USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[ThinkingPlus]

Yep, if they are already rated combo tees.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Or. It’s time for you to stop getting your knickers in a twist because of the decision a group makes to accommodate a longtime member. To equate a partially mixed tee to handicap play is as false of a narrative as can be. You do realize we’re talking money games here. Where games like wolf or similar are employed. Not sanctioned silly club events. Right ?

you’ve failed to make Your point.

mid you choose to be a slave to age THats you. It’s not me. And I find it ironic that I’m the one who’s called old and out of touch. Lol.

[ThinkingPlus]

I don't believe I have ever seen that restriction. Seems to me delta yardage is delta yardage. While angles can make a difference in the way a hole is played, the majority of difficulty on any given hole is primarily distance.

[Mudguard]

You let another player have a "handicap" in theory by playing a shorter course. You embrace the handicap system after all! Just not officially.

[Mudguard]

I think I've misunderstood. You start a round, and you have to play whichever colour/named tee for the course. The greenstaff can move the coloured tees around the various blocks, but you can't play the black markers and then go to a blue marker for one hole. If the black marker is on the blue block, then that's fine. The former is what Bladehunter is allowing his elderly but not aged friend do.

Technically there is an allowance for variation in the length of holes before the rating is compromised. I can't remember what it is here, someone mentioned 300y but I think it's 300m in New Zealand. And in theory you're supposed to balance it out. So if you have a tee moved up a block because of remedial work for example, you're supposed to push one back on another hole to compensate.

[CasualLie]

That's funny considering this thread was started by Quigly.

The thing is, any reasonable argument you make is destroyed by your own words when you write " They are accountable for details that a Brooks Koepka or a Dustin Johnson or a thousand sports talk radio guys cannot even conceive."

Cannot even conceive??? Why the vitriol? It does not make your argument any stronger; it just sparks the many examples of USGA arrogance. I'm not defending BK, DJ, or a thousand talk radio guys, but really? That is the argument? I guess it is not a surprise from the person who wanted us all to bow to USGA because of how they set up Pebble and pretty much ignore Woodland and the rest of the players. "It was the USGA that took Pebble and put it on the Majors map" Right...nothing to do with Nicklaus, Watson, and Tiger.

What I wonder is how is Quigly so sure you are not paid by USGA? I hope you are, that would make sense. Or maybe you are angling for a role there....how else to explain being the sycophantic behavior?!

[Pepperturbo]

Saying it's about tees shows a lack of knowledge regarding me. Tees or yardage have nothing to do with my thinking in golf. It's what kind of man I am, how I live and tackle life and enjoy facing and running "over" obstacles, as opposed to around them or wishing golf or success was easier. I have never looked for an edge in life, that's probably why I was able to found and as CEO build three company's, sell two and the other still successfully in operation after forty years, all while teaching myself the game at 40 years old. I like challenge and being tested, even still at my age. Nope, we're different in many ways but that's okay.

[smashdn]

Local course has done this. It is a mix of white and blue (furthest back) tees. It is rated so if you want something between the traditional "men's" whites and the championship tips you have it. Options without much of a cost. I thought it was a great idea and wish they had carried it on between all the sets of tees.

[DFS PFD]

I'm very glad you've had so much success, I will make sure I keep that in mind next time I wish to have a discussion with you. Didn't mean to infer any "lack of knowledge" on your part. My observation (which you've made abundantly clear doesn't relate to you) is many golfers, seniors included, play from the wrong tee's to protect their ego or pride. I can't think of too many people who couldn't benefit from moving up a tee (I know you wouldn't you've got it figured out), but the rest of us need the help. Sorry for rubbing you the wrong way apparently. Guess I don't see playing different tee's as an obstacle that need to be "run over".

[mahonie]

It’s quite revealing following the handicap/different tees debate that’s been going on. It’s obvious that the distance issue has already got you guys over that side of the pond to a point of no return. Without the distance problem, there wouldn’t have been the need to build courses with multiple tees. It also appears that the handicap system is not being administered correctly or lip service is paid and the disparity between abilities cannot now be accommodated by a singular set of tees. I may be misreading, but it appears that golf is too far gone down the distance rabbit hole to be rescued over there.

Golf is the only game that lets people with different abilities compete on a level playing field. It really is a beautiful concept and if applied correctly works perfectly. Take that away and you’ve already lost the game.

[bladehunter]

?‍♂️I realize there’s a culture barrier between us. Meaning you aren’t using the US system. ( unless I’m mistaken ).

 

so I understand that your love for it makes sense to you. If I understand correctly you have to post attested scores only , or have some other oversight difference than what we have. Committee posting comps only etc. Right ? We have no such thing here. We have to trust that everyone is honest. And shocker. They aren’t. Even if they where there hasnt been nor ever will be trust in that being the case. Some will be quick to jump on that. I’ll go ahead and point them to the many sandbagger threads that get started here and ask how much smoke before you yell fire ? And without trust of that you’ll never have a large low handicap turnout. Don’t believe me. Canvas any US am net event. On the men’s side you might be in a flight by yourself. Yet. I can round up 20 or more scratch or better players in an hours time to go play anywhere off the stick. It’s not lack of low cap players. It’s lack of trust in the system.

my point. Equating a negotiated concession to a long time competitor on the tee to the use of the system at large is grossly inaccurate.

 

I mean to your point , we have a lot of cart riders too. I walk unless made to do otherwise. I suppose we’re giving out handicap allotments for cart riders too ? What about clubs ? How many headcovers before it’s a handicap ? And on and on.

[ThinkingPlus]

Here any distance difference between the rated distance and the actual distance less than 100 yards is considered a wash with no adjustment required for either CR or slope. If you play an unrated set of tees where the next closest rated tees have a distance difference between 100 yards and 300 yards then an adjustment to CR and slope can be made using USGA supplied lookup tables for posting purposes. I believe one could assert that playing forward on a few holes from a different tee box would constitute playing an unrated set of tees. As such if the distance difference fell between 100 yards and 300 yards the USGA sanctioned procedure could be followed.

[ThinkingPlus]

I think the multiple tee boxes is all about appealing to as large a set of golfers as possible with your course. Daily fee courses need to be inclusive to keep folks coming back to pay and play. For example, having a single men's tee that has a hole with a 225 yard forced carry is going to eliminate most male golfers. While that might be OK at a club catering exclusively to single digit golfers, it would put a daily fee course out of business pretty quickly.

[oikos1]

You might want to review the history of handicapping before declaring the system works perfectly, There has been a long history of problems associated with the numerous systems that have evolved to this point. I suppose maybe it's finally been gotten right, that there couldn't possibly be anything more perfect as you suggest. Funny how that happens to be just at this point in time. So perfect (note the system just changed again and the Pope of Slope doesn't care for it).

 

[Pepperturbo]

How old are you? I ask because your response was almost argumentative. Why? I was responding to you honestly, not argumentative or trying to illicit a smart azz response but remind you we're not all cut from the same cloth. Your observation is simplistic at best. And nobody is forcing you to play from the back tees either, least of all your game. If it's so hard, move up. Nobody is stopping you. I surely don't give a squat.

[bladehunter]

Oh yea. It’s been gone. You Absolutely cannot play loads of guys on this site against “ the average player “ and have any semblance of rhythm , pace of play or actual competition. What does a 170 plus yard 8 iron player have in common with a driver going 200 ? Not much. To think there’s a system of score that can bridge that gap is laughable. It’s beyond me how anyone can think it can.

 

and to be clear. I’m not at all talking about score.

[QuigleyDU]

I am confused... haha. Don't worry, it happens easily and regularly. But what is the issue here?

[Mudguard]

I'm tired of not being being able to edit quotes.my point. Equating a negotiated concession to a long time competitor on the tee to the use of the system at large is grossly inaccurate.

This is virtually identical to the handicap system. You're letting a player of lesser ability, play a shorter course so that he can compete. What else do you think the handicap is for? So that I can play for a beer with someone who is on a twenty and have a competitive match.

I mean to your point , we have a lot of cart riders too. I walk unless made to do otherwise. I suppose we’re giving out handicap allotments for cart riders too ?

We don't allow carts for any serious events. It is well understood that a cart is an advantage, especially when playing 72 holes in a weekend. I'm not saying our system is perfect, it is vulnerable to a player who plays by themselves during the week, may multiple nines, so their handicap isn't influenced by these rounds, but might play a full round every couple of months off a handicap that doesn't reflect their ability (the WHS looks to be addressing it with it's one year low score aspect).

Perhaps in a decade if the negative aspects of GHIN are dealt to, then a handicap in the US might be seen as more valid? You say you round up scratch golfers, but based on your belief, how does the rest of the world know they're scratch golfers? In my view, if you don't maintain an attested handicap, you're not a golfer.

[mahonie]

Why the need to have a hole with a forced carry that only 5-10% of players have any hope of carrying? It’s just a sign of poor, lazy design driven by the need to have a par 3 that the top players can hit with 5-6 iron.

[mahonie]

I realise it’s not perfect and I think we are taking a massive step back taking on the World System...we’ll see by the end of the year.

[Mudguard]

 

We have two holes like this at my old course. Not that distance, perhaps 100m, but it absolutely had to be hit that distance. Fine for those who just flick a wedge, but the first one was to a raised green as well, so it was murderous on lady and older golfers. And these are the second shots on par fours. The worst hole meant ladies were hitting a short iron off the tee, then trying to crank three wood over the gap. It seemed like reverse golf. A terrible design.

[mahonie]

My playing partner plays off 27 and is the 200 yard driver guy...if he hits it! Our handicaps are set by playing golf under competition rules and I know I’m giving him nearly a shot a hole when we play matchplay, but there is never an issue with rhythm, pace of play or competition. He understands etiquette, is ready to play when it’s his turn, no problems.

I know if I shoot my handicap, I’ve got a 50/50 chance of beating him because he could also shoot his handicap...we are still measuring our ability against the same course, it’s just that we’re playing each other at the same time. You wouldn’t believe how many close matches we’ve had separated by one or two holes. That we can do that given the difference in our abilities is the essence of golf’s unique attraction.

I know handicaps aren’t perfect, but the fact that our current UK system means that they have to stand up to scrutiny under rules of competition means that they are as sacrosanct as they can be. I’m not looking forward to the level of sandbagging that the World System will introduce.

[mahonie]

It’s surprising just how many bad holes there are out there. In my book, every hole has to give you a chance at birdie but to get the chance you’ve got to play good shots. Hit a bad shot and you should be expecting bogey or worse unless you pull off an exceptional recovery. Good architects know how to make courses like this...like many of the long dead guys that the distance boys don’t think are worth a bean.

[QuigleyDU]

What about the new system allows for more sand bagging over the old?

 

we have hit an all time tangent but let’s just roll with it.

[mahonie]

Forgive my very sparse knowledge and ignorance, but I understand that the best 8 out of 20 rounds (including recreational rounds) are averaged to arrive at the handicap. Based on that approach over my last 20 rounds, my handicap should be about 15 (it’s really 11) and I could use that to my advantage for any competitive/money round. Who’s policing the recreational rounds?

[ThinkingPlus]

Oh, I agree it is crap design. Lots of lazy designers use such approaches. They also create wide open firm and fast layouts with no penalties for missing the fairway and then whine because everybody and their brother shreds the place. That is the real discussion to be had, but I am somewhat of a heretic around here so... .

[15th Club]

I think — and I think this is borne out by many comments here — that the GolfWRX demographic is prone to like and respect the stars on Tour. So when the Tour stars speak out on sometlike a ball rollback (which is sort of rare, frankly), they seem to get some special credence.

I think that it is important to remind this demographic that many of those stars are sponsored by companies that are very actively opposing any rollback. I think that I have been the first, and maybe the only one beside Geoff Shackelford, to emphasize that very salient point on these forums. It is a point that is as important as it is hard-edged; to preemptively discredit much-admired Titleist’s Tour stars in this debate before it really heats up. Of course those guys can speak to the issues if they wish. But of course they need to answer questions about conflicts of interest.

 

[QuigleyDU]

wouldn’t it be the player submitting them?

[QuigleyDU]

I am not sure, but I choose to accept @15th Club at his word. On a Internet forum, that is how I choose to play the game. I hope that in doing so I am given the same respect. If he is paid or not really makes no difference to me.

[mahonie]

I think that’s my point.