New World Handicap System

[nsxguy]

 

This.

As I mentioned previously they have taken the adjustments for playing from different tee sets and worked it into the course handicap calculation.

So anybody running a mixed tees competition is now "forced" to make the adjustment whereas before, as at least one such comp I am aware of, refused to make the adjustment.

It'll work out roughly, if not exactly, the same.

[bladehunter]

Dare I ask what NDB is ?

 

And. So how will the handicap itself show ? As in will the app show a handicap for all tees on each course for that day ? I guess I hear what you’re saying. But I don’t get the day to day calculation.

 

lets use the USga minimum handicap as an example to enter certain events. In what form will my handicap now show to use for that ? And how does it get there when calculating for each tee from each course I’ve played ?

[ThinkingPlus]

Net Double Bogey. USGA and state level amateur events limit fields based on Handicap Index not Course Handicap. The GHIN app or website should show Course Handicaps for each tee that has been rated for each gender. If you play unrated tees for your gender, then you are on your own and have to do some math to figure all the numbers out (one of the crosses I bear).

[nsxguy]

After all the fuss about whether leaving the flag in saved time or not ???

You left out, whether one is walking or riding, finding the phone, picking it up, swiping or pushing the button to wake it up,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and putting it away. Plus all the extra handling of the phone and the possibility of dropping it or otherwise damaging it.

And BTW, "fat fingers" is a real thing. LOL

Not to mention rain. Oops.

 

And one other thing about keeping score for someone else - and I realize phones or not the issue is the same - when you're amongst your friends it's no big deal but when you're keeping score for a stranger and he/she has a really bad hole and you ask them what they made, especially if YOU are playing well, you sometimes need a Grade A quality flame retardant suit on,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Newby]

FRom the USGA version of the Rules

4.1a General

(ii) A score should be posted to the player’s scoring record in the form prescribed by the Authorized Association.

This may be in the form of holeby-hole scores (strongly recommended), an adjusted gross score or Stableford points.

[nsxguy]

Not a big deal but you said "take the CR of the tees and subtract it from par". Then in parens you say "(CR-par)" which is not the same.

And I believe the calculation goes + ( CR-PAR). It works out the same as what you said though.

As for your differences, for the rest of this year you go from 7 to scratch, no ? So next year you got from 5 to +2. Same-same. And as you point out everybody else will be doing the same so the relative handicaps remain (mostly) the same. No harm, no foul.

You also said "CR-par is going to make much more difference in caps than the 8/20"

While the 8/20 will, of course, make some difference in 'caps, CR-par will NOT make ANY difference in handicaps.

Or did you mean to say "Course Handicaps" where it will make a difference but shouldn't affect the relative course handicaps for the day. And it shouldn't make much, if any, of a difference if the committee was previously applying the strokes according to the "different tee sets" rule (recommendation ?).

[Newby]

Handicap Index The measure of a player’s demonstrated ability calculated against the Slope Rating of a golf course of standard playing difficulty (that is, a course with a Slope Rating of 113) (see Rule 5.2).Course Handicap The number of handicap strokes a player receives, before handicap allowances, from a specific set of tees as determined by the Slope Rating and the difference between Course Rating and par (see Rule 6.1).Net Double Bogey A score equal to the par of a hole plus two strokes and adjusted for any handicap strokes applied on that hole. A net double bogey is a player’s maximum hole score for handicap purposes (see Rule 3.1).

[ThinkingPlus]

Since (CR - Par) is changing the Course Handicap calculation and Course Handicap impacts your max hole score (limited to net double bogey), then there will be a slight impact of (CR - Par) on Handicap Indices.

[nsxguy]

You presently know "NDB" as "ESC". Instead of the current ESC, the Net Double Bogey becomes how one deducts "excess" strokes from a player's score for HANDICAP PURPOSES only. i.e. his gross and net scores for the comp don't change (just like today with ESC).

e.g. Player has a course handicap of 7. On his 7 most difficult holes, again, for handicap purposes only, a stroke is deducted for any strokes over net double bogey. So on his first 7 hdcp holes, a TRIPLE bogey would be acceptable towards his handicap since taking a stroke off on that hole would result in a NET double bogey. A QUAD would have 1 stroke taken off.

On his NON-stroke holes, a double bogey will be the max. Any strokes over double are taken off.

For a 24 'cap, 2 strokes (to get to net double) are required on the 6 hardest holes (24-18), 1 stroke on the other 12.

This is the new "ESC".

[nsxguy]

Understood.

I haven't taken pencil to paper to do a lot of calculations but just as today, when, say a 5.2 'cap plays against a 5.3 'cap and the course handicap calc gives 1 guy 6 shots and the other only 5 (been there, done that LOL), there surely will be slight changes in handicaps and course handicaps here and there due to the changes and rounding.

[bladehunter]

Thanks for the replies. i don't know much more than I did except that NDB is net double bogey a s used in place of ESC.

 

you guys and gal are smart and obviously know what’s going on. I do not question That one bit. But I do question how on earth this is going to go over with the “ membership at large “. And maybe o just need to sit down and make myself some notes on now vs 2020 so I can digest it a bit. I’ve been reading this thread for weeks and not really commenting and I’m still pretty clueless. I can’t imagine how It will be for folks who won’t have knowledgeable people to help like we have here. Hope im wrong.

[ThinkingPlus]

Yep, it is likely going to be a dumpster fire year for folks who primarily play net comps or casual net play. Should be interesting.

[HatsForBats]

I'm not liking the new quote functionality. What I am responding to is the second part of your post 'quoted' above. The part about sandbagging.

 

I don't think posting hole by hole scores will do anything to curb sandbagging. Those that want to sandbag will still find ways. The actual benefit, not perceived, would be the reduction in the number of errors in score posting. It absolutely will reduce the number of errors by a significant amount in my experience/opinion.

[Sawgrass]

Somewhat ironically for you, Blade, your smartphone and GHIN app may save you from most or all of these challenges.

[CaseyC]

"...I can’t imagine how It will be for folks who won’t have knowledgeable people to help like we have here. Hope im wrong.>."

 

Most people don't have knowledge of the current system.

Use hole by hole scoring and NDB adjustments will be made automatically.

People will have a Handicap Index, calculated a bit differently , but most people don't know how their Index is calculated now.

People will get a Course Handicap, calculated a bit differently, but most people don't know how it is calculated now.

[davep043]

Agree completely. Its just a guess, but I'd bet that most players don't use our current ESC system (in USGA-land) correctly right now, so any confusion over NDB is unlikely to worsen compliance. And yes, if they'd rather choose to enter hole by hole, they can avoid the pesky thinking that adjusting for NDB might require. My hope is that our phone apps for score entry will show hole-by-hole score entry as the default setting, with the potential to enter an adjusted gross score as a hard-to-find option. Most won't look for options, they'll just use hole-by-hole, and realize how simple it is. And I don't mean as they play, but taking 60 seconds or so while they have their post-golf refreshment.

And most people won't care about the details of the calculations, not any more than they do now.

[bladehunter]

Right. But.

 

Who will explain the difference in those two ?

 

And of course I’m thinking of my little bubble ( club) , but to paint the picture..... we just last year got them all on board with actually using ESC and.... the idea of the stroke differential for tees. They had been playing front tee guys against middle and back for years and not giving a single shot between the tees. There was much hand wringing about this. Now ... it’s not going to be that way , it’s going to appear as a course handicap difference. So re-education of the newly educated. Probably will go over like a lead balloon. But hey. Progress. Right ! Lol.

[CaseyC]

Who will explain it? That's up to them. If they do care, they will do some work themselves. If they don't care, tell them to input their scores hole by hole and just go by what the computer spits out.

If they want to do their own thing, they will. If they want a real index and compete clubwide or with others, they will adjust.

 

[bladehunter]

To run net comps someone will have to set order to it. Otherwise it can get as extreme as fistfights in the pro shop ( true story about 4 years ago )

 

 

[CaseyC]

The way to "set order" is to follow the rules and reccomendations. That includes hole by hole scores.

[bladehunter]

Yes. But I’m talking setting up a net comp. you have 60 and up playing the up tees , around 30 guys playing the middle tee and 10 of so of us they make play back .... 3 shot differential from front to middle and 2 from middle to back ... 5 from back to front. Telling the guy who’s 70 and playing the front that he’s now a + 5 when he was scratch last year is NOT going to be easy.

[CaseyC]

 "...Telling the guy who’s 70 and playing the front that he’s now a + 5 when he was scratch last year is NOT going to be easy..."

Tough. I mean really. How childish are these guys?

[bladehunter]

As childish as any 70 year old. Crawl walk run walk crawl again. Right ?

 

Anyway. I’ll go away now. But you apparently have not had to deal with the politics of a handicap association or that committee. It’s a regular daycare situation. Except they have drivers licenses and smoke .

[nsxguy]

First you tell him to calculate the course rating himself (or look it up on the chart in the Pro Shop).

Then tell him to check the difference in the shots he's giving away to his buddy who plays from the whites "NOW" vs. what he gave him "BEFORE". When he sees it's the same tell him he can check the difference between himself and anybody else.

Mostly same-same (or very slightly different).

 

Oh, and BTW, for a net comp ESC never came into play (at least not that I am aware of). Neither does the new NDB.

[ThinkingPlus]

That's generally true for us in the states so @bladehunter won't have to worry about it much, but rest of the world plays alot of net Stableford comps. NDB is fundamental in net Stableford.

[bladehunter]

Yep. Stableford is the Saturday morning game , so we’re used to using ESC with that. Sorry. Should have said.

**** correction. Not ESC... max double bogey. It’s a modified stableford game. Not Net .... so I guess that will stay same.

[ThinkingPlus]

Ooops, feel bad for you there. I dislike net Stableford. Sort of the participation award format for golf.

[rogolf]

Regarding Stableford - I think it's a great stroke play game, particularly for juniors, beginners and regular play. It does not "punish" players for having a terrible hole, they can pick up at the time they cannot score any points, and carry on without suffering further. For example, why should junior players have to agonize over a two foot putt for an eleven? Further, why should anyone? Players can establish personal bests in Stableford points and continue to work for improvements.

I realize we're off-topic but had to express my support for Stableford.

[ThinkingPlus]

Yep. Exactly. Participation award format.

[rogolf]

Disagree. It's an encouraging format. BTW, I also don't like "participation awards", but Stableford allows a golfer to see improvements without suffering undue embarrassment - it's better for participation than pure stroke play, and can keep some people in the game. Many parts of the world use it beneficially.