New World Handicap System

[James the Hogan Fan]

I was not aware any such services existed, since they would not be sanctioned.

 

[Newby]

Here's one for starters. Golf Handicap - My Online Golf ClubThey can't use any 'official' calculations/formulae as all authorities copyright them.

As an aside, look at what the app does.

 

In the UK though there are about ten officially licenced Independent Software Vendors providing CONGU functionality.

[James the Hogan Fan]

I don't know why they care about those services, if one wants to enter a competition they would need a sanctioned handicap, which those are not. To wit, such a thing requires a club membership somewhere, and a handicap kept by a non-authorized provider would be invalid for that purpose.

And if they are, why provide any information at all? I could rewrite the handicap manual to say "Your WHS handicap is simple, simply enter your scores into your USGA™ handicap system app™ and it will produce a handicap using the "WHS handicap equation"(©)! That's all there is to it!"

Think of all the paper I just saved!

 

In seriousness, I understand their point, and they have their interests to look out for. But at the same time, why bother? The equipment rules are out there for all to see, why am I given all the tools I need to create a conforming wedge, but not a valid handicap app?

It's just a minor annoyance, in the end.

 

[Newby]

These sites are aimed primarily at the European market where many players take golfing holidays in different countries, The courses often demand handicap certificates to 'prove' a certain level of competence. The courses are not too picky about who has issued the certificate.

Re making a wedge. You can't make one exactly the same as a Cleveland or any other 'copyrighted' club. You can devise a handicap system but not copy a copyrighted one.

[DaveLeeNC]

 

I have to disagree with that. You still have to play the best to win within the rules chosen by the committee (and are defined by the ROG). A participation format awards simply participation only, which this does not do.

dave

 

[CaseyC]

I am involved with the Handicap Committee and I have told people they can't play in this Saturday comp because they have been "remiss" in entering there scores. Not surprising, it is a very small minority and not surprising it is usually their lowest scores.

[ThinkingPlus]

I exaggerated a bit to make a point. Anytime you have a format that allows someone to pickup with no further consequences punishes players that keep their ball in play and grind for every shot. We already have handicaps which allow folks to play golf on a somewhat equitable basis. Giving additional advantages to poorer players feels a bit participation award like to me. The Stableford format somewhat hollows the fewest strokes win meritocracy that golfers typically hold in high regard.

[Sawgrass]

Stableford "punishes" no one. It's equally applied. It, and max score, are simply different games which choose to exclude high hole scores and enhance pace of play. You might as well say that match play is a participation award format -- after all, you can't lose worse than 10&8.

[DaveLeeNC]

Not a match play fan, I take it -:)

dave

 

[ThinkingPlus]

Match play is somewhat the same just not to as great a degree. Better players rarely have to pickup whereas poorer players pickup often. So maybe the better view is that poorer players get more benefit from a Stableford format than better players do.

[ThinkingPlus]

Did you mean match play fan? No I am not a fan of match play. I primarily play stroke play. If I play any of the other formats, it is for socializing more than anything else.

[sui generis]

Forgive us if we are wrong, but we're left with the impression that highly skilled golfers look down on any game that's not gross.

[DaveLeeNC]

Yep - and that is the second stupid thing that I have typed today.

dave

[ThinkingPlus]

I'm fine with net. It is very challenging to win a net event. I embrace that challenge.

[bladehunter]

Agree. If you don’t have the mindset of “ I must win “ or “ I deserve to win “ it’s a great way to push yourself to stay sharp. I say push yourself because it’s nearly impossible to actually win when giving more than 5/6 shots in match play. Just smile and say congratulations when it’s over.

[davep043]

First, I think @ThinkingPlus meant that she enjoys net stroke-play events.
But second, your view that a low-handicap player can't win in match play against a higher-handicap player is completely wrong, as long as handicaps are kept appropriately. Your club full of sandbaggers and cheats isn't an indication of the rest of the (mostly honest) golf world. Statistics show that lower handicappers have an edge, and the edge increases when the handicap gap is larger. With the new system, I'm not sure whether that edge will increase or decrease.

[ThinkingPlus]

Correct, I don't mind net stroke play. I should have been explicit. I dislike all match play in general. I play one match play event each year. It is a pseudo state level event (limited number of clubs participate). I have won it the last two years. I primarily play for the socializing and camaraderie.

[Krt22]

Lol awesome.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Sounds good on paper. I’ve just not found that opponent yet.

 

Shot 73 as a 1.3 at the time ( still chasing putter) vs a 10 who shot 81 and it was on his home course ( our sister course ) in inter club match play 4-5 weekends ago. He dropped a 25 ft Birdie on me on 1 and I never got the lead after that. Lost 2 and 3. To date I’ve won 1 net match in my life. And yet I’ve beat numerous guys with caps lower than me and 2 mini tour pros playing heads up. ill believe it when I see it. End of Segway. Lol.

[antip]

I'm in furious agreement with your key point above. But rules pedantry requires I observe that the 'can't lose worse than...' statement is not correct.

[DaveLeeNC]

What is a worse Match Play loss?

dave

[Newby]

I posted this about 14 years ago on another forum

If after the second hole a player had been found to be carrying more than 14 clubs he would have been penalised 1 hole for each hole played (upto a maximum of 2 holes). Rule 4-4a.If he had already lost the 1st two holes, he would now be 4 down. If he continued to lose holes in normal play, after 9 holes he would be 11 down with 9 to play. 

And even more

If a Condition of Competition forbids the use of a relation (eg) as a caddy and if after the second hole a player had been found to have an illegal caddy he would have been penalised 1 hole for each hole played (upto a maximum of 2 holes). CoC Use of Caddie ProhibitedIf he had already lost the 1st two holes, he would now be 6 down. If he continued to lose holes in normal play, after 8 holes he would be 12 down with 10 to play. 

And the killer

If a Condition of Competition specifies that the players use only one type of ball and if after a few holes a player had been found to have used different types he would have been penalised 1 hole for each hole played (upto a maximum of 2 holes). CoC One Ball ConditionIf he had already lost the 1st two holes, he would now be 10 down. If he continued to lose holes in normal play, after 7 holes he would be 13 down with 11 to play. 

AAARGH !

If a Condition of Competition forbids the use of a cart and if after the second hole a player had been found to have been using a cart he would have been penalised 1 hole for each hole played (upto a maximum of 2 holes). CoC TransportationIf he had already lost the 1st two holes, he would now be 8 down. If he continued to lose holes in normal play, after 6 holes he would be 14 down with 12 to play. 

And one more

If after sacking his father as a caddy he hires two replacements for the remaining holes, he would have been penalised 1 hole for each hole played (upto a maximum of 2 holes). Rule 6-4 CaddieIf he continued to lose holes in normal play, after 5 holes he would be 15 down with 13 to play 

 

[antip]

11 and 9 is theoretically possible in 2019. You get there by losing the first 9 holes and also incurring a two hole match adjustment penalty along the way for a breach of 4.1b that extended over at least 2 holes.

[DaveLeeNC]

There should be some kind of prize for this response :-)

dave

[Newby]

But then I found this

A player carries a non-conforming club (Rule 4-1). He changes the weight of his driver after teeing off, but he does not make a stroke with the club after the adjustment (Rule 4-2). He starts his round with 15 clubs (Rule 4-4a). He has two caddies (Rule 6-4). He violates the one-ball condition on the opening two holes (Appendix I, Part C, Item 1c). He has a parent as a caddie when they are not allowed (Appendix I, Part C, Item 2). He takes an unauthorized ride in a cart on both holes (Appendix I, Part C, Item 8).

If all of these violations are discovered on the second hole, each would carry a two-hole adjustment to the state of the match. That's 14 holes. Assuming the player also loses the first two holes, he now is 16 down with 16 to play.

His opponent could win the 18-hole match on the third hole by a score of 17 and 15.

[Sawgrass]

I concede to accuracy.

[nsxguy]

Brother, I KNEW this post was coming. LOL

So you're a 1 'cap ? And you've only beaten a higher handicapper (net) ONCE ? Seems impossible. Maybe you're just not a very good match play player ?

As Dave said the stats show that the lower handicapper actually has the edge yet you've only won ONCE ? Don't know what to tell you but my experience for many years as a 2-3 'cap (at HOME) I'll usually beat a higher handicapper - giving the strokes of course.

[nsxguy]

Yeah, I thought about "Net Stableford" but I guess I can't wrap my head around that "definition".

To ME, a net score is gross - course handicap. Andy game where you can discount strokes taken, to ME, can't be a true net game. Stableford points counting, to ME, doesn't make it "net". But I guess I get the concept/definition.

[nsxguy]

Assuming you're giving (or getting) strokes in that Stableford that IS the "net" Stableford game being referenced. If there are no strokes given you must be a lonely fellow playing by yourself (or with a couple of other 1 'cappers) because a 10 can't possibly beat you without strokes.

Point is, I'm guessing you really ARE using a "net double bogey" Stableford format already.

As of Jan 1 this will ALSO be how you calculate your score for handicap purposes (NDB instead of ESC)

[bladehunter]

My record in gross match play says otherwise. And yes. As of that match it was up over 1. Spent most of the summer around 0.4. Scoring average right now is 73.1 So pretty dead consistent on 70-75 still not making putts. Lol.

 

At any rate , yes. It just always seems that I bring the best in whoever I play net. The 10 shoots 80 the 15 shoots 85 and so on. I’ve yet to run across the 15 who will shoot himself out. The normal net match usually gets me paired against a 10-12 guy , and pars wont beat him. I hit alot of greens and make a lot of pars. The birdies I make are usually par5s. Guess what. They always get pops on par 5s. So my birdie ties at best.

 

Anyway. No need in Going back down that road. I believe what I see. And you guys believe what you see. I don’t think either of us are lying. But we sure do see different things happen.