USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[Mudguard]

You can't agree to waive a rule of golf. Again I understand there is a pretty US centric view that the (your?) handicap system is flawed somewhat, whether that's around the GHIN system, there's no requirement for peer review (IE having a marker attest your score), but in other parts of the world a handicap is a source of pride. It's been mentioned in this thread, oh if I get ten shots from Bob, why would I need to improve my game? Because everyone wants a lower handicap.

So mixing up tees is basically hit and giggle. Which is fine if that's what you want. But if someone says their handicap is x, how do you know how often they actually play properly?

A friend of mine plays with older guys, a couple who are almost eighty (one shoots his age regularly), they play of the shortest tee, and my friend plays the club tee which is two tees further back. He gets an absolute toweling every week as they won't allocate him the shots he is due because he's playing a course that's much longer. Yes you can say it's only a distance thing, and he's stronger than the older guys, but he's not so strong when he has to hit four iron on a 160m par three and they're hitting wedges from 80m.

[QuigleyDU]

I do not think we are necessarily disagreeing. When posting a score to your handicap you absolutely must play all the same tees. In a match, you can set local rules as you see fit to a certain extent.

[bladehunter]

Nope. The committee approved his tees. ( our 16-20 man group). So it’s perfectly legal.

This wasn’t an example meant for dissection. Just to show that age doesn’t matter. He played same tees until his heart surgery that robbed him of some distance. Birthdays didn’t factor in directly. We make this concession for his continued company. We have all learned from his presence.

the greater point was that age is an excuse more than a reason. Also won’t be a popular opinion. But I’ve been told I can’t all my life. And I don’t listen. I do. Father Time is undefeated for sure. But to give in to his advances at 50 is a sad tale.

 

I guess I’m just of the opinion that a lot rely on the handicap system as a crutch , rather than attempt to improve and find like ability players to play with. And some are doing the best they can. I get that too.

but you aren’t going to get into the best groups to play with unless you’re 1. Serious about the game 2. If you’re looking for shots. That would be the one and done invite situation with the Players I’m talking about. It’s just a different game.

[15th Club]

Quigly what we know from dozens of similar threads on GolfWRX is that these things follow a pattern. It’s like this:

We start off with news about a ball rollback; a notable quote, a statement, a USGA report, an Acushnet press release ... something. Sometimes just an innocent question from a member.

And then we start talking about the merits of the arguments on both sides. And often, I will suggest that some of the decision making is at an aesthetic level; what kind of game is desired, apart from pure statistics and scoring.

And always, there will be someone who will insult the USGA — for some imagined offense like the groove rule, or some preposterous falsehood like “Tigerproofing,” or some attack on USGA leadership as wealthy incompetents dabbling in professional golf when they should stick to amateur golf.

That — not before — is when I push back. And my pushback is always deservedly administered.

I fully understand how carefully the USGA needs to proceed, especially right now. They are accountable for details that a Brooks Koepka or a Dustin Johnson or a thousand sports talk radio guys cannot even conceive. And so with the USGA’s detractors having space to talk trash in a way that the USGA cannot, I rather like being able to advocate the USGA’s side in an unvarnished way.

 

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

There’s this misguided belief that hitting the ball shorter will not affect handicap.

I’d like to point out that course ratings are mostly dictated by distance. Therefore, distance does affect handicap, pretty directly. Even if you score the same on shorter tees, assuming you can play up more, your handicap goes up. If you play the same tees as always with shorter shots, by definition, you will take more strokes and more time.

[DFS PFD]

Still don't know what's wrong with moving up a tee for players currently (without a roll back) I am long (not like Quig) but 120+ SS and often play from shorter tee's even ladies tee's because it changes the course entirely. Takes driver out of hand very often and forces mid-long irons off the tee. The problem I see is for the ladies who can't move up another tee. I'd still rather see new ladies tee's constructed than more tips that are played by 1%er's.

[bladehunter]

1000.%. Im telling stories of a 70 year old heart attack survivor who doesn’t play the front tees. ( we have a set forward of the seniors ) and they are acting like they can’t move up .... it’s nuts.

mid absolutely be for raising money to build new ladies tees if it reset the game.

[bladehunter]

Sorry. I don’t mean this personally. Just at everyone.

 

what about Broadie ? Lol. As in according to the gospels of Broadie closer will mean better scores over time. So it’s physically impossible for handicaps to go up.

[Mudguard]

A committee cannot over rule the rules of golf either. They can't make up local rules to this effect. If he's playing mixed tees, he's not playing golf where he can submit a card or keep a handicap. Which if that's what he wants then that's fine. He's just not playing golf as we know it.

Of course age is a factor. Why is there a Senior Tour? Why aren't older player winning Majors? Is heart surgery common for those under a certain age? I'm approaching the age where I am not going to hit a ball any further without serious gym work. I was looking up the fitting I did for the 906R and my swing speed is still the same. But the reality is, it won't stay that way.

[Mudguard]

There's a misguided belief that hitting the ball further will not affect handicap. As I mentioned, all this tech, and the average handicap hasn't changed. Yes courses are rated on distance, they have to be rated on something. What I'm saying is there is a chance that if a ball was reduced in distance by 10%, some might hit it 10% straighter. They might improve scores!!

[QuigleyDU]

I understand pushing back. I sincerely admire your persistence. I also appreciate this response. This is the kind of well thought and meaningful response I like to see. Thank you.

 

These threads typically have a short shelf life before they become bitter and need to be tossed. This one has really done better than expected.

[smashdn]

Depending upon whether you believe the statement/study, despite hitting it farther over the years, the average,average player's handicap has not dropped. Why would the inverse be true?

 

I agree with your premise though. It makes sense conceptually. If I am farther from the hole it should be harder for me to score and therefore my handicap should go up. But there must be some data somewhere or a study that says for an average, average golfer it makes no real difference whether he is hitting from 100 or 120 or 150 or 170. His chances of scoring lower due to that 20 yards has not manifested itself in lower handicaps (if you believe the published studies).

 

Ergo, I simply can't get on board that reducing distance raises handicaps, increasing distance has no impact. Something isn't meshing.

[ThinkingPlus]

Actually in demesnes governed by the USGA rounds can be posted for mixed tees if the yardage difference is less than 300 yards. The golfer adjusts the CR and slope according to lookup tables provided by the USGA.

[bladehunter]

He doesn’t keep a handicap. He’s a pga master pro.

 

and while you maybe technically correct if he were an am trying to post scores. I resent the idea that letting a person who abides by the games rules more than anyone I know , choose to bump ahead on a 210 yard par 3 , is not playing by the rules. All the while most people who play allow breakfast balls , give putts when it’s inside the leather and might have 20 clubs in their bags on any given day. Not to mention all the other foot wedges and lie fluffer/ball rollers that are everywhere.

at this point I don’t know what your point is , except to disagree with me because I’m not a handicap fan. And that’s fine. But I don’t see how my friends and our groups concession to him factors in.

[Pepperturbo]

I appreciate your example, as it somewhat applies to me. I (70yr old) quite often play 6000-6300yd tees using irons and do so by my own "volition".  The crazy wrong part comes if someone forces me to move up a tee box because some goofball authority thinks rolling back the ball is the best answer to a problem that doesn't exist.
I am not a big hitter 240+ but still hit the ball reasonably well for an old guy. As a result, if I chose to play longer tees and in some regional amateur events. I can. But with less than ProV ball, I would no longer be competitive in local events. I DO NOT tolerate or take kindly to ANYONE forcing me to do anything. Also, it would change the game too much for me, someone that spends lots of $$$$$ on golf each year, and plays over 200 times, pays for two-three golfers, and 3-4 (1-3 wk) golf vacations each year wouldn't exist. Do that math. Up to ten buddies spend similarly. If we leave the game there's a financial consequence, and we're not alone.
@Mudguard "might" hit it straighter for average Joe is NOT guaranteed. However, hitting it shorter is guaranteed, therefore likely to derogatorily affect index. I learned the game with Balata and Professional 100. NO way would I want to go back to any ball type ball that is remotely similar.

[Mudguard]

Playing off the wrong tee is the same as gimmes in my book. Why not play the whole course off the same tee set then?

[davep043]

Another option, and I don't know if this is the case for @Jack_H friend, the club may have a rating done for a specific mix of combo tees, so the player is actually on a "rated course", even if its 8 specific green tees and the remaining 10 white tees, or whatever.

[15th Club]

Are these the people who should dictate terms on what the USGA’s Overall Distance Standard testing (and any revisions of that testing) should look like?

Quote: “... All the while most people who play allow breakfast balls , give putts when it’s inside the leather and might have 20 clubs in their bags on any given day. Not to mention all the other foot wedges and lie fluffer/ball rollers that are everywhere..,”

 

[DFS PFD]

So suppose you wish to play in a large organized tournament, and they dictate the tees you play from based on age or handicap, do you take issue with that?

[bladehunter]

Lol. Good grief. I don’t mean it personally. As I’m not upset at all. But.

I have no idea why we are focusing on my short blurb of an anecdote? It was in response to your assertion that I’d need to use a handicap eventually because of age. I disagree. If you choose to play that way it’s fine. I can choose not to. It’s that simple. And I’ll never be alone in that. You can find players anywhere that prefer not to play with shots or to negotiate them on the tee based on past play.

and the caveat to all that is I’m talking like ability players. Nobody , especially me is looking to play higher handicap players for money even. That’s not at all what I’m saying.

[Mudguard]

 

Yes you can have variation in which block the actual tee is on. But they have to placed there. If you're playing the black tees for example, and he moves up to the blue tee for a hole, that's a no go. If the black marker is on the blue block then that's fine. All courses do that occasionally to give tee blocks a rest, or there might be work going on.

[oikos1]

Post #2753"I can respect you not taking any strokes. That’s absolutely your choice (I thinks it’s nuts not to take them, but that’s another discussion). But why shouldn’t you feel honest taking something that you are 100% entitled to? Maybe it’s just semantics, but you can’t get more honest than taking what is rightfully yours."

We don't have to discuss this further necessarily, but I do want to make sure we have the facts straight. It was also liked by two others so there absolutely is a sense of "entitlement" when it comes to handicaps.

[Mudguard]

Because it's a contradictory position. On the one hand you're suggesting handicaps aren't a valid measure of ability, that you don't believe in them. Which I can understand if you didn't take the game up as kid, I'm pretty sure I couldn't hit it 100m with a driver when I started.

You state that your games are off the stick, that there are no gimmes etc, but you let another play off different tees if the hole is a bit long? To me that's worse than gimmes, you're no longer playing the same course. If he can't play all of tees, why not move up, or have everyone move up? I get that he probably wants to play with his friends, but as you pointed out earlier, "but you aren’t going to get into the best groups to play with unless you’re 1. Serious about the game 2. If you’re looking for shots. That would be the one and done invite situation with the Players I’m talking about. It’s just a different game.

Perhaps it's time for your mate to change groups if he's not serious about the game.

[Pepperturbo]

Depends on how its setup. If they say because I am a "3" and have to play from where scratch plays, I am fine with that. I live up to performance, not down. However, if they tell me because of my age I have to play forward tees 5500+yds, I react and probably not play.

I played in a 4-man team event about three weeks back that said 60+ guys played from green tees. I was near the oldest in the field but the only low single digit old guy in the field. My 3-team mates were in their 40's and early 50's and quite excited having me play the short tees, so I did. We putted for eagle on all four Par 5's and had lots of birdies. We finished 2nd and counted everything. Organizers didn't care my "3" was built on challenging 6600+ tees. All they cared about was age, short sighted IMO.

[Mudguard]

Your point about spin is interesting. I'm pretty sure the balata and Professional had similar spin rates to modern balls with wedges. Just nowhere near the distance or durability. So is the drop in driver spin rate (from 4000 ish to less than 2000) because of player technique or ball construction, bit of both?

[storm319]

Completely agree, my comment was pointing out how pointless and futile any rollback would be. BTW, I fully expect technology to advance to the point that most golf is played via simulation sometime in the future.

[storm319]

Jack is far from the typical 80 year old though not to mention the fact that he himself has stated that he should not be hitting the ball as far as he does at his age. If his comments were genuine, I would expect any rollback that does not impact his current distance would be a failure in his eyes.

[Pepperturbo]

The reason I still have some game at 70 is I been working out since my Football days. I hit driver 240+ because I am still strong but the driver design and ProV1 ball make the difference 70 years old. There are older guys on tour that hit the ball like I do, but nobody I know around my age hits the ball like I do nor are they low-mid single digit. I am a high spin hitter and still spin the ball a lot compared to most. The balata ball spun like crazy if I slightly mishit it, nothing like ProV1 today.

Fifteen years back in 2005 I was 55 and played 905-S 9.5 driver and Grafalloy Blue X shaft fully inserted and hit the old ProV1x 250+yds. I was a lot stronger then. Over 15yrs I lost maybe 10-15yds, that's because of the ball and driver design is helping to maintain distances and I am still in decent shape. I will put in 2hr work out later today and I play blades and a 2i that technically works against distance.

[DFS PFD]

So that is where we differ, I'd play wherever they want me to regardless of whether it was determined by age or handicap, this game is insanely hard and I need every advantage I can get within the confines of the rules. I do not care if they ask me to play from the 150 yard markers as my pride is irrelevant. I do not look forward to the days that someone has to ask me to stop playing from the tips for pace of play or scoring sake, you clearly still have the game. But I think your attitude is overly concerned with playing from a certain set of tee's for this reason rather than just focusing on playing the game.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

You remind me of one player who grumbled and harrumphed all the way to the winners circle at my club being cheered on by everyone for being the oldest single digit player in the club. Is your actual name Dan by any chance? Lol

That’s fine by me as long as they have enough simulators at my “old folks home” when I get so old I’d need to drive the cart up onto the greens.

Right, this is good data. The only issue is whether this is a cause or effect? Does hitting longer make your scores go down or are better players simply longer hitters?

One likely outcome of hitting shorter when you’re used to hitting longer is you’ll hit less greens. At least, statistically speaking. Perhaps iron technology will make up for drivers and balls being rolled back?