Cap Patrol

[Shilgy]

Gotcha...and I am asking because we do have foresees and the pro and I have been discussing this prior to this thread. I am the handicap man on our clubs MGA so have a vested interest. Did you forget to post same day? Is that how the day of play got mixed up?

But that makes me wonder....since foresees can “see” postings can you post from foresees? That would be e good way to get full compliance of posting if players needed to report scores in the shop when finished. The shop could then post all at the end of the day. The only issue would be that a few of our groups use Golf Genius and post from there so double posts would need to be avoided.

[Roadking2003]

I don't think you can post a score in Foretees. And yes, I posted the next day and forgot to change the date.

[Shilgy]

Thanks for the info on foretees. I didn’t mean to sound like I was ragging on you. Just trying to learn more about the fore tees system.

[Bushwood Country Club]

3,000 per year for a club. I’ve seen a presentation, and this is impressive stuff. Very sophisticated.

[Newby]

ForeTees and GHIN Offer Valuable Interfaces | ForeTees ForeTees

[klaugh56]

well it's been over a year and a half since it was introduced and over 300 clubs are using Cap Patrol. It works, no human bias, all data driven and the results are telling. 

 

[Augster]

Not a shill for Cap Patrol. Completely unbiased I am sure. 🙂

[oikos1]

Only 9,300 clubs/courses to go.

[Jayjohnson1970]

Should scores and results from a scramble tournament be uploaded into the cap control system ? 

[TwistedSister]

On 2/18/2022 at 11:35 PM, Jayjohnson1970 said:

Should scores and results from a scramble tournament be uploaded into the cap control system ? 

How could they.  No one has a round score and scrambles are not played by USGA rules.

[MaccaRayDudley]

Some folks have a hell of a brass neck.  I often wonder who these folks think they are kidding.  Its not a bad thing, but is it worth the effort or expense to “out” these folks as everybody knows who they are anyway.  Who cares if they delude themselves to end up 5 places better in a member guest, when nobody really gives them any credit for anything the achieve anyway?

 

I saw some interesting speculation on the accuracy of Cap Patrol on some of the posts above.  If the data is robust it should be accurate for all players.  Cap Patrol is based on probability.  I don’t think somebody rapidly improving has all that much to fear if they are updating their handicap as they improve.  Their handicap should be a real time prediction of the state of their game.  If they aren’t reporting their scores as they improve they are sandbagging either intentionally or unintentionally.  Somebody reporting a score 10 shots better than their handicap is very unlikely, all that Cap Patrol is doing is estimating how unlikely that is.  It’ll identify trends.  Somebody might have that round of a lifetime, but by definition that shouldn’t occur with any regularity.  If it does something else is at play.  You could do that with common sense.  Perhaps Cap Patrol makes it easier to have that discussion since it is based on data not opinion.

[Bushwood Country Club]

On 3/5/2022 at 4:34 PM, MaccaRayDudley said:

Some folks have a hell of a brass neck.  I often wonder who these folks think they are kidding.  Its not a bad thing, but is it worth the effort or expense to “out” these folks as everybody knows who they are anyway.  Who cares if they delude themselves to end up 5 places better in a member guest, when nobody really gives them any credit for anything the achieve anyway?

 

I saw some interesting speculation on the accuracy of Cap Patrol on some of the posts above.  If the data is robust it should be accurate for all players.  Cap Patrol is based on probability.  I don’t think somebody rapidly improving has all that much to fear if they are updating their handicap as they improve.  Their handicap should be a real time prediction of the state of their game.  If they aren’t reporting their scores as they improve they are sandbagging either intentionally or unintentionally.  Somebody reporting a score 10 shots better than their handicap is very unlikely, all that Cap Patrol is doing is estimating how unlikely that is.  It’ll identify trends.  Somebody might have that round of a lifetime, but by definition that shouldn’t occur with any regularity.  If it does something else is at play.  You could do that with common sense.  Perhaps Cap Patrol makes it easier to have that discussion since it is based on data not opinion.

Precisely….on the money

[Mr. Bean]

Real cheaters play only competitions that do not count on the handicap index, such as scramble and greensome, and around here any team competition.

 

We used to have a very nice concept called Business Golf Open. It was a greensome tournament with four qualification competitions, one national final and the real final in Spain, in which the best 5 teams would participate. Then there was this father & son team, handicaps way too high, never changed during all those years they almost every year made their way to the final in Spain. Made me sick but there was nothing one could do. They simply were cheaters and everybody knew it. Today there are more tools for the club to work on this problem but back then there really were none.

[jwb10]

We have Cap Patrol, just instituted. My cap is 2.9, right now, 22 scores in. My cap has been between +1 and 5 for 40 years. FWIW, I've 20 club championships (obviously all gross golf). I've never won an individual net tourney, never. My brother and I won a net team thing in 1994, and I've had some 4,5,6 in club net stuff. I've been accused of a vanity cap, but never sandbagging. I've played ok this year but nothing great, with some nagging injuries. I'm trying to shoot 68 every time, but it hasn't happened. yesterday, e-mail from cap. comm. that I'm being cut going into 2 man calcutta. The cut is from 2.9 to 1.3. I honestly thought it was a gag played by the guys because I'm beating it. Nope, serious. Numbers don't lie, your "potential" is way better, so throw out 22 scores and reality and believe only an algo. with scores from last August. It's great marketing but clearly if you want to fish for minnows like me and miss the 15 who always breaks 80 in net tournaments apparently this is your product. Our comm., manned by only stats, geeks, now has to defend the numbers and use no discretion because "numbers don't lie." Mark Twain knew the 3 kinds of lies; "lies, damnable lies and statistics." GHIN and old fashioned common sense work, Cap Patrol is statistics w/o reason

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, jwb10 said:

We have Cap Patrol, just instituted. My cap is 2.9, right now, 22 scores in. My cap has been between +1 and 5 for 40 years. FWIW, I've 20 club championships (obviously all gross golf). I've never won an individual net tourney, never. My brother and I won a net team thing in 1994, and I've had some 4,5,6 in club net stuff. I've been accused of a vanity cap, but never sandbagging. I've played ok this year but nothing great, with some nagging injuries. I'm trying to shoot 68 every time, but it hasn't happened. yesterday, e-mail from cap. comm. that I'm being cut going into 2 man calcutta. The cut is from 2.9 to 1.3. I honestly thought it was a gag played by the guys because I'm beating it. Nope, serious. Numbers don't lie, your "potential" is way better, so throw out 22 scores and reality and believe only an algo. with scores from last August. It's great marketing but clearly if you want to fish for minnows like me and miss the 15 who always breaks 80 in net tournaments apparently this is your product. Our comm., manned by only stats, geeks, now has to defend the numbers and use no discretion because "numbers don't lie." Mark Twain knew the 3 kinds of lies; "lies, damnable lies and statistics." GHIN and old fashioned common sense work, Cap Patrol is statistics w/o reason

 

 

Oof. That sucks. A lot of people confuse data with information. I think something like this can only really be used to identify possible malfeasance, not to identify actual sandbaggers. You use this to look for clues.

 

I'm one of those players with an "extraordinary round" under my belt. Here are all the scores I've logged in The Grint since coming back to the game in 2020:

 

 

Right in the middle there is a round where I had been sitting at 23.7 and shot a 10.3 differential. That single round dropped my index to 20.4, which means it was STILL >10 difference from my cap after the adjustment. At 23.7, that round would be a likelihood of 1 in 1650. If you apply it to the new cap of 20.4, a differential of >10 would be a likelihood of 1 in 37000. 

 

Was that a competition round? Sure, if you call my $1 skins game with my hit & giggle buddies a competitive round lol. 

 

But I'm sure it would have raised some eyebrows and be flagged by a handicap committee, and quite possibly by Cap Patrol... And if that round had shown up in a real tournament, I'd probably have to fight my way out to my car. 

 

But it was an outlier. And as you'd expect, 20 rounds later you see my index jump right back up--albeit I've improved slightly over that time so it's now about 2 strokes lower than it was before that round. 

[ChaosTheory]

I’ve been a 10-11 for most of the past several years, with a couple of short periods in the 8’s.  And I have shot two 72’s.  If those are once in 50 years, then I must be one in a million.

One time I managed to hit almost every GIR, and the other time I hit a bunch, chipped out of my mind, and made some putts.

 

A big fear of mine is shooting a number like that in a big event at the club.   I wish clubs would enforce posting in some way so that an occasional good score is above reproach.  It’s crazy that bagging is still an unsolved problem.

 

 

[cmatthews77]

On 6/3/2022 at 6:52 PM, Snowman9000 said:

I’ve been a 10-11 for most of the past several years, with a couple of short periods in the 8’s.  And I have shot two 72’s.  If those are once in 50 years, then I must be one in a million.

One time I managed to hit almost every GIR, and the other time I hit a bunch, chipped out of my mind, and made some putts.

 

A big fear of mine is shooting a number like that in a big event at the club.   I wish clubs would enforce posting in some way so that an occasional good score is above reproach.  It’s crazy that bagging is still an unsolved problem.

 

 

 

I'm researching this thread because I'm on competition committee and responsible for some handicap policing that is NOT an easy discussion.  Yes, if you shot a gross 72 in a 18-hole competition as a 10 or 11 handicap it would definitely raise some red flags BUT that's not the main issue.  If the members knew that you posted your scores and didn't suspect you of being a sandbagger then you'd get a bunch of high fives and congratulations.  If, for example you're known to play 2-times a week (20+ rounds a year) and you have like 6 scores posted in your GHIN and then you shoot a 72 as a 10 handicap then yes it would be a big problem! That's what I think the Cap Patrol is trying to solve and also is a problem at our club

Edited August 1, 2022 by cmatthews77

[bcjim]

On 6/3/2022 at 7:52 PM, Snowman9000 said:

I’ve been a 10-11 for most of the past several years, with a couple of short periods in the 8’s.  And I have shot two 72’s.  If those are once in 50 years, then I must be one in a million.

One time I managed to hit almost every GIR, and the other time I hit a bunch, chipped out of my mind, and made some putts.

 

A big fear of mine is shooting a number like that in a big event at the club.   I wish clubs would enforce posting in some way so that an occasional good score is above reproach.  It’s crazy that bagging is still an unsolved problem.

 

 

I'm about the same and my low round in recent years is 76. My home course is reasonably tough though.

 

"Sandbagging" is unsolvable because of two things.

 

1. Some guys just cheat. This a not that huge a problem but it does exist.

 

2. Many more just can't be bothered to grind it out in casual rounds. I'm kind of a grinder, my "anti-handicap" is not that much higher than my HC I suspect. But even I mail it in at times. And other guys definitely mail it in often.

 

Telling golfers they *have* to report all rounds means you get a bunch of half-assed efforts from guys (and gals) that can shoot lower when it counts.

 

You can mandate reporting, you can't mandate effort.

[FriedEgg]

On 1/23/2020 at 7:09 AM, Philomathesq said:

I obviously don’t know what the algorithm is, but I’d like to know how it accounts for changes in one’s game. Based on the article, it seems that it will work perfectly assuming players never improve or get worse, but we all know that isn’t the case. I’m sure we all know a mid-capper (e.g. 10) who shot a personal best 75 and then followed it up with a 96. Both of those scores are outliers, but both are likely innocent. Based on what the article says, I suspect both these scores could be flagged despite being innocent.

 

I AM THAT MID-CAPPER 😆

[golfortennis]

I don't know about the US, but I know my club up here in the great white north, we have no way of knowing, that I am aware of, if a player plays away.  So it is bagging if you're not posting those scores while playing well, but how does anyone know?

 

We have a newish member who has been kicked out some clubs reportedly for his bagging, and he magically shoots his best round of the year in our net championships.  Two days in a row.  It's been tough to get him though because he covers his tracks, or the people he plays with don't care enough to police(rumor is he plays one set of tees and posts a set back that favors his bagging.) 

 

 

[mark m]

1 hour ago, golfortennis said:

I don't know about the US, but I know my club up here in the great white north, we have no way of knowing, that I am aware of, if a player plays away.  So it is bagging if you're not posting those scores while playing well, but how does anyone know?

 

We have a newish member who has been kicked out some clubs reportedly for his bagging, and he magically shoots his best round of the year in our net championships.  Two days in a row.  It's been tough to get him though because he covers his tracks, or the people he plays with don't care enough to police(rumor is he plays one set of tees and posts a set back that favors his bagging.) 

 

 

The first step would be for a Board member or Pro/Course manager to call his previous clubs and ask about his history. Check his scoring record. If you have good solid info, call him in and ask him about it.

 

”Your history shows you play considerably better in competitions, correct?”

 

“Why is that? What is going on in your non competitive rounds?”

 

Away scores: the manipulators typically post gross scores similar to what they score at home, except from a tee with a lower rating, so the differential is not as good and is rarely or never part of the best 8. This helps to bump good scores out of the current 20 and keep the handicap elevated. They never post a good away score.