USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[15th Club]

Sorry; I'm not playing with you. The report is out. Have fun reading the report. Now, we get to the action part...

[Hehateme]

Last year I walked #16 at the TPC , the players, and the fairway rolls faster than most public greens I play. Just listened to Brandel Chamblee, who I despise, and I agree with him. Grow the rough, grow the fairways and make accuracy a premium.

[15th Club]

Why are trees bad? They eliminate angles and recovery. They are bad for turfgrass. Ask Gil Hanse. Ask the members at Oakmont, where they removed 900+ trees. Or Oakland Hills where they removed almost 800 trees. You can't ask Donald Ross because he's dead but I can tell you what he said. He said,“As beautiful as trees are, and as fond as you and I are of them, we still must not lose sight of the fact that there is a limited place for them in golf.”

And lots of roll is wonderful for golf. Ask the NGLA membership. Or the Royal Melbourne membership. Ask Tom Doak, or Geoff Shackelford. Roll is what is essential to the ground game, and what gives life to course architecture.

[Wesquire]

Growing the rough doesn't make the game any better. Make them play for angles and shape around trees.

[Les Strokes]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I did find the last page of the report that was missing from the online versions the media is parroting, which fell on the floor of the copy room:

"We at the R&A and USGA need to justify our salaries and remind people of our importance, so we spent the last two years at strip bars and fancy dinners, and came up with this report which no one should read or take seriously. We came up with a summary doc with bullet points so now the media can inflate this into a discussion that can sell advertising and make pundits like Rich Lerner look like they have a thesaurus. But the simple fact is all we have to do is stop mowing fairways down to pool table felt height; let the grass grow longer and make fairways narrower. And maybe we should stop rolling the fairways and drying them out so they're like an airport runway. We can also make the greens tougher to putt. But we don't qualify for our fat pensions for a few more years so let's drag this out. Bear in mind Rule #@ 56553-78-2000 is in operation at all times "Common sense shall not be allowed during any discussion of these hallowed rules".

[Wesquire]

You have that completely backward. Trees force angles and shotmaking.

 

And there is no ground game, even with cart path fairways.

[Wesquire]

Also strange that you use Ross as an example when Pinehurst is exactly what I would point to as a good example. No rough and trees force shotmaking.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Extremely telling.

I read it. Seems like a big ole study to complain and then do nothing. It honestly couldn't be more on-brand.

[bladehunter]

Fair enough. I’m not at all really saying I see zero benefit. Of course I do. At least on approaches. But I’m greedy just like everyone else. Lol.

 

I do find it funny that now someone here has shown that indeed the slower swinger does see the most benefit from the modern ball , just as I’ve anecdotally said forever. Now I’ll freely admit to being ignorant of the science. But it is nice to know I’m not crazy when citing what I see with my own eyes.

 

At any rate. I suppose I’d be ok if they could truly freeze it where we are. I just have very little faith in the USgas ability to do that. They are The ones who let the horse out of the barn to start with. ( driver size and ball ).

[Dr. Hack]

Except, it’s all fact. Many classic courses have been destroyed in efforts to lengthen and trick them up. Augusta National is one. This is why there has been a movement of tree-removal all over the country, like the recent restorations at Pinehurst.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Removal of 900+ and almost 800 trees? That doesn't sound very "classic". What of the players who had to play around those ~1,700 trees? Sounds like you'd rather destroy those players' legacies than admit any fault in your position.

[Dr. Hack]

It’s clear a lot of people weighing in on this don’t know much about the principles of golf course architecture — width, variety, strategy. There’s books written on this. Those trees weren’t there when the courses were designed. These courses were designed with clear playing strategies in mind that can no longer work as options because of the trees. That’s why they were removed. They need to do the same thing at Augusta.

[duffer987]

That just makes no sense whatsoever. None.

Do some googling around 'vintage US golf course photos' or terms like that and along with being black and white, the other thing that should become immediately obvious is the lack of trees, relative to the way many ended up at the turn of the century

[Sean2]

You played all those courses? Dang!

I have played fewer than 50 different courses in my lifetime, and most of those were municipals. lol

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Agreed. Gotta get rid of those trees to make it classic, right?

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I completely agree. Take all trees down, and watch the game grow.

[BMC]

When someone in your group leaves a putt woefully short, just bring out the USGA - U Suck Go Again.

[cutchemist42]

I just find PGA golf boring as I find even tv doesnt do a good job of making the tee shots exciting TV.

The difference between a 290 and 320 yard drive isnt obvious when watching zoomed in balls landing on the fairway so it's not good tv.

I always judge the entertainment of a sport by what my casual sports fan wife "whoa's" at. 2nd to a putt on an interesting green, she is most thrilled with approach shots. I too find approach shots more interesting, but I'm afraid theres just too many wedge shots in the game.

 

I know I'm in the minority but I both play and follow sports that have neuteured aspects of the sport for entertainment and changing values. I mean, I wasnt thrilled about spending $800 on new goalie pads when the width changed but I think the game is better for it.

F1 cars are slower than they were 20 years ago but the racing is better for the neuteuring.

I dont even want bifurcation.....I want a reduction across the board.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

The explanation is quite simple, really.

TM claims to be gaining the average golfer 20 yards per new generation of clubs since the Burner and possibly earlier. Let’s see, that’s 1993 to 2020 or 27 years.

Hmm, 27* 20 is an additional 540 yards.

By golly, distance is a problem!!!

[QuigleyDU]

I am 100% against bifurcation. But, I could swallow a reduction in driver head size. That way good swings are rewarded and bad are punished. It is equal access the board.

[golfer07840]

I agreed with Brandel before. This "problem" could he solved organically.

 

[golfpunk59]

The game’s essential character and test of skill do not depend on the absolute length of a golf shot or a golf course; the relative relationship between hitting distance and hole length is what matters most.

It makes no difference to me if I hit driver wedge on a 370 yard hole instead of a 410 yard hole.

As for agronomy. The USGA wants the ball to bounce and courses not to spend more money on water. Watering fairways and having balls stop immediately is not golf. "Rub of the green" was in the rule book at one point there is meant to be an element of the unknown and luck in golf.

[Krt22]

It's an abomination that golf is played anywhere else but on a treeless cliff in Scottland. We should just stop with this parkland and resort style nonsense!

[pinhigh27]

Report is hogwash. It shows the average course has increased like 5% in length in 50 years, but maintenance costs adjusted for inflation have doubled. So it's pretty clear increased yardage is not the cause. If you read the charts the course yardages from 1900-1960 increased way more than it has from 1960 to today, so I'm not sure what everyone is up in arms about with courses getting longer due to people hitting it further.

I also don't understand this myth of common golf courses adding tee boxes because they are suddenly obsolete or whatever. Only at elite country clubs trying to host elite amateur/professional events. I know of 0 public or lower-mid range country clubs who have done such.

[Wesquire]

Theres a big difference between overwatering and what tour setups do. Lots of middle ground there.

[indiangolfer]

As a runner, I see a huge battle going in marathon running world at elite levels with Nike ZoomX Vaporfly Next % shoes. These shoes have dramatically altered the competitive balance at top levels but only with incremental benefits at lower levels.

[Jwin323]

This makes a lot of sense. It is akin to the tee it forward movement. Playing from a shorter set of tees does not make a person hit it any straighter or more solidly. OB, penalty areas trees and rough are still in play from the forward tees.

[Hehateme]

You soften the fairways, the ball goes a shorter distance. This increases angles of shots into greens and around corners. Shots into greens become longer which requires a longer lower shot into the green.

[clevited]

Here the funny thing about spin. Tiger always ripped it stupid hard off the tee back in the balata and wound days. He isn't exactly accurate today. What I am trying to say is it is incredibly hard to hit a straight ball even with today's tech. This is especially true the faster you swing. So easy to turn a chunk of that swing speed into crazy side spin and hook it off the planet.

[golfpunk59]

You soften fairway you have a worse product.

Better players have to think about what the ball does when it lands. If you take away having to think about what the ball does when it lands you are creating a simpler games with less skill. Part of the game is on the ground. Balls that fly and stop in the fairway is boring.