Hybrid Lie Angles Too Flat for Upright Iron Players?

[DLev45]

I'm 6'2" and was fit for irons at +0.5", +1.5 up. This puts my 5-iron at 38.5" and 62.5* lie angle.

 

Going by the general progression of +0.5" = -0.5* lie angle, a 39.5" 4-hybrid would fit me at a lie angle of 61.5*. Yet most of the 4-hybrids now come at a lie angle of around 58*.

 

Examples:

Ping G410: 58* (can ONLY be adjusted flat, not upright)

Callaway Apex 19: 58* (not adjustable)

Titleist TS2: 58.5* (can go up to 2* upright)

Taylormade SIM Max: 60.5* (not adjustable)

Has anyone else had the issue of actually needing hybrids that are more upright with the trend to push them more flat? I admit confused about the general consensus that hybrid lie angles are too upright and the trend for hybrids that adjust flatter. 

 

When I hit a 39.5"/58* hybrid, I'm off the toe all day long, which is exactly what you would expect when it's 3 degrees flat to my iron progression. 

 

The SIM is obviously well more upright than the others at 60.5*, and the Titleist can get to that same angle, so those may be a little better for me. 

 

What was your solution?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by DLev45

[dmbrill719]

I play similar iron specs as you, but haven't found an issue with the hybrid...mainly b/c I'm looking for one that I don't miss left.

 

Have you done the vertical line on the ball test to see how you're marking it on the face?

 

And the Apex hybrid can be custom ordered upright...I believe 1 or 2 up.  

[DLev45]

Just now, dmbrill719 said:

I play similar iron specs as you, but haven't found an issue with the hybrid...mainly b/c I'm looking for one that I don't miss left.

 

Have you done the vertical line on the ball test to see how you're marking it on the face?

 

And the Apex hybrid can be custom ordered upright...I believe 1 or 2 up.  

 

I haven't done a vertical line test, but of the couple of 58* 4-hybrids I have tried, all have been off of grass, and I am unmistakably hitting them off the toe consistently. There are repeat grass impressions in a quarter-sized mark, toe-side.

 

I actually do get different result from the strike location. Most are push cuts, but I can have the gear effect take hold and hit a low snap-hook, too. But while the flight changes, the strike location doesn't.  

[Fairway14]

3 minutes ago, DLev45 said:

 

I haven't done a vertical line test, but of the couple of 58* 4-hybrids I have tried, all have been off of grass, and I am unmistakably hitting them off the toe consistently. There are repeat grass impressions in a quarter-sized mark, toe-side.

 

I actually do get different result from the strike location. Most are push cuts, but I can have the gear effect take hold and hit a low snap-hook, too. But while the flight changes, the strike location doesn't.  

 

Try standing a bit closer to the ball at address. I expect this will help center your hybrid heads impact to the ball.

[dlygrisse]

Congrats!  You are the first person in the history of the internet that has complained about hybrids being too flat. 🤣

[DLev45]

4 minutes ago, Fairway14 said:

 

Try standing a bit closer to the ball at address. I expect this will help center your hybrid heads impact to the ball.

 

That's going to make the handle higher and exacerbate the issue on a club that's already flat. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by DLev45

[Fairway14]

7 minutes ago, DLev45 said:

 

That's going to make the handle higher and exacerbate the issue on a club that's already flat. 

 

Well, for my own game if I stand too far from the ball at address toe strikes tend to emerge. If I stand closer to the ball at address this promotes better quality center impact.

I understand what I've written above has nothing to do with lie angle, but my guess is that if you do stand closer to the ball at address this will influence your swing , likely resulting in more consistent center impact contact.

[DLev45]

36 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

Congrats!  You are the first person in the history of the internet that has complained about hybrids being too flat. 🤣

 

I know, right?

 

But the lie angle doesn't make sense to me.

 

Looking at Ping as an example, in particular, because that's what all of my clubs are.

 

Stock Specs: Club / Length / Lie

i210 3-iron / 39" / 60*

G410 4-hybrid / 39.75" / 58*  - only added 0.75", but went 2 full degrees flatter

G410 3-hybrid / 40.25" / 57.5* - added 0.5", went 0.5" flatter

G410 2-hybrid / 40.75" / 57* - added 0.5", went 0.5" flatter

G410 5-wood / 42.5 / 57* - added 1.75", no lie change

G410 3-wood / 43" / 56.5* - added 0.5", went 0.5"

 

If they kept the same standard progression at 0.5" = 0.5 lie change, it would be this:

 

Club / Length / Lie

i210 3-iron / 39" / 60* (same)

G410 4-hybrid / 39.75" / 59.25* (1.25* upright from stock)

G410 3-hybrid / 40.25" / 58.75* (1.25* upright from stock)

g410 2-hybrid / 40.75" / 58.25* (1.25* upright)

G410 5-wood / 42.5 / 56.5* (0.5* flat from stock)

G410 3-wood / 43" / 56* (0.5* flat from stock)

 

Look how much flatter the stock hybrids are that the rest of the progression! The stock 4-hybrid is 0.75" longer than the stock 3-iron, but 2 full degrees flatter.  The stock 5-wood is 1.75 INCHES longer than the stock 2-hybrid, and the SAME lie angle. 

 

The hybrids are super flat relative to the irons and woods. And the adjustable hosel can't even go upright, only even more flat. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by DLev45

[Z1ggy16]

1 hour ago, DLev45 said:

I'm 6'2" and was fit for irons at +0.5", +1.5 up. This puts my 5-iron at 38.5" and 62.5* lie angle.

 

Going by the general progression of +0.5" = -0.5* lie angle, a 39.5" 4-hybrid would fit me at a lie angle of 61.5*. Yet most of the 4-hybrids now come at a lie angle of around 58*.

 

Examples:

Ping G410: 58* (can ONLY be adjusted flat, not upright)

Callaway Apex 19: 58* (not adjustable)

Titleist TS2: 58.5* (can go up to 2* upright)

Taylormade SIM Max: 60.5* (not adjustable)

Has anyone else had the issue of actually needing hybrids that are more upright with the trend to push them more flat? I admit confused about the general consensus that hybrid lie angles are too upright and the trend for hybrids that adjust flatter. 

 

When I hit a 39.5"/58* hybrid, I'm off the toe all day long, which is exactly what you would expect when it's 3 degrees flat to my iron progression. 

 

The SIM is obviously well more upright than the others at 60.5*, and the Titleist can get to that same angle, so those may be a little better for me. 

 

What was your solution?

 

 

 

 

I just had this same thought the other day. I play 1* upright, so going along the same lines as you, I should be playing a 39.5'' 4h at 60.5*, yet my 818 comes stock at 58.5. I was having a really hard time not cutting the ball with it and everything was very kind of pushy and weak. Put it in the most upright setting (60.5* lie) and boom... ball starts right on the line I want.

 

I think it's a little bit of a OEM over reaction to the whole "hybrids hook and aren't for better players" so now they've made them all very flat. Most golfers cut or slice the ball... having a 58.5* 4h is not going to help them play better and might even get them into bad habits.

 

And for people who miiiiight call me out or whatever, take a look at Rory's club build sheet from 2018. One of the top players in the world isn't playing crazy flat lies.

[DLev45]

16 minutes ago, Z1ggy16 said:

I just had this same thought the other day. I play 1* upright, so going along the same lines as you, I should be playing a 39.5'' 4h at 60.5*, yet my 818 comes stock at 58.5. I was having a really hard time not cutting the ball with it and everything was very kind of pushy and weak. Put it in the most upright setting (60.5* lie) and boom... ball starts right on the line I want.

 

I think it's a little bit of a OEM over reaction to the whole "hybrids hook and aren't for better players" so now they've made them all very flat. Most golfers cut or slice the ball... having a 58.5* 4h is not going to help them play better and might even get them into bad habits.

 

And for people who miiiiight call me out or whatever, take a look at Rory's club build sheet from 2018. One of the top players in the world isn't playing crazy flat lies.

 

Yeah, look at my post above yours comparing the stock progression of the Ping i210 irons to G410 hybrids to G410 Fairways. The hybrids are already WAY flat relative to the irons and woods. And the adjustable hosel can only go EVEN FLATTER.

 

That's a surprising spec sheet, too, since Rory is well under 6 feet tall.

Edited October 16, 2020 by DLev45

[tgoodspe1991]

I have this same problem and the flatness of hybrids is what actually leads to the left miss for me. Too flat, miss off toe with a square face, gear effect sends the ball off to the left. Additionally, the flatness of the club causes me to set up with my hands lower than normal to try to get the club looking correct at address, which leads to a flatter and more draw-biased swing.

 

There's a video by Mark Crossfield in which a Titleist Tour fitter actually says they flatten clubs to promote a draw for players or make clubs upright to promote a fade. Which make sense to me given how that will effect shaft angle at address and, thus, swing plane.

[DLev45]

36 minutes ago, tgoodspe1991 said:

I have this same problem and the flatness of hybrids is what actually leads to the left miss for me. Too flat, miss off toe with a square face, gear effect sends the ball off to the left. Additionally, the flatness of the club causes me to set up with my hands lower than normal to try to get the club looking correct at address, which leads to a flatter and more draw-biased swing.

 

There's a video by Mark Crossfield in which a Titleist Tour fitter actually says they flatten clubs to promote a draw for players or make clubs upright to promote a fade. Which make sense to me given how that will effect shaft angle at address and, thus, swing plane.

Did you find a more upright solution?

 

I have spent the last couple hours looking at the major OEM specs and it appears that the conventional wisdom that hybrids are upright hook machines isn’t accurate. 
 

They might be hook machines due to other factors such as ball position, shaft weight/flexibility, offset, and bulge/roll, but the current generation hybrid lie angles are flatter to length than irons and woods almost across the board. 

 

 

[ChipNRun]

Check out the Tour Edge CBX and CBX.119 hybrids. These are billed by the TE reps as being "left-proof".

 

Also, if you can lengthen the shaft without losing control, this would make the lie more upright.

Edited October 17, 2020 by ChipNRun

[tgoodspe1991]

11 hours ago, DLev45 said:

Did you find a more upright solution?

 

I have spent the last couple hours looking at the major OEM specs and it appears that the conventional wisdom that hybrids are upright hook machines isn’t accurate. 
 

They might be hook machines due to other factors such as ball position, shaft weight/flexibility, offset, and bulge/roll, but the current generation hybrid lie angles are flatter to length than irons and woods almost across the board. 

 

 

I haven’t found anything. The closest thing is the Titleist hybrids that would end up 1* flat from what I need. It’s close, but not quite there. Everything else comes in significantly flatter.

 

I agree that it’s manufacturers counteracting the “hybrids always go left” sentiment. It doesn’t actually make any sense that hybrids come in at the same lie angles or flatter than fairway woods that are 2-3 inches longer, or that they are 3* or more flatter from the irons they are replacing.

[ChipNRun]

19 hours ago, DLev45 said:

Going by the general progression of +0.5" = -0.5* lie angle, a 39.5" 4-hybrid would fit me at a lie angle of 61.5*. Yet most of the 4-hybrids now come at a lie angle of around 58*.

 

Here's a possibility from Mizuno, maybe with a longer shaft?

 

 

Lengthening the shaft makes a club set more upright.

[evoviiiyou]

3 minutes ago, ChipNRun said:

 

Here's a possibility from Mizuno, maybe with a longer shaft?

 

 

Lengthening the shaft makes a club set more upright.

I have a couple of these CLKs in the bag currently and with opposite if the OP at almost corresponding iron length and that shaft length reduction (-1/2") really flatness these out beyond flat.  So playing the the 16* and 19* both at the "upright" setting and love the results.  The nice thing about many of the hybrids today including the CLK is the adjustable loft sleeve to dial in lie.  Pretty nice tech that provides whats needed to better suit the eye at address and provide the confidence at set up.

[Hack Daddy]

Every time I say equipment, ESPECIALLY hybrids, woods, and drivers are too flat for mass consumption - some of the traditionalists try to run me off the board. Lmao. 

 

I'm 6'3" long legs, short arms. +2" and 2-3° upright. 

 

Any hybrid with a longer hossel will work. Think Adams (they were meant to be bent), or any glue in style (example rogue). Find a fitter that has a hybrid/wood bender. If no one is local to you, Justin at Billy Bobs Golf will do it. 

 

I'm telling you, equipment is too flat these days. We're not the soft swinging midgets of yesteryear...

[GrumpyCat]

21 hours ago, DLev45 said:

 

I know, right?

 

But the lie angle doesn't make sense to me.

 

Looking at Ping as an example, in particular, because that's what all of my clubs are.

 

Stock Specs: Club / Length / Lie

i210 3-iron / 39" / 60*

G410 4-hybrid / 39.75" / 58*  - only added 0.75", but went 2 full degrees flatter

G410 3-hybrid / 40.25" / 57.5* - added 0.5", went 0.5" flatter

G410 2-hybrid / 40.75" / 57* - added 0.5", went 0.5" flatter

G410 5-wood / 42.5 / 57* - added 1.75", no lie change

G410 3-wood / 43" / 56.5* - added 0.5", went 0.5"

 

If they kept the same standard progression at 0.5" = 0.5 lie change, it would be this:

 

Club / Length / Lie

i210 3-iron / 39" / 60* (same)

G410 4-hybrid / 39.75" / 59.25* (1.25* upright from stock)

G410 3-hybrid / 40.25" / 58.75* (1.25* upright from stock)

g410 2-hybrid / 40.75" / 58.25* (1.25* upright)

G410 5-wood / 42.5 / 56.5* (0.5* flat from stock)

G410 3-wood / 43" / 56* (0.5* flat from stock)

 

Look how much flatter the stock hybrids are that the rest of the progression! The stock 4-hybrid is 0.75" longer than the stock 3-iron, but 2 full degrees flatter.  The stock 5-wood is 1.75 INCHES longer than the stock 2-hybrid, and the SAME lie angle. 

 

The hybrids are super flat relative to the irons and woods. And the adjustable hosel can't even go upright, only even more flat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For Ping's G410 woods and hybrids, the published "Lie Angle" spec is actually an average of the five loft positions visibly printed on the adapter sleeve.  Ping's calculation of this "Lie Angle" (average lie) spec excludes the 3 hidden Flat positions (F, F-, F+) that are not printed on the adapter sleeve.

 

The G410 3-wood's published "Lie Angle" is 56.5°, but that 56.5 is actually the average of the 5 visible lofts on the adapter ( O , Big+ , Small+ , Small– , Big– ).  When the adapter sleeve is placed in the O position, the lie angle is 57.5°:

Ping G410 3-Wood
Setting	Loft	loft +/-	Lie	lie +/-
O	14.5	--	57.5	--
Big +	16.0	+1.5	56.0	-1.5
Small +	15.5	+1	56.5	-1
Small –	13.5	-1	56.5	-1
Big –	13.0	-1.5	56.0	-1.5
F	14.5	0	54.5	-3
F –	13.5	-1	55.5	-2
F +	15.5	+1	55.5	-2
"Lie Angle" (Average Lie)			56.5

 

Same for 3-Hybrid:

Ping G410 3-Hybrid
Setting	Loft	loft +/-	Lie	lie +/-
O	19.0	--	58.5	--
Big +	20.5	+1.5	57.0	-1.5
Small +	20.0	+1	57.5	-1
Small –	18.0	-1	57.5	-1
Big –	17.5	-1.5	57.0	-1.5
F	19.0	0	55.5	-3
F –	18.0	-1	56.5	-2
F +	20.0	+1	56.5	-2
"Lie Angle" (Average Lie)			57.5

 

Secondly, whether we like it or not, the various OEMs set the stock lengths of their hybrids anywhere from 1- to 1.5-inches longer than their equivalently-lofted irons.

For example, the Ping i210's 3-iron has 19° loft and 60° lie at 39" length.  The equivalently-lofted hybrid would be the G410 3H at 19° loft and 58.5° lie (in the standard O adapter setting) . . .  but its stock length is 40.25"!  If the i210 3-iron were to be extended 1.25-inches (which would make it a bit longer than a standard 1-iron) to the same 40.25" playing length as the G410 3-Hybrid, the i210 3-iron would also need to be flattened somewhere between 1° and 1.5° to accommodate the extra 1.25" length.  So this hypothetical i210 3-iron at 40.25" playing length would likely have a lie of about 59° or 58.5°... which is, coincidentally, the stock O lie of the G410 3-Hybrid.

 

Alternatively, if we kept the lengths (nearly) constant, we would compare the i210 3-iron at 39.0" length with either the G410 6-Hybrid at 38.75" or the 5-Hybrid at 39.25" length.  In the standard O adapter setting, the G410 5-Hybrid's lie is 59.5° and the 6-Hybrid's lie is 60.0°... which is, coincidentally, the same 60° lie as the i210's 3-iron.

 

If/when OEMs produced hybrids at 1" to 1.5" longer but keep the same lie angle as their similarly-lofted irons (e.g. 19° G410 3H -vs- 19° i210 3i), those hybrids end up feeling like hook machines.  With the additional 1" to 1.5" in length, the lie angle of a longer club needs to be flatter.

 

DLev45, if you play your G410 3H at the stock length of 40.25" but the rest of your i210 irons are 0.5" long, then you may want to try lengthening your 3H by 0.5"... in which case, the lie will play a bit more upright.  The +0.5" might also help move your toe-strikes toward the middle of the clubface.

 

Nevertheless, even if you lengthened your G410 3-H, it will probably still feel uncomfortably flat for you (in comparison to your i210 3-iron) because your i210 irons are both 0.5" long and bent 1.5° upright. 

 

I'm not sure if this would work, but perhaps a Left-Handed G410 Hybrid adapter sleeve would provide the opposite lie angles of a Right-Handed adapter (i.e. more upright lies instead of flatter) ?

[Awainer1]

Yup I’ve been saying this for a while now. I do the standard progression 1 to 1 and that lands me at a 58.5 degree 3 wood. I play my irons 2 degrees up from Titleist standard without the extra flatness in the longer irons. Most hybrids play around 58 so what am I supposed to play my hybrids the same length as my 3 wood?  I found a tour issue hybrid with a 60.5 degree lie but not many like it. 

[DLev45]

1 hour ago, GrumpyCat said:

 

For Ping's G410 woods and hybrids, the published "Lie Angle" spec is actually an average of the five loft positions visibly printed on the adapter sleeve.  Ping's calculation of this "Lie Angle" (average lie) spec excludes the 3 hidden Flat positions (F, F-, F+) that are not printed on the adapter sleeve.

 

The G410 3-wood's published "Lie Angle" is 56.5°, but that 56.5 is actually the average of the 5 visible lofts on the adapter ( O , Big+ , Small+ , Small– , Big– ).  When the adapter sleeve is placed in the O position, the lie angle is 57.5°:

 

Ping G410 3-Wood
Setting	Loft	loft +/-	Lie	lie +/-
O	14.5	--	57.5	--
Big +	16.0	+1.5	56.0	-1.5
Small +	15.5	+1	56.5	-1
Small –	13.5	-1	56.5	-1
Big –	13.0	-1.5	56.0	-1.5
F	14.5	0	54.5	-3
F –	13.5	-1	55.5	-2
F +	15.5	+1	55.5	-2
"Lie Angle" (Average Lie)			56.5

 

Same for 3-Hybrid:

 

Ping G410 3-Hybrid
Setting	Loft	loft +/-	Lie	lie +/-
O	19.0	--	58.5	--
Big +	20.5	+1.5	57.0	-1.5
Small +	20.0	+1	57.5	-1
Small –	18.0	-1	57.5	-1
Big –	17.5	-1.5	57.0	-1.5
F	19.0	0	55.5	-3
F –	18.0	-1	56.5	-2
F +	20.0	+1	56.5	-2
"Lie Angle" (Average Lie)			57.5

 

Secondly, whether we like it or not, the various OEMs set the stock lengths of their hybrids anywhere from 1- to 1.5-inches longer than their equivalently-lofted irons.

For example, the Ping i210's 3-iron has 19° loft and 60° lie at 39" length.  The equivalently-lofted hybrid would be the G410 3H at 19° loft and 58.5° lie (in the standard O adapter setting) . . .  but its stock length is 40.25"!  If the i210 3-iron were to be extended 1.25-inches (which would make it a bit longer than a standard 1-iron) to the same 40.25" playing length as the G410 3-Hybrid, the i210 3-iron would also need to be flattened somewhere between 1° and 1.5° to accommodate the extra 1.25" length.  So this hypothetical i210 3-iron at 40.25" playing length would likely have a lie of about 59° or 58.5°... which is, coincidentally, the stock O lie of the G410 3-Hybrid.

 

Alternatively, if we kept the lengths (nearly) constant, we would compare the i210 3-iron at 39.0" length with either the G410 6-Hybrid at 38.75" or the 5-Hybrid at 39.25" length.  In the standard O adapter setting, the G410 5-Hybrid's lie is 59.5° and the 6-Hybrid's lie is 60.0°... which is, coincidentally, the same 60° lie as the i210's 3-iron.

 

If/when OEMs produced hybrids at 1" to 1.5" longer but keep the same lie angle as their similarly-lofted irons (e.g. 19° G410 3H -vs- 19° i210 3i), those hybrids end up feeling like hook machines.  With the additional 1" to 1.5" in length, the lie angle of a longer club needs to be flatter.

 

DLev45, if you play your G410 3H at the stock length of 40.25" but the rest of your i210 irons are 0.5" long, then you may want to try lengthening your 3H by 0.5"... in which case, the lie will play a bit more upright.  The +0.5" might also help move your toe-strikes toward the middle of the clubface.

 

Nevertheless, even if you lengthened your G410 3-H, it will probably still feel uncomfortably flat for you (in comparison to your i210 3-iron) because your i210 irons are both 0.5" long and bent 1.5° upright. 

 

I'm not sure if this would work, but perhaps a Left-Handed G410 Hybrid adapter sleeve would provide the opposite lie angles of a Right-Handed adapter (i.e. more upright lies instead of flatter) ?

The average lie issue does make them closer to the irons. But the 3H/3W is still only a 1* lie difference at 2.75” difference in length. 
 

I would be very interested to know if a lefty adapter would reverse the flat settings to more upright. That would be ideal. 

[SvenS3]

Did someone test the LH Adapter on a RH Club?

 

Very interested in knowing if the flat setting will make the club more upright.

[tgoodspe1991]

On 10/16/2020 at 4:13 PM, DLev45 said:

I'm 6'2" and was fit for irons at +0.5", +1.5 up. This puts my 5-iron at 38.5" and 62.5* lie angle.

 

Going by the general progression of +0.5" = -0.5* lie angle, a 39.5" 4-hybrid would fit me at a lie angle of 61.5*. Yet most of the 4-hybrids now come at a lie angle of around 58*.

 

Examples:

Ping G410: 58* (can ONLY be adjusted flat, not upright)

Callaway Apex 19: 58* (not adjustable)

Titleist TS2: 58.5* (can go up to 2* upright)

Taylormade SIM Max: 60.5* (not adjustable)

Has anyone else had the issue of actually needing hybrids that are more upright with the trend to push them more flat? I admit confused about the general consensus that hybrid lie angles are too upright and the trend for hybrids that adjust flatter. 

 

When I hit a 39.5"/58* hybrid, I'm off the toe all day long, which is exactly what you would expect when it's 3 degrees flat to my iron progression. 

 

The SIM is obviously well more upright than the others at 60.5*, and the Titleist can get to that same angle, so those may be a little better for me. 

 

What was your solution?

 

 

 

 

Have you looked at the new Mizuno JPX 921 Fli-Hi hybrids? They have me intrigued. Can shaft them with steel shafts, they are more normal lengths, and have a hosel that’s designed to be bent and you can easily bend them significantly upright to match irons sets (their stock angles are already more upright to begin with too).

 

Their 22.5* hybrid is 38.5” and 60* lie standard.

 

Also, they are only $125 club!

Edited April 28, 2021 by tgoodspe1991

[BREWMASTER95060]

I HAVE READ ANYONE OVER 6' = 17%

OF THE POPULATION.
edit:
just dudes not chicks.

Edited April 28, 2021 by BREWMASTER95060

[mgoblue83]

Side note:

The whole idea of a longer club plays more upright and shorter club plays more flat is 100% golfer dependent and is something that should be tested not assumed. It's obviously true with big differences in length but if you handed a random player 2 wedges with the same loft/lie and one was a half inch longer there is absolutely no guarantee that the dynamic lie would change. Most people adjust their setup and swing to different lengths without giving it much thought. Personally when I swing a longer wedge I stand a little taller and a little farther from the ball which completely negates any change in lie angle. 

 

 

I agree with @DLev45 about woods and hybrids being too flat. I have an 818H2 that I'd love to play but I can't hit anything except toe shot hooks while taking toe down divots. I had to put it on the shelf for fear of putting a giant sky mark on top of the toe. I replaced it with a 2i (udi) @ 61 degrees lie that performs great.