Lofts: Traditional vs Weak vs Strong

[EDT501]

The reality is that manufacturers know that the majority of the market (of which GolfWrx is NOT representative) will choose their irons based on which demo 6 iron they hit the furtherest on the simulator at a big-box store. I think this is part of the reason that we see the “loft-jacking” and distance-iron categories growing so quickly. On the other hand, I am not convinced this is entirely a bad thing. I have played with plenty of people, especially those with slower to moderate swing speeds who make irregular contact, who use these irons without issue. If these sets help them hit the ball further and enjoy the game more, why should I care? Based on my anecdotal observations, the average golfer - I’m talking about someone who never practices, but plays once or twice a month - is better off now than they were 15 years ago and is able to hit better iron/approach shots in the 120-200+ range. I think for that segment, this equipment can work.

 

For those of us who aren’t looking for more distance in their irons, there are still plenty of options available. I’m someone who plays super old-school lofts (50* PW), and looking at the offerings of the major OEMs, I see probably a dozen sets that I think could work provided I switch from a 3-PW to a 4-GW.

 

There are plenty of options to go around and just because something doesn’t fit me doesn’t mean I don’t think there is value in it for someone else.

[Titleist_PT23]

I love how 21-24-27-31-35-39-43-47 is somehow the "correct" or "traditional" loft in peoples' mind.  It's only traditional or normal if you started playing in the mid-to-late 90s.  It's "jacked" (2 degrees or so) vs. earlier sets (i.e. what everyone's hero Tiger is used to looking down at).  I still ask people if Tiger changed the numbers on his clubs to 4-iron through GW would anything be different?

 

I get why people don't like certain iron designs, and there are definitely tradeoffs.  But loft-for-loft with the same iron design there is so little change in ball flight regardless of number on the bottom or 1/2 difference shaft length.

 

I.e stop comparing a new 7-iron to and old 7-iron.  Compare it to an old 6-iron.  That's different than mixing in all the clubhead design differences that may make your shots/ballflight suboptional.

[LukeDonaldsTiger]

13 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

I love how 21-24-27-31-35-39-43-47 is somehow the "correct" or "traditional" loft in peoples' mind.  It's only traditional or normal if you started playing in the mid-to-late 90s.  It's "jacked" (2 degrees or so) vs. earlier sets (i.e. what everyone's hero Tiger is used to looking down at).  I still ask people if Tiger changed the numbers on his clubs to 4-iron through GW would anything be different?

 

I get why people don't like certain iron designs, and there are definitely tradeoffs.  But loft-for-loft with the same iron design there is so little change in ball flight regardless of number on the bottom or 1/2 difference shaft length.

 

I.e stop comparing a new 7-iron to and old 7-iron.  Compare it to an old 6-iron.  That's different than mixing in all the clubhead design differences that may make your shots/ballflight suboptional.

Don’t forget shaft length and lie angle, though. Everyone who’s used to a 47/48* PW, could just buy a modern 4-GW set, but with -1/2“ length adjustments and have the lie angles looked at. 
Vcog changes and speedslots, -foam and thin, flexing faces notwithstanding. 

[MelloYello]

2 hours ago, Exactice808 said:

You answered part of the questions.

 

The reduced loft, the harder it does get to hit the ball.  a 4iron is harder to hit than a PW.  Both by size of head to maintain swing weight but also the dynamic changes of loft.

Ok so the next point though, is who would benefit.  Well as I mentioned the stronger lofts gives a better potential of higher smash factor meaning ball speed.

 

Quick examples -

Track man PGA smash factors -

PW = 1.23 

9iron = 1.28

8iron = 1.32 

 

LPGA

PW - 1.23

9iron - 1.28

8iron - 1.35

 

Now as an example I would potentially assume the LPGA players lofts are slightly stronger than the PGA (Im guessing) Hence the 8 iron having slightly more efficiency.

 

Also if LOFTS matter to Smash factor, lets take the PGA lofts to smash

 

PW - 46* - 1.23

9iron - 42* - 1.28

8iron - 38* - 1.32

 

So with a strong lofted 9iron,  say at 38* in loft (rather than 42*),  This difference would be 1.28 smash vs 1.32 smash,  now apply a swing speed of 85mph.  

The difference of ball speed, is;

 

85mph x 1.28 = 108.8

85 X 1.32 = 112.2

 

thats potentially 4mph extra,  just on the smash factor efficiency with stronger lofts. Regardless of the number on the bottom but purely on the lofts.

 

Now add in a shaft that helps the player,  PGA player with a 42* 9iron in X100 vs a Amatuer with a 38* 9iron and a 65gram graphite.

 

You will get more distance going up the club numbers,  BUT again artificial based on the strengthen loft thats about it! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm specifically asking about strong-lofted player's irons that have the same heavy shaft as the traditionally-lofted player's iron. 

 

Who's hitting a z785 with an S300 higher than a Z-forged with an S300? What is it, maybe 1 in 100, guys with blades who legitimately hit them too high? 

 

I'm interested to hear from folks who went in and actually saw higher trajectories with i210, z785, AP2 and T100 varieties that aren't explainable through the selection of a lighter shaft.  

Edited October 1, 2020 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

46 minutes ago, agolf1 said:

I love how 21-24-27-31-35-39-43-47 is somehow the "correct"

 

I just don't know many golfers who are complaining about how they hit their player's irons too high...

 

...if anything, it seems it would help people to have more loft rather than less, the same way we suggest to do with bounce on wedges. 

 

 

[MelloYello]

1 hour ago, Talldog said:

 

They way things are going, they're going to have to come up with a new numbering system.

 

Ping clubs are marked: 9, W, U, S, & L.

 

Might as well be random lettering.  

 

That's still better than T300's with their 10-, 11- and 12-irons labeled P, W and W2. 

 

What kind of person has a club named after a tax form?

 

Am I taking crazy pills?!

[Titleist_PT23]

17 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

 

I just don't know many golfers who are complaining about how they hit their player's irons too high...

 

...if anything, it seems it would help people to have more loft rather than less, the same way we suggest to do with bounce on wedges. 

 

 

My 49 degree GW has more loft than your 47 PW.  Bet both are 35.5.

 

Most important thing with irons is a) the gaps work between irons and b) the gaps with first "wedge" (SW, LW or non-set GW) and non-iron (hybrid, fairway) work.  Anyone that complains about the labeling needs to get there head looked at.  Even the T400s.  Who cares what the label says.

 

This is a typical poser "hey look at me, I need a 47 degree PW" and that makes me better thread.

 

Your issue is clubhead design (real issue), not loft.

 

[blueonblack]

1 hour ago, Chuckie777 said:

Somewhat off the topic but related to trajectory....  I am generally a low ball hitter.  If I replace the weight in my Epic Flash 3wood from the standard 2gram to say a 14gram (the weight that is standard in the front of the Epic Flash sub zero), will that increase the trajectory or am I just asking for trouble with dispersion, etc?

That's almost verbatim from the instruction manual on my Srixon driver with the extra swingweights.

More weight will put more load on the shaft, and make it play a touch softer, and maybe launch a touch higher. But as long as you are in the correct flex, it shouldn't be too soft to affect directional stability. 2g to 14g is a lot. Is there an in-between weight? My driver has 3.

[Titleist_PT23]

54 minutes ago, LukeDonaldsTiger said:

Don’t forget shaft length and lie angle, though. Everyone who’s used to a 47/48* PW, could just buy a modern 4-GW set, but with -1/2“ length adjustments and have the lie angles looked at. 
Vcog changes and speedslots, -foam and thin, flexing faces notwithstanding. 

VCOG is a real issue.  I don't disagree head design is a big factor in what people like or how the ball flies.

 

But bending a 31-35-39 set to 33-37-41 doesn't change much.  The 33 will fly/launch between the 31 and 35.  Neither is particularly right or wrong or too high or too low.  It's all what you are used to looking at and the rest of your bag

[NRJyzr]

1 hour ago, gbartko said:

I think there is a lot of ego involved by the traditional loft folks. Just like those that go on and on about their 2 irons and blades. They are real men.

 

Interesting form of projection you've got there

[LowAndLeft32]

8 hours ago, bladehunter said:

And another one takes the path of most resistance.   Bravo.  
 

 

I don’t get it either.  Today’s modern iron with very high Vcog is actually harder to hit.  I don’t care what anyone says.  I have a mid 90s set of titleist blades I can hand yo I with a px 6.5 shaft and illl bet my life you hit the 6 iron higher than 99% of modern iron equivalents.  Why ? The center of gravity is so low on older irons it’s easy to get the ball in the air.    Modern irons are designed to hit  fat. Or at least very steeply.  It’s the only way to get the center of gravity to the equator of the ball.  You can draw a diagram out that will show this with a divot after the ball vs at or before the ball.  The oems are teaching people to hit it fat in my opinion.  

This is very interesting. Appreciate it and would agree based on what I’ve seen in limiting testing. @bladehunter would you happen to know the COG of the Nike VR II pro blades? Thanks 

[bladehunter]

3 minutes ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

This is very interesting. Appreciate it and would agree based on what I’ve seen in limiting testing. @bladehunter would you happen to know the COG of the Nike VR II pro blades? Thanks 

Maltby lists the VR pro at .816 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, gbartko said:

I think there is a lot of ego involved by the traditional loft folks. Just like those that go on and on about their 2 irons and blades. They are real men.

I see truly the opposite.  It’s the guy wanting to hit the 170 yard 7 iron thats 25 degrees that has the ego issue.  If that iron had a 4 on the bottom he’d feel worse about himself apparently.       In my experience t it’s that guy who always announces what he hit .... and then asks everyone else. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by bladehunter

[Titleist_PT23]

5 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

I see truly the opposite.  It’s the guy wanting to hit the 170 yard 7 iron thats 25 degrees that has the ego issue.  If that iron had a 4 on the bottom he’d feel worse about himself apparently.       In my experience t it’s that guy who always announces what he hit .... and then asks everyone else. 

It's no different than the "traditionalists" that bad mouth a strong lofted 7-iron.

 

For people that say loft is loft and it doesn't matter, they are just as concerned about people using clubs that are strong lofted.

[LowAndLeft32]

I guess at the end of the day the question is what club metrics including loft cog blade or cavity will translate into the best impact and golf Ball flight result? I can never seem to figure that question out. I wish I had the answer. I guess that is why I have an itch to always try to new clubs. 

[chippa13]

I just want my 170 club to go 170.

[Pepperturbo]

3 hours ago, chippa13 said:

Keep in mind that more and more people are replacing their long irons with hybrids.

That may be true for mid-hi caps but don't buy that nearly as much with better amateurs under 6 index, and age plays a role too.  Younger guys make changes like that a lot faster than 30+ skilled golfers.  I've seen 2 & 3 irons replaced by hybrids but most better players still carry 4i down. 

 

Guys like me can still smack long irons well, plus it's far more gratifying than a well struck graphite, hybrid.  Making a change because a person can't elevate the ball enough to land a green in an event, is understandable.  However, many of us are not making a living at golf so cuts are not a factor.  Switching out 3 and 4 irons for hybrids depends a great deal on skill level and game goals.  Have a good one.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Pepperturbo

[jvincent]

7 hours ago, MelloYello said:

 

Where did you go with the lofts on your z785 set?

 

Did you go all the way to traditional 21 - 24 - 27 - 31 - 35 - 39 - 43 - 47? 

I set the 4i at 22* and went in 4* increments from there.

 

Note that this is measured on my bending machine so my "22" may not be an actual 22. I did it based on carry distance of the 4i and went with the relative lofts from there.

Edited October 2, 2020 by jvincent

[chippa13]

29 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

That may be true for mid-hi caps but don't buy that nearly as much with better amateurs under 6 index, and age plays a role too.  Younger guys make changes like that a lot faster than 30+ skilled golfers.  I've seen 2 & 3 irons replaced by hybrids but most better players still carry 4i down. 

 

Guys like me can still smack long irons well, plus it's far more gratifying than a well struck graphite, hybrid.  Making a change because a person can't elevate the ball enough to land a green in an event, is understandable.  However, many of us are not making a living at golf so cuts are not a factor.  Switching out 3 and 4 irons for hybrids depends a great deal on skill level and game goals.  Have a good one.

Preaching to the choir, I love hitting my 4 iron.

[Pepperturbo]

2 hours ago, gbartko said:

I think there is a lot of ego involved by the traditional loft folks. Just like those that go on and on about their 2 irons and blades. They are real men.

 

The definition of a real man has NOTHING to do with golf or any sport.  Ego exists in darn near every sport, including golf and chest; it drives competitors.  At 70yrs old I still get a charge out of stomping a competitor.  The difference is guys that play good golf don't boast on the tee box about anything, they listen to what others boast.

 

The real question is maybe, which is healthier?  That guy that tells everyone he just hit 8i 170yds and says nothing about it's t-400 5-6i loft, or the guy hits MB 6i with weak 31* into the same green and says nothing.  Who's more balanced?

 

You bet I like talking about my 620 irons, they feel amazing.  Even talk about my 17' 2i.  But what gives me the biggest charge is hitting a sweet long iron into a green, stopping the ball and making a putt for birdie.  What I didn't do was say anything about the iron I just hit or the birdie. 

 

 

 

 

[chippa13]

In most sports, the truly excellent don't feel the need to tell anyone about it.

[Titleist_PT23]

2 minutes ago, chippa13 said:

In most sports, the truly excellent don't feel the need to tell anyone about it.

True true.

 

I love that people bash other players for "announcing" that they hit and "8-iron" whatever.  But these same people need to "announce" on an internet forum that they play a 47 degree PW and degrade anyone that dare swing a club with a stronger loft than that.  Hilarious.

[A.Princey]

I don't understand this thread, do they not still make traditional loft MB's and blades(and CB's for that matter), or has that well run dry? It would seem to me the OP is the exact, target audience for MPF ratings, all things considered. But hey, I too like a low and outward COG.

Edited October 2, 2020 by A.Princey

[Mitchell]

I always was taught that for irons and wedges, on fuller swings, good players tend to take loft off club via delivery and poor players do the opposite. 🤔

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, gbartko said:

oh, i KNOW that is the case - lol.  but i think it really does go both ways, not for everyone, but definitely some.

Yep. I’d agree there.  It certainly can go both ways too. 

[NRJyzr]

12 hours ago, gbartko said:

oh, i KNOW that is the case - lol.  but i think it really does go both ways, not for everyone, but definitely some.

I'm not seeing it, but maybe that's just me.

 

Speaking for myself, my only sense of ego is knowing that I've selected one of the golf gods' Chosen Sets of irons, Golden Ram Tour Grinds.  😁

[MelloYello]

12 hours ago, jvincent said:

I set the 4i at 22* and went in 4* increments from there.

 

Note that this is measured on my bending machine so my "22" may not be an actual 22. I did it based on carry distance of the 4i and went with the relative lofts from there.

 

What were you playing prior to the z785 set?

 

Or better yet, when you recall back to making the switch from traditional lofts to these stronger lofts, were you not bothered by it? Were you already a high-ball hitter? Maybe you never played traditional lofts? What's your take there? 

[MelloYello]

12 hours ago, A.Princey said:

I don't understand this thread, do they not still make traditional loft MB's and blades(and CB's for that matter), or has that well run dry? It would seem to me the OP is the exact, target audience for MPF ratings, all things considered. But hey, I too like a low and outward COG.

 

The thread is by me and for me. I wondering why I'm seeing all these player's CBs with stronger lofts. I'm wondering how these sets work and if there's something I don't understand. 

 

When you've got a GI iron the stronger lofts are compensated for by a lower CG, a more flexible shaft and often an extra 1/2" or so of length. But if we take a normal player's CB with a high CG, a heavy shaft and a traditional length...who exactly benefits by giving away loft? 

 

I can't wrap my head around that and so I'm repeatedly asking who has gone to an i210, AP2 or z785 and actually found they like the trajectories. I bought a set of z785 this week to possibly replace my 716 CB but I've found the CBs are actually easily to launch. For instance, the z785 mid-irons are about 3^o stronger (for no apparent reason). 

 

Lotta people trying to hijack the thread. Obviously my question is practical and nothing to do with what some are talking about on pg 3. 

Edited October 2, 2020 by MelloYello

[MelloYello]

13 hours ago, LowAndLeft32 said:

I guess at the end of the day the question is what club metrics including loft cog blade or cavity will translate into the best impact and golf Ball flight result? I can never seem to figure that question out. I wish I had the answer. I guess that is why I have an itch to always try to new clubs. 

 

Yes, I'm definitely going to start paying more attention to VCOG. 

[Nard_S]

I've always played 1990's  lofts. PW @48*, 5i @28* or therein about. Play blades and yeah full set.  So yeah that guy, lol.

 

VCOG is a deceptive stat. You can have two completely different designs with different weight distributions and still have same VCOG. One can take a 1/2" piece of plywood and bricks and come up with same COG as 2"x10" piece of board. So the number matters but only in context to how the mass is arranged. That context also involves the other planes (horizontal & depth) and how CG in 3D, in even theoretical space (GI/CB's) relates to to the center of axis of the shaft.