Why Aren't Vintage Clubs More Collectible/Valuable?

[jick]

I've been on a buying spree lately for mint condition forged irons. They can be had for dirt cheap, mostly under $100 for a full set. I buy them to play them of course.

But this got me thinking because I also have some awareness of a lot of other collectibles.

In toys, the ones from the 60's and 70's have collectible value because they were built sturdier. In guitars, the good ones with good wood are expensive. The same thing can be said with vintage cars which seem to be shooting up in value depending on racing history or pedigree.

Now vintage clubs are like guitars - they are made of good wood. The forged clubs are like the great cars - well built and good materials. But the common thing all these collectibles have is that they were made in the USA with love and passion.

Now here's the ironic part. In the Facebook pages for vintage club lovers, there are a couple of Japanese who don't speak a word of English but collect tons of vintage American-made clubs (Macgregors, Wilson). It also makes me remember the story of Scotty Cameron. In the late 80's/early 90's, he was aware of how the Japanese were collecting and gobbling up the original Ping Scottsdale Ansers, paying in the thousands for them. So Cameron built his name in Japan first - peddling putters are prices that were ridiculous then - but presenting himself as American made and premium. That helped establish his name and reputation then he transitioned to America.

On the flip side, the new generation of club ho's seem to worship Japanese boutique brands like Miura, Kyoei, Epon. But if we call a spade a spade, other than loft - there has really been no new technology in pure forged clubs (the ones without screws, tungsten, hot faces). Yet the Japan ones are held under a pedestal. But right under our noses, are American forged clubs with real pedigree and major championships - from Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead, Hogan, etc etc ...and they are gathering dust or selling for cheap, while the Japanese love collecting them.

The days of clubs forged in the USA are long gone and will never return. It is a bygone era. One of the last guys to win a major with clubs forged in the USA? That would be Tiger Woods with his Titleist prototype irons during the Tiger Slam as those were forged by Hoffman Foundry. So forged in the USA clubs are getting more and more scare - so why are they still in bargain bin prices?

Will people realize that these clubs are works of art and gold? Or is there really no interest and no chance of them ever gaining traction and suddenly shooting up in value?

I only used forged clubs as an example because I am no expert in persimmon but I am guessing the same analogy and query can be posed to that.

[justasgood]

ssshhhhhh.......

[Stephen8802]

Marketing ruined golf. These days, people who don't even know how to take a divot think they need a ball fitting or they will shoot 200.

I played with a guy in his 20s last week; nice swing, hit the ball a ton, shot a nice round. He made some comments about my irons--a split set with 4-6 Hogan Medallions and 7-wedge '85 Staffs--and was wondering how I could hit them as well as I did. So, on the last hole, I hit 7 iron onto the green, he hit his on the green, then handed him my 7 iron and told him to take a swing with it. I knocked it dead center looked at me and said "its so small, I was scared to hit it." I told him its just a golf club and if you put a good swing on it you hit a golf shot. People listen to what they are told, and the golf industry keeps telling them if they don't have new technology they can't play.

Now it's time for you to become a persimmon expert, which isn't hard because there is more than enough information on the back threads here to make anyone an expert. Forged irons on the sweet spot feel great, hit a 50's Mac on the screws and you are in heaven.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

With regard to irons, as Stephen8802 pointed out, a lot of golfers look at an old blade and think it's scary to hit.

There may even be a few who are put off by the groove rule; they don't want to buy old irons for a fear of not being able to use them in their club tournaments. I suspect this group of golfers is very small though.

Judging by the WRX community, a lot of golfers like to have new gear, though there are plenty of members here who still have an old set of irons that they take out occasionally, so may be there is more appreciation for the classics than we think.

Persimmons are a different issue. The fact is that it is harder to hit a persimmon driver than a modern 460cc bells-and-whistle mega-beast. Fun, yes, and very satisfying if done well, but certainly harder. That, I think, is why there is less interest in persimmon.

[RobotDoctor]

Certain classics can still command a decent price for the right collector. Supply and demand is the key. There are certain vintage models that are very sought after. If a person has a set of original in good to excellent condition unfinished MacGregor WW Special woods (1-4) then your looking at mid-ish 5 figures, between $20,000 and $35,000 would be my guess but wouldn't be surprised if a set like that goes for $50,000. Wood Brothers persimmon seems to be the rage currently.

 

[jick]

My perspective is not so much about how easy or difficult it is to hit but the craftsmanship, hand work, and build quality. I am speaking more about collectors or the blade market.

There are still people who buy those tiny Miura blades and pay a premium for it. Why not get a vintage made in the USA blade that has major championship pedigree that can be had for a fraction of the price?

[jick]

I am getting there! Maybe not an expert yet, but going to put persimmons back in play soon!

[jick]

Those are deep and rare collectibles. I am thinking something more along production models that were forged by Hoffman or Cornell Forge --- a lot were from the bygone era - Wilson Staffs, Macgregors, etc... they have really great build quality, and in some cases even genuine leather grips. Yet they can be had for a song now. Why don't collectors (not gamers) gobble these up? I think these are very much American-made classics just like vintage guitars, muscle cars, or old toys - all of which are rising in value among collectors. Maybe the best comment so far here is that "shhhhh..." Maybe it's just a matter of time before people will catch onto that ....or maybe it will never happen and we will still be getting vintage clubs with major championship pedigree for a song.

[LeftyMac]

jick,

I have a nice little collection of beautiful US forged irons and a few classic persimmons as well, almost all sourced out of the US and dragged back to Australia in my travels. Australia had some pretty high tariffs on golf clubs post WW2 and that meant not a lot of clubs from the late 40's, 50's and even 60's made in the US found there way here. On the upside there are some pretty nice clubs that were made locally that are rare based just on numbers. Which of course is the key to any collectable, supply and demand. My guess is that until there are a lot more people interested in classic club, there simply is too much supply (witness the stuff you see that people get a Goodwills for next to nothing) for the prices to climb. About 10 or so years ago a friend of mine got into hickory golf and pushed me to have a go. I grabbed enough clubs for a couple of sets and bought some really nice clubs that because they are left handed are very rare. Most I paid was $30 to $50 a club. These days any hickory, regardless of brand and condition, people want silly money for. They normally don't get it, but they THINK hickory is collectable so the set the price accordingly. Let's hope that they people who continue to buy the classic are those who want to play them, that way they'll stay affordable. If they become something people collect for the sake of making money we'll see prices jump.

[Jiggered]

As you say, Japanese blades are the in thing and a golfer turning up on the first tee with a set (or posting some pictures in the main WRX forums) will get their ego stroked with admiring oohs and aaahs, if they turned up with a set of classic blades all they'd get are some funny looks.

People have always wanted to be admired and to fit in, but more so now than ever what with all the social media stuff. The day it becomes cool and respectable to have a bag full of great classic clubs will be the day prices start to rise.

 

While I'm buying clubs I'm happy with this state of affairs, when I'm selling more clubs than buying then I'd be okay with prices rising.

[Soloman1]

Japanese quality is pretty darn good across the board. They're right on specs out of the box. The old US vintage clubs made for tour pros was not near the consistency or quality as the stuff sold to the public. You don't know what you're talking about.

[Used2PlayALot]

People actually use vintage guitars and cars, but no one uses vintage golf clubs.

You are not collecting vintage guitars, you are collecting vintage accordions.

No one wants them, no demand, and tons of basement estate sale supply. Worthless.

[justasgood]

I use vintage clubs very regularly. Persimmon drivers, Macgregor 1-PW blades, Wilson 8813 or Bullseye putter and real Tour 100 Balata golf balls.

 

 

[mocokid]

Yes, it's the woods (persimmon) that have the value, some irons maybe, but the persimmon- Yes. Again it depends on the supply and demand, just as the market should work.

[jick]

Best analogy so far. Thanks for enlightening me. Let vintage clubs continue to be bargain bin prices so we can enjoy this niche area of the game at less cost. I guess they will never be collectible.

[RobotDoctor]

I just sold these. These are Hoffman forgings, I believe. These are terrific irons but I can't justify having them sit and never be hit. I have my old gamer set so that is good enough for me.

[justasgood]

Wish it were me that bought those. Would have been nice to see em next to mine:

 

1-PW and Lob

[RobotDoctor]

They were listed here but I was not going to give them away. I asked a very, very fair price for them and received my bare minimum price. Problem is I lost money on them but they went to a terrific person, a collector of vintage equipment. I couldn't be happier where they went. When it comes to vintage equipment and something truly mint comes along it is best to snag the item up if a person is interested. Believe me, someone else will also be interested. Mint, never hit 30-33 year old irons is a very rare find.

[deejaid]

Another reason we need a BST in the Classic Golf subforum. I never look in the BST for classics.

[golfunderpar18]

I played with a mid 50’s m75w 4 wood and a persimmon wood brothers texan as well as Cleveland 588 blades last weekend. The game prior I used my Muirfield 20th’s, as well as another wood brothers texan and Fairway Wood.

 

no demand? Not true. No easy way to sell here on this site as classics would get lost with the modern postings . I sold one of my wood Brothers texans for $515 USD On eBay last month. I have a few other great persimmons I posted on another site and have guys offering to buy even though I don’t have them posted for sale. I’ve had offers in the 4 digits for some just last week. That’s far from worthless. eBay is really the only marketplace to sell vintage clubs.

there is demand for good equipment. The entry level stuff I agree is hard to sell.

[golfunderpar18]

Some are bargains but there are Definite collectibles. Golfwrx just doesn’t support classic and vintage buying and selling. Their focus are the more modern equipment which I get. Some of us know who bought this one recently. There are no modern titanium clubs fetching $2k for one club. This is a anomaly but quality clubs will always sell. Price, condition, scarcity, and current market conditions are the deciding factors. It onLy takes one buyer sometimes timing is everything.

[golfunderpar18]

But generally There are some great classic clubs can be Had cheaply. It’s no different to the more modern clubs, computers, tv’s etc....new technology comes in and the previous incarnations can be had cheaper. How much is an r7 TP Driver today? I have one, super deep face, titanium head, tour level speeder shaft. At the time it was ~$700. Now....lucky if I could get $100 for mine (it’s minty, has more traditional shape and I’d never sell mine lol) . Big Berthas were the rage....or Titleist 910’s @$400 are now $50. Older steel headed fairways and drivers are $10-20. It’s really no different. .

[Used2PlayALot]

Vintage guitars are viewed by some as better than modern equivalents.

Vintage cars are viewed by some as better than modern equivalents.

Vintage golf clubs are worse in every metric.

[golfunderpar18]

I disagree 110%. Are you saying all vintage guitars are better than modern equivalents? Same as all vintage cars? That’s what I’m reading?....but it’s not true. There are thousands of crappy vintage cars. Same as guitars. There are priceless Ferrari’s that sell for millions or rare fender strats. But there are Pintos and ford escorts that should be left in the junkyards.

how is a vintage Arnold Palmer designed by or Wilson 8802 worse in every metric than a Scotty Napa blade? Where did Scotty come up with his highly innovative putter design.....oh from that whacko karsten solheim who designed and patented his so highly unpopular and inferior ping putters.

[Used2PlayALot]

For starters, a putter should have an alignment line. 8802 is inferior

[RobotDoctor]

 

I know who it was and I am certain to see this one in person sometime in the near future. He wants to see a few of my classic MacGregors, including my latest M85W driver Dave Wood just restored.

I completely disagree. A great putter can align a putt with the face of the blade. The 8802 is no way inferior. Most golfers are simply not good enough to putt with a blade with very little forgiveness. I used to be able to putt with this style but know those days are in the past. Then again my current gamer has no alignment lines and I'll putt against anyone.

[Gsea]

LOL. I putt with an 8802 and think an alignment line are for mini golf. Thats probably one of the funniest things I have read on this forum.

[hollabachgt]

Its like your suggesting that alignment aids on the top of a putter is a new addition. More than 100 years ago putters were made with alignment aids.

I can't put with a putter that has a line on it, just does not work for my eye. So i'd say that any putter with an alignment line is inferior.

[RobotDoctor]

Yeah, Ben Crenshaw was handicapped as a putter because of his 8802.

[golfunderpar18]

I agree! Some comments here are so far off base. Absolutely crazy.