USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[oikos1]

"But some of us accept that the system works, and that we have to play well to expect to win, and accept that we've been beaten when a higher handicapper plays better (relative to his ability)."

That's fine, except that it doesn't change the fact that when a more skilled player gives strokes, it brings the less skilled player "up", thereby making it easier for them to compete with the more skilled player. That's why the better player is willing to give strokes, to create some action. No one is going to want to play a money match where they know they have no chance.

I don't know why it's so difficult to call a spade a spade. It's almost like, no, don't peel back the curtain. Nothing to see here.

There is nothing wrong with a lesser skilled player getting strokes (personally I love the first tee negotiations), but why not be honest about what is really happening?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Very small from a materials perspective, but I believe Titleist are hand crafted in Massachusetts?

Joking aside, they last much longer and have a much higher quality feel about them.

[davep043]

I think we're going back and forth primarily about the way we describe how the system works, and the descriptions we choose reflect different viewpoints. Its not a matter of honesty, but an expression of our opinions. It either "makes it easier for the poorer player" or it "makes the competition more even for all". Both are true, but the choice reflects our own viewpoint.

[Pepperturbo]

Though Top Golf brings fun to whacking a golf ball, it's just a practice range on steroids that offers a unique approach to people that may or may not be golfers or have the temperament to golf. Combined with regular practice ranges, it's a plus though for golf's big picture. One that many people that poo-poo golfs expansion either ignore or discount because it doesn't support their bias. Being a businessman, I value research as opposed to conjecture, which at times, is too prevalent in some of these threads.

National Golf Foundation provides valued data to various golf market segments. Golf Research and Industry Data | National Golf FoundationNGF research says 107 million - one of every three people over age 6 played golf on-course or off-course, watched the sport on TV, or read about golf in 2018. NFG estimates 2.6 million NEW people were introduced to golf in some fashion. How that occurred remains to be seen, but it is on the plus side for the growth of golf.  IMO golf course owners, Pro Shop Pros, and local golf store management need to reevaluate and or implement core P&L management principles. As it is, since growth exists, maybe management's perception is distorted.

Here's one for the naysayers. Over the last five years, the industry has had more than 2M beginners each year; by comparison, 2011 had estimated 1.5M beginners. The previous high was 2.4M at the height of Tiger Woods in 2000. That tells any critical mind golf remains on a pretty good footing, growth-wise. Accordingly, the golf world should identify who says otherwise and ignore them, regardless of name. Now, back to our regularly scheduled baloney fest by naysayers. ?

[BIG STU]

LOL that was a good ball back in the day--Trust me some of us gamblers played the English Sized balls over here back in the day--- In fact I still have a brand new Dunlop 65 still in it's wrapper along with some English sized Penfolds, Spalding Dots and even Titleist

[BIG STU]

Personally when I have to give strokes or holes (depending on the game) I am already down on the first tee so it makes me knuckle down harder and concentrate. But then again back in my gambling days like any good hustler I figured I had the game won before going to the first tee. I have never played any amateur handicap events and I honestly am not sure of my mind set for that

[Pepperturbo]

@Sean2 - You replace wedges semi-regular (annual?) WOW - you must hit the ball pretty hard to cause that kind of wear. I still play with 2016 SM6 wedges and they spin fine for me, and thought I hit the ball hard. The only equipment in my bag that gets replaced regularly is golf balls. One ball typically lasts about 7-8 rounds before it is goes to the shag bag.
I am 70 and average 3 times per week plus take 3-4 golf vacations (1-3 weeks ea) yearly where we play every day. My buddy plays about the same number as me, and both our wives get in average 1-2 rds per week (we golf vacation together.) Other friends play 1-2 times per weeks. At my last two clubs there are a number of guys that play over 100 times per year. On the other hand, Baby Boomers 65 and over played an average of 35 rds.

[mahonie]

I still have a couple of original 65s in the black paper wrapping too. Also, guy I went to school with now owns Penfold Golf...doesn’t play golf though!

[mahonie]

How would you know...I’ve heard you slice every other tee shot out-of-bounds lol ?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

33.5M Americans 6+ played golf on or off course.

107M Americans played, watched or read about golf.

My conclusion is than 64M either saw golf or read about it. That could be anything from reading the Paparazzi publications regarding Tiger’s infidelity to anything else.

More interesting to me is how many of the 33.5M played on course?

Many of the facilities that I’ve been to seem much emptier than they should be. Seems like many private clubs that at one time were considered “very exclusive” are sending me spam to join.

It doesn’t seem like golf is really growing as much as some are promoting?

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Haha! Right! I assume that other golfers will enjoy their use as much as my one shot. Lol!

[Pepperturbo]

Are you implying those stats are not real? Promoting membership is not in itself a cry for membership, just prudent leadership. I have no idea what clubs are spaming you to be a member. Not something I've seen.

At my last club the BOD (I was one) wanted a targeted research report. It was so expensive we decided against it, so I tasked one of my staff do it and it took nearly three months. I don't know what you're expecting to see at golf courses, but it's visually hard to quantify growth in a pro-shop or parking lot. That's not how golf growth is measured. Retail sales, instruction, all levels of youth golf, First-Tee, full-fields for regional golf events even full-field charity golf events help to measure. Thanks to the internet golf courses and discount websites are better at managing and filling tee sheets and fewer singles stand around waiting to be called to fill a foursome. There are more company sponsored tournaments taking up weekend slots too. Last weekend each day we played behind two large events, sheets were filled from 6:30a to 2pm. Some courses are finally raising green fees too.

Some of the lessor costly private clubs are looking for new members, but that doesn't mean membership is below break-even or in trouble, and high end clubs may promote but accept it's a long-term project. Again promoting a club or membership is not a cry for members.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I don’t doubt the numbers at all, but the numbers themselves are not well defined.

[gvogel]

Who cares how much golf is growing? It's a darn difficult game that only appeals to a small slice of the population. If you want to play the game over a long period of time, you have to have been talented at the time you took up the game (very flexible in the wrists, and in the lower back), or just consumed with a desire to play the game well.

It is a darn tough game to play well. They could make the driver 560 cc, and the ball go forever, and the game wouldn't be any easier for beginners - unless they have the talent to become good at the game.

The game is not for everyone.

On the other hand, where I play on a muni, your can't get out later in the afternoon unless you are a member of a league. And the course has three nines. The course is loaded with players.

Grow the game? Where I play the game can't sustain anymore growth.

[bladehunter]

100 % agree. If you are in “ golf country “ it’s as busy or more busy as ever. If you’re in areas where weather kills the industry 8 months a year. Well. You can’t really expect growth. Sure. Courses close in resort areas. Why ? Property values is #1 reason. Not because more players are needed.

[Roadking2003]

Low cappers frequently complain about handicaps and talk about playing straight up. Until somebody like Phil MIckelson joins them on the first tee. Then they would run and hide.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

I wouldn’t mind losing to Phil if I were even good enough to stay in the game? Lol.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Wrong. You think I wouldn’t pay a couple grand for a round with Phil ? You’re wrong Not for the star aspect. For the lesson. I’d shut up and watch.

that’s what people don’t get . Most of us paid for our education. How ? Loosing while getting better. You can’t get into most games with great players without playing even. And you go in knowing you’ll pay out.

[oikos1]

Lol. No kidding. Not only would I play, but I would absolutely negotiate for strokes on the first tee. And, from what I understand about how Phil likes to gamble, I get the impression he would oblige.

Giving/getting strokes is a two way street if you want to have action. That's why negotiation is far more acceptable and enjoyable than "having to give" strokes. No one should have to give anything if they don't want to. They're just not going to get a lot of action.

[Mudguard]

So what do you negotiate from Mickelson? He's a pro, so no handicap, traditionally pros when they have to fill in member events will play off zero, so if you're a +1, you'll give Phil a stroke on the toughest hole? Why not use an internationally recognised system for evaluating an individual's ability, a system designed so that golfers of a differing ability can compete on the same course and competition.

As I've mentioned, my brother is a professional, we play together every Saturday and in the last twenty years I have beaten him off the stick less than a dozen times. Why would I negotiate anything other than my allocated strokes? He actually keeps a handicap, because members didn't want pros playing off zero, so it's even easier. If you meet a stranger on the first tee and they negotiate ten strokes from you, turns out they're off scratch and just a better negotiator. As well as golfer, wouldn't it be better to find out what there index is?

[bladehunter]

He keeps a cap. Member at whisper rock.

 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/yes-some-tour-pros-have-a-handicap-phils-is-52/amp

[bladehunter]

And nobody is talking about negotiating with strangers.

 

I play with several guys who’s caps are lower than mine . Some as Low as plus 3 ... mine up to 1.3 right now. I’ve never taken a shot from them. And I beat them as often as they beat me. Especially if it’s match play. I mean no way they’d give me a shot. And no way I’d feel honest t taking one.

[deadsolid...shank]

I can respect you not taking any strokes. That’s absolutely your choice (I thinks it’s nuts not to take them, but that’s another discussion). But why shouldn’t you feel honest taking something that you are 100% entitled to? Maybe it’s just semantics, but you can’t get more honest than taking what is rightfully yours.

[bladehunter]

Well. I suppose the easiest answer is that i don’t believe in the handicap idea. Therefore I don’t think they are rightfully mine. Generally speaking birds of A feather congregate in the same circles. And from around plus 2 to a 2 you’re only really talking about putting ( scoring ) and/or consistency. Minimizing bogeys/doubles and making a lot inside 5 feet. ( my opinion ). Not as much ability most times as consistency.

[Mudguard]

That's an unusual response, what happened when you're thirteen years old and starting, or when you're fifty and perhaps eighty is a good number? Hope the group around you evolve the same way?

[bladehunter]

Never played as a 13 year old. Or a 33 year old.

and I play with a 54 and 70 year old a lot who aren’t getting a shot from anybody. Especially me. Lol. And don’t need them. Both are professionals of many years to be fair. But the word pro doesn’t make them super human. They aren’t tour pros. And I truly do not believe age makes a difference. Not in the way that you reach a number and oof.cant play. Sure. The 70 year old isn’t playing from the tips anymore. But he’ll still out score 99% of any age out there if you give him his tee box. Not kidding. I’ve taken a lot of money paired with that man.

 

im not pushing my views on anybody else. But that’s just me. I’ve had this conversation many times , if I get to a place where I can’t play against par , I’ll give All my clubs to a deserving kid and walk away. I can’t imagine playing a game so hard if I couldn’t see daylight sometimes. It’s all perspective. As in most don’t know what they don’t know.

[Mudguard]

Age makes a pretty big difference. I would say anyone playing off scratch after age fifty is doing really well. We have a 70 year old in our group and he still threatens par, but his handicap is now six. Loses yards each year but plays the same tees as us.

How do you play matches off mixed tees? No handicaps either?

[deadsolid...shank]

If the 70:year old is playing different tees then he’s essentially getting strokes, basically the difference in rating. It’s still being handicapped, just in a different manner, because the reality is if you’re not all playing off the same tees then you’re not playing straight up.

If I read correctly that you guys are playing your matches from different tees and you weren’t saying he plays up at other times. Sorry, wasn’t really sure which way you were saying.

[Roadking2003]

If you beat people with caps that are four better than you as much as they beat you, either they have a vanity cap or you are sandbagging.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Or I’m correct. That the Margin isn’t that wide once you get around 0. Comes down to shortgame for me. As in getting it in the hole. Why is a 4 shot swing so hard to believe ?