf shop ? I don't think so. And what about players that have great conditions in the morning but it rains cats and dogs in the afternoon. Anyone think the Pro Shop is going to worry about any of that ? Doesn't seem likely.

I certainly applaud the CR-Par part of the new Course Handicap calculation which BUILDS IN the (old) difference for players that play from different tee sets. It just so happens a scramble group I play with on Saturdays also plays a points game on Thursday. I played with them once about a year ago and when they didn't adjust for the different tee sets I asked the organizer about it and he simply said "Nope, we don't do that". I tried to explain to him but he's 81. He wasn't having it so I simply didn't play in their Thursday comp.

NOW, with the different tees in the CH calc he's got no choice.

 

OK, that's all I got for now.

 

 

[Colin L]

Ease the blood pressure. Smoke from the ears indicates serious over-heating of moral outrage . Don't think of a phone being used to record a score at the end of a hole as a phone, just think scorecard. It's really no different from pulling out a bit of card out and writing a number down - except from what I read hear, maybe you don't do that!

For me it will be quicker because I won't have to scrabble around in my pockets trying to find my pencil in amongst the peg tees. And I won't be using my electronic scorecard as a phone.

[Newby]

Exactly

[Newby]

1) if given a choice, golfers entering their own scores will enter their gross total score adjusted. They will NOT enter their scores hole-by-hole.2) Further, somewhat(?) unique to the USA where a LOT of golfers do NOT play with an organized club who is going to decide the day's adjustment to scores ? The golf shop ? I don't think so. And what about players that have great conditions in the morning but it rains cats and dogs in the afternoon. Anyone think the Pro Shop is going to worry about any of that ? Doesn't seem likely.1) As everywhere else in the world they have always done it, why can't Americans cope. Too lazy, too difficult ?2) Read the book and you will find the system does it automatically. Again, the rest of the world have done it for years.

[bladehunter]

Excellent points. Zero chance my clubs shop workers can count the till correctly , much less be responsible for course rating twice a day.

 

And is this a for real thing coming ? Phones required to post score hole by hole ? What if you’ve have a flip phone ( as so many seniors still do ) ? Will be more and more 5 hour rounds . I assumed earlier when mentioned this was a hypothetical pipe dream that I assumed would never materialize since it is a bit like taking a round wheel and adding weight to it while increasing the diameter. Making it harder to turn and therefore less effective.

[Colin L]

There's no doubt that the option of recording scores by phone is on it's way here, but it will still be possible to use card and pencil. We're still at a stage where not everyone in my club has an email account and we can't assume that everyone has a smartphone. I for one look forward to the possibility of scoring by phone in club competitions and the consequent possibility of a live leaderboard in the clubhouse at least in our more important ones. Given that we are used to recording hole by hole as a routine which in no way needs hold up play, I can't see a phone being any different from a card. There is is, of course, the factor that all our scores for handicapping are from competitions or from rounds played under competition conditions which means that by the Rules, we have to record hole by hole. All we are looking at is a development to an electronic method of doing what we do anyway; our sky is not going to fall down. Nor will yours. Embrace change!

[bladehunter]

Hmm.

 

Well. I suppose I already record by hole on my card. If that’s what you mean? Or do you mean posting on the app hole by hole ? As in posting 18 scores after a round ?

 

As for phone not slowing one down ? Sure it will. 5 digit access code , then hit the app , wait to load , then find the spot , enter the score. 18 times. Vs card in pocket , out , pencil , back in ... all as I walk. I’d guess a 30 second minimum of difference per hole.

 

Im not just talking out of my butt. As i said before. They’ve tried to implement this with golf genius during our County and state am and it’s a fabulous flop. Very distracting thing to have to worry about during a serious round. Live scoring that is.

[DaveLeeNC]

Is it really correct that "only in America" do golfers not (today) enter hole-by-hole scores into their relevant handicap systems and "only in America" is there not some form of PCC adjustment?

My guess would have been 'not even close', but I honestly don't know that.

dave

[sui generis]

Manually recording hole-by-hole scores on a phone will soon be passé.

Before you know it, we will just speak our score, "Hey, Siri. Hole number 4, I had a three."

Get with it, or get out of the way. ;)

[DaveLeeNC]

Until golf carts come with built-in smartphone holders (along with a scorecard holder), this will not be the norm. To date I have never even heard of such a thing.

dave

[crazygolfnut]

I think most players will record their score on a card, hole-by-hole, and then enter their score via cell phone once they get back to the club house. Between a GPS, rangefinder and cell phone on the course, I wont have enough time to enjoy the game.  

[sui generis]

Dave, I'm not wishing for this. However, I do see it as inevitable.

The player's phone is listening or their watch is listening or their SkyCaddie is waiting to be told the score.

Sell your stock in golf pencil suppliers. ;)

[bladehunter]

The machines will grind us all up for lamp oil before that happens. I prefer to stand in the way of the AI apocalypse myself.

[reidsou]

Experienced hole by hole entry once. "Live scoring in the clubhouse" on Golf Genius. There was no step to verify scores. I shot 80, the marker put me down for a 95. Took several days to get corrected and the pro had to take my word for it.