New World Handicap System

[Halebopp]

We were told the systems will have an estimated PCC updating itself with each returned score but official calculations are done after the day is over.

 

What you say is definitely the easiest way to do it but it will require a bit of mental gymnastics to overcome the fact handicaps wouldn't be updated in real time anymore.

[Newby]

I don't think USGA handicaps are always updated in real time now. But even under EGA/CONGU they are only updated after a comp has been closed, which may be the following day or even Monday after a Saturday comp.

My understanding is that the front end comp management systems will not have any handicap related algorithms available.

[Halebopp]

The EGA handicaps are updated after each round is finished in a competition, in other words when all the scorecards have been returned and the round is completed in the system. If I miss the cut in our Club Championships (that should read "when" rather than "if" though) and book a tee time for Sunday, my handicap on Sunday is the one after the two rounds of CC even though the competition hasn't finished yet.

 

Of course handicaps aren't changed in the middle of multi-round competitions. As for where the actual computations are made, it doesn't really matter as all the information will need to be visible to the end user regardless of where the actual data is (on the computer at the club, on a server at the software manufacturer or at the national golf association).

[bladehunter]

Lol. So the answer is , there is no answer ? I was asking based on the post i replied to , which listed pin placements.

 

So ehat were we’re dealing with is a “ wizard of oz “ situation where we need a measure of faith to go with it. As in “ pay no attention to the man behind the curtain “.

[bladehunter]

Now that makes logical sense.

Whne i asked above it was in response to the mention of pin placements and tee locations being factored in. So I’m guessing there is no actual accounting for pin placements and tee locations. Just the raw scores those may cause themselves?

How will these scores get compiled ? I think that’s what @nsxguy was alluding to , if you aren’t posting them with the pro shop or there’s zero connection as was said , then how does it factor in course conditions , pin placement and tee locations etc? Just trying to understand what real in this discussion and what isn’t.

[sui generis]

GHIN looks ONLY at scores posted vs predicted scores for PCC adjustments. It doesn't know ANYTHING about weather or hole locations.

[bladehunter]

Thank you. That makes more sense. So it’s still only a comparison to other play for the day , not really a consideration of course conditions , setup etc at all. The numbers could easily bare scores that are higher on a sunny day if there’s much more play and more posting Vs a raining day where 7 groups of die hard players go out and post scores similar to their normal play

 

[ThinkingPlus]

As @sui generis mentioned there is no explicit connection to weather, course conditions, or pin placements. The PCC implicitly handles all adverse or beneficial impacts to scoring by just analyzing the scores themselves. The upside to this a posteriori approach is that you pretty much get every impactor so it is more accurate. The downside is that you would really like an a priori approach that isn't dependent on folks posting scores reliably and efficiently. An a priori approach that tried to do a bottoms up accumulation of impacts would be hideously complex and unlikely to provide good or comprehensive results.

[Sawgrass]

Your contention that a course’s scores must be posted in that course’s pro shop to count in the analysis is off. A timely posting from any app or computer that identifies the course will do.

IMO this whole adjustment is easier to imagine than is given credit for here. What scores are typically achieved vs. what scores are actually achieved on a particular day is simple to imagine.

I can see having an interest in the non-disclosed math details of how this will work, but my underwear is not wadded up over not knowing.

[gwt]

I bet there is a minimum # of scores needed to make a PCC adustment. So if you and your buddies frequent a small course in bad wx-- no adjustment. Good way to sandbag?

[rogolf]

Thinking Plus has described it well.

For further info, go to this website, scroll down to Part B, and read 14.https://www.golf.org.au/whs/

[davep043]

The determination of the handicap is up to the Committee running the tournament. Rule 7.2a suggests that for multi-round or multi-day tournaments, the Handicap should remain unchanged between rounds. But the Committee is free to change handicaps from one day to the next. They could also choose to use the Friday morning Handicap for Saturday events, just for ease of preparation of scorecards.

For the PCC, it will consider all scores posted for that course on the day of play. That includes scores posted by non-members as well as members. If I'm on holiday in Scotland, post my score from the Old Course before midnight, and there are enough scores to calculate a PCC, my score will be one of those used in the calculation. As long as you choose a course and tee (instead of manually entering CR and Slope), and you post before midnight, your score will be in the record for that course on that day and used in determining the PCC. If you wait until you get home to post your score from vacation, the PCC for that course and that day will be applied to your score, even though your score was not used in determining the PCC.

I understand that at many public facilities there may not be a strong culture of prompt handicap posting, so the PCC will probably be applied less often than it should be. That's a problem with the players, not with the system.

[nsxguy]

Thanks Hale.

I'm heading out the door so I only just scanned it but I saw the CBA.

It sounds to me like the document is based "BY CLUB". i.e. All players' scores in a club comp are gathered and then the CBA is calc'd,,,,,,,,, So do casual players who keep handicaps get counted at all or are they totally disregarded ? And if the latter, how do THEY calc/keep their handicaps ? Or is there no such thing as casual golfers, i.e. anybody keeping a handicap must be in a recognized club ?

Sounds like everybody on a given day will be included in the WHS.

[Halebopp]

Yes, that's all good but I was talking about two separate events, whether it's two competitions or qualifying rounds or any combination of these played during the same day. I play in a competition in the morning and have the rest of the day off, we decide to play a net match with a friend in the afternoon, what is my handicap for the match? Our union people didn't have an answer. We were told the PCC calculation would be an on-going process throughout the day and the "current" PCC adjustment is visible in the system at all times even though it will be applied only after the deadline.

[davep043]

Interesting question. My opinion, your handicap is valid for the entire day. Rule 5.4 suggests that it be done that way, but your local competition committee could decide differently.

[Mr. Bean]

(this new version of this forum software is just AWFUL! I cannot edit the quoted text and the cursor moves to a whatever position instead of to the editor like it used to do...)

'Only the scores posted on that day get included. Everyone who keeps a handicap is supposed to post their score on the day they play. '

First part is true but the second is not and that is the biggest change IMO for the USGA people. Every round is not automatically a round to be posted but you need to declare that in particular to your marker before commencing the round. If you do not you are not allowed to post the score for the round. In EGA that has been the practice of as long as I remember and now it is a common feature in the WHS.

[Mr. Bean]

That depends on what kind of round is the 2nd one. If it is a competitive round the player should inform the Committee of that competition about the situation and it is up to the Committee in charge to decide whether they will calculate a new handicap or not. Actually it is not a big deal in most cases as the score from the round earlier during the day just might not affect the handicap at all and that is easy to check.

If that 2nd round is not a competitive round it is up to the committee of the home club of the player to decide how they handle the situation.

[Halebopp]

Yes, pretty much every golfer in Finland is a member of some club. The cheapest memberships are probably around 50 bucks for the season as some clubs use it as a source of extra revenue (the membership fee doesn't include free play at the course). Almost all clubs are also open to visiting players, so you might be a member of a club 400 miles away and never even visit that club but pay green fees to play the courses close to you. So, yes the type of casual golfer you are describing, doesn't really exist over here. And yes, the WHS will be applied to everyone whereas the CBA was only for competitions.

[rogolf]

How will you know if your handicap index has changed? See the link below, and scroll to Rule 5.4 (page 53) and following pages.https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

[DaveLeeNC]

Earlier I had suggested that the PCC adjustment will have a tendency to 'adjust course ratings' as, if a course is rated 'easier than it actually is', then it will be more likely to get PCC adjustments than would otherwise be true. I was assuming that 'expected scores' would be based on HI's and slope/rating. Someone pointed out that 'expected scores' was based on scoring history (vs. HI) and not slope/rating (vs HI). In this case my suggestion was incorrect.

However, in reading the link above it says

The expected average Stableford score for each player in the competition, based on their Daily Handicap; andThe actual Stableford score for each player in the competition.This would imply that 'expected scores' is based on HI and Slope/Rating, and not historical scoring on that course/tee. I would hope that 'expected' is based on slope/rating and not history. This would inject a level of reality into the handicap system that is not currently there (or at least obvious).

dave

 

 

[Newby]

If your competition takes place during the whole day when, during the summer some players may be finishing at twilight time on Saturday is there always someone there to close the comp?

It doesn't matter with EGA or CONGU but it will under WHS.

[rogolf]

Forget about the "comp"; recognize that not all rounds are played in formal competitions, yet the scores can be acceptable for handicap purposes.

[Newby]

That is the point I was trying to make. Closing competitions is completely irrelevant under WHS. It is the time of score entry that matters. PCC is calculated for the scores entered on the day. As are handicap adjustments.

Score entry time applies to extra day, supplementary scores or 'casual' rounds just as much as competition or any other authorised scores in the authorised body's area.

[Halebopp]

Yes, as long as we're talking about properly organized competitions, the club's own weekly competitions, company outings etc. not just 10 guys showing up on a Friday afternoon wanting to arrange a "competition" on the spot and asking the club to provide the services. If a company wants an event at an odd time, it will be accounted for in the invoice though,. The club itself won't organize events in the middle of the night excluding certain special mid-summer or glow-ball events.

Also, we (at our club) don't have club competitions in which you are required to play on a certain date but can do so when ever you want during that day. We have had weekly competitions, in which you simply need to play the round during that week.

[rogolf]

And players can enter their own scores from their phone or home - no need for anyone from the club to be involved.

[Halebopp]

 

Ah, the USGA has published the Rules of Handicapping already, we're still waiting for our version. The Rule could be a bit more clear in my opinion. The way I read it, it says the player's Handicap Index shouldn't be touched but the Playing Handicap could be adjusted if necessary. That would also mean the adjustment is done solely for the purposes of that competition and it should not affect the actual calculations towards the player's handicap. Which, in turn, implies that the player's handicap index for the whole day is what it was at the start of the day.

As for your question about how would I know whether or not my Handicap Index has changed, so far it has been very easy to keep track of my Stableford score during a round and while the WHS is slightly more complicated, I'm pretty sure I'll end up having a pretty good idea of how each round round would affect my handicap. If I don't learn to do it in my head during a round, I'll know it (almost) certainly after I've returned the scorecard after my competition round or posted it online after a qualifying round. (Naturally being only almost certain is due to the PCC.)

[Mr. Bean]

Indeed, the PCC is calculated during the night (2 a.m. in Finland) so any score posted the following day has no influence on that value.

The latter part I did not understand as there are no 'extra days' or 'supplementary scores' in the WHS text.

[rogolf]

The handicap index will not change during the day, but the playing handicap could change due to different tees, different course or different allowances for forms of play. And, based on my understanding that the PCC will only be calculated once, during the night, you would not be able to accurately change your handicap index after the first round that day.

[Mr. Bean]

As I explained earlier the handicap index MAY change during the day. And this is a fact.

[rogolf]

"Acceptable scores" for handicapping seem to be within the authorized association's jurisdiction, ie, it will probably still be different amongst the numerous authorized associations.