Another rules question

[dre72]

Playing in a money game yesterday, we come to the 18th hole with a lake on the right side of the fairway.  I hit my drive and push it a little right and we all see a splash when it lands.  I go up to the drop zone and play from there.   As we are walking down we find my original ball in the middle of the fairway.  No one is questioning if it is my original ball, my markings, the number ball I was playing etc...  Right where it looks like it landed the lake is very shallow and you can see some rocks just below the surface so it must have gotten a fortunate ricochet.  

 

Here is the question, is that ball in play? or do I have to play the provisional?

[nsxguy]

23 minutes ago, dre72 said:

Playing in a money game yesterday, we come to the 18th hole with a lake on the right side of the fairway.  I hit my drive and push it a little right and we all see a splash when it lands.  I go up to the drop zone and play from there.   As we are walking down we find my original ball in the middle of the fairway.  No one is questioning if it is my original ball, my markings, the number ball I was playing etc...  Right where it looks like it landed the lake is very shallow and you can see some rocks just below the surface so it must have gotten a fortunate ricochet.  

 

Here is the question, is that ball in play? or do I have to play the provisional?

 

I'll try this one.

 

There IS no "provisional".

 

Since you already took your penalty and played on, the original is no longer playable. The ball played from the drop area is in play lying 3.

 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by nsxguy

[Sawgrass]

The answer to this question comes down to whether it was legitimate to assume virtual certainty that the ball had stayed in the water. 
 

That is a subjective call.  If it was legitimate, you must play the ball dropped in the drop area and the original ball must be ignored.  If it wasn’t legitimate, you get a 2 stroke penalty for having hit (a wrong ball) from the drop zone and must play the original.  
 

(The fact that the original did not stay in the water does not in itself mean that it wasn’t virtually certain to have done so.)

[naval2006]

A dropped ball is always the ball in play. 

[rogolf]

33 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

The answer to this question comes down to whether it was legitimate to assume virtual certainty that the ball had stayed in the water. 
 

That is a subjective call.  If it was legitimate, you must play the ball dropped in the drop area and the original ball must be ignored.  If it wasn’t legitimate, you get a 2 stroke penalty for having hit (a wrong ball) from the drop zone and must play the original.  
 

(The fact that the original did not stay in the water does not in itself mean that it wasn’t virtually certain to have done so.)

I would suggest a different outcome.  He didn't play a wrong ball, he played a substituted ball and from a wrong place.  Since he did not know the location of the original ball when he substituted a ball, the only Rule that can apply is stroke and distance.  He incurs a two stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place, with a serious breach, and must correct that error by playing from the correct place - the teeing ground.  He would be playing his fifth stroke from the teeing ground - first stroke from teeing ground, 1 ps for lost ball, 2 ps for playing from wrong place.

[Sawgrass]

9 minutes ago, rogolf said:

I would suggest a different outcome.  He didn't play a wrong ball, he played a substituted ball and from a wrong place.  Since he did not know the location of the original ball when he substituted a ball, the only Rule that can apply is stroke and distance.  He incurs a two stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place, with a serious breach, and must correct that error by playing from the correct place - the teeing ground.  He would be playing his fifth stroke from the teeing ground - first stroke from teeing ground, 1 ps for lost ball, 2 ps for playing from wrong place.

You’re right, thanks.

[nsxguy]

Gentlemen,

 

In your opinions, would seeing a ball fly over a margin of a watery PA and see a noticeable splash NOT constitute KVC.

 

I'm thinking at least 95% of the time I've seen that there was no ball popping out of the water.

 

[Shilgy]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

Gentlemen,

 

In your opinions, would seeing a ball fly over a margin of a watery PA and see a noticeable splash NOT constitute KVC.

 

I'm thinking at least 95% of the time I've seen that there was no ball popping out of the water.

 

Agree, KVC is 95%...not foolproof. Finding the ball outside the hazard is up to a 5% possibility. The dropped ball from the water is in play and lies 3.

[Sawgrass]

2 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Gentlemen,

 

In your opinions, would seeing a ball fly over a margin of a watery PA and see a noticeable splash NOT constitute KVC.

 

I'm thinking at least 95% of the time I've seen that there was no ball popping out of the water.

 

IMO the angle at which the ball entered the water is relevant. We’ve all seen low-hit balls skip over and out of water.

 

But assuming a steep angle, I’d say you have a fair chance at a legit KVC.  But I’d have to be there to be sure.

[nsxguy]

2 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

IMO the angle at which the ball entered the water is relevant. We’ve all seen low-hit balls skip over and out of water.

 

But assuming a steep angle, I’d say you have a fair chance at a legit KVC.  But I’d have to be there to be sure.

 

Yes, we're getting into minutia now.

 

Low flights and skipping balls are usually very noticeable. And there has to be land a relatively short distance past where the ball initially hits. Doesn't sound like that here.

 

OP didn't describe the flight. It also sounds like he didn't know the hole very well because he said when they got there they saw the water was shallow and there were rocks there. Also sounds the ball didn't hit all that far from land.

 

Still KVC ?

 

Or should they be expected to examine the area left of the water to see if it DID bounce out ?

 

 

 

 

[rogolf]

15 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Gentlemen,

 

In your opinions, would seeing a ball fly over a margin of a watery PA and see a noticeable splash NOT constitute KVC.

 

I'm thinking at least 95% of the time I've seen that there was no ball popping out of the water.

 

A quote from a previous ruling made by the ruling bodies, "It is important that all readily accessible information be considered because, for example, the mere fact that a ball has splashed in a water hazard would not always provide the "knowledge" that the ball is in the water hazard, as there are instances when a ball may skip out of, and come to rest outside, the hazard."

[nsxguy]

16 minutes ago, rogolf said:

A quote from a previous ruling made by the ruling bodies, "It is important that all readily accessible information be considered because, for example, the mere fact that a ball has splashed in a water hazard would not always provide the "knowledge" that the ball is in the water hazard, as there are instances when a ball may skip out of, and come to rest outside, the hazard."

 

Thanks. Apparently an old (pre-2019) ruling.

 

IMO, this ruling shows how these discussions can get so long and/or complicated.

 

[rogolf]

54 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Thanks. Apparently an old (pre-2019) ruling.

 

IMO, this ruling shows how these discussions can get so long and/or complicated.

 

Yes, from previous Decision 26-1/1.  The mapping summary (old Rules/Decisions to new Rules) shows the outcome of that Decision has not changed and is now part of the definition of "known or virtually certain".

[dre72]

I think I am more confused now than before I asked, LOL.  To clarify, it was not a low line drive type of ball flight so there wasn't a chance of the ball skipping off the water.  

 

If I understand correctly, I should have walked up to where I thought the ball landed and searched that area.  If the ball wasn't there, I would have walked back to the drop zone and played from there?  Is that correct?  If so, that seems a little redundant to hold up play.  

 

This is one of those situations I need to have a good understanding of with all of the amateur tournaments I play in.

Edited January 19, 2021 by dre72

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, naval2006 said:

A dropped ball is always the ball in play. 

 

That depends whether the dropped ball is played or not.

[rogolf]

13 minutes ago, dre72 said:

I think I am more confused now than before I asked, LOL.  To clarify, it was not a low line drive type of ball flight so there wasn't a chance of the ball skipping off the water.  

 

If I understand correctly, I should have walked up to where I thought the ball landed and searched that area.  If the ball wasn't there, I would have walked back to the drop zone and played from there?  Is that correct?  If so, that seems a little redundant to hold up play.  

 

THis is one of those situations I have a good understanding of with all of the amateur tournaments I play in.

It's one of the harder situations that a referee gets into.  All I'm saying is that in order to proceed under the penalty area Rule (Rule 17), it must be known or virtually certain that the original ball, not found, is in the penalty area.  Whether or not you're holding up play does not factor into the "known or virtually certain" deliberations.

[Mr. Bean]

17 minutes ago, dre72 said:

I think I am more confused now than before I asked, LOL.  To clarify, it was not a low line drive type of ball flight so there wasn't a chance of the ball skipping off the water.  

 

If I understand correctly, I should have walked up to where I thought the ball landed and searched that area.  If the ball wasn't there, I would have walked back to the drop zone and played from there?  Is that correct?  If so, that seems a little redundant to hold up play.  

 

THis is one of those situations I have a good understanding of with all of the amateur tournaments I play in.

 

What you should have done depends on what you honestly think had happened.

 

If you felt that the ball definitively (in your opinion) ended up in the water you did what you were supposed to do. BUT if you had ANY doubt whether that ball just MIGHT have bounced off from the surface of the water and ended up onto the fairway you should have checked it.

 

It all comes to what others have already said, is it Known or Virtually Certain that your ball is in the water. All you need to have is 95% certainty...

[rogolf]

8 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What you should have done depends on what you honestly think had happened.

 

If you felt that the ball definitively (in your opinion) ended up in the water you did what you were supposed to do. BUT if you had ANY doubt whether that ball just MIGHT have bounced off from the surface of the water and ended up onto the fairway you should have checked it.

 

It all comes to what others have already said, is it Known or Virtually Certain that your ball is in the water. All you need to have is 95% certainty...

Putting that another way, your decision has to be correct 19 times out of 20.

[Sawgrass]

31 minutes ago, dre72 said:

I think I am more confused now than before I asked, LOL.  To clarify, it was not a low line drive type of ball flight so there wasn't a chance of the ball skipping off the water.  

 

If I understand correctly, I should have walked up to where I thought the ball landed and searched that area.  If the ball wasn't there, I would have walked back to the drop zone and played from there?  Is that correct?  If so, that seems a little redundant to hold up play.  

 

This is one of those situations I need to have a good understanding of with all of the amateur tournaments I play in.

If you are confused as to what to do in a stroke play tournament, ask a ref or if one can’t quickly arrive announce your intention to play two balls. Finish the hole with both balls and then be sure to ask the committee to sort it out — even if your score is the same with each of the two balls. Do so before you hit the first. 

 

So, announce, drop in the Drop Zone and hit AND go back to the tee and hit another in this particular case.

[antip]

7 hours ago, dre72 said:

Playing in a money game yesterday, we come to the 18th hole with a lake on the right side of the fairway.  I hit my drive and push it a little right and we all see a splash when it lands.  I go up to the drop zone and play from there.   As we are walking down we find my original ball in the middle of the fairway.  No one is questioning if it is my original ball, my markings, the number ball I was playing etc...  Right where it looks like it landed the lake is very shallow and you can see some rocks just below the surface so it must have gotten a fortunate ricochet.  

 

Here is the question, is that ball in play? or do I have to play the provisional?

Fresh reaction to your original post. 

If you did not say it was a provisional before playing, it was not a provisional. And even if you did say it was a provisional, a provisional was not permitted under the rules unless a) you believed there was a chance the ball was lost outside of the penalty area or b) there was a local rule in place permitting a provisional to be played for a ball that is (KVC) in the penalty area (MLR B-3).

So, highly likely, you did not play a provisional. Which means the substituted ball you dropped and played was the ball in play and the original ball was no longer in play and is now defined as a wrong ball (see definition of "in play").

If you had KVC the original ball had been lost in the penalty area (when you played from the DZ) - an issue that has been given a thorough discussion in other posts - then that ball played from the DZ is in play and lying three (two strokes plus the 17.1 penalty). If you did not have KVC you have played from a wrong place and additional penalties and procedures are required - as discussed elsewhere.

The complete rules answers can be complicated.

[Augster]

First, that is not a provisional ball. 

 

Second, after seeing a ball splash into water coming in from height, I’m virtually certain you have virtual certainty. That ball isn’t coming out of the PA 1 time out of 20. Probably not 1/100 or 1/1000. You just found the “1”. The ball correctly played from the drop area is the ball in play lying 3. Pick up the original ball and play on. 
 

Next time, search the fairway with your eyes before you drop. 🙂

[naval2006]

6 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

That depends whether the dropped ball is played or not.

Doesn’t a ball just dropped become the ball in play save when you play a provisional?

[nsxguy]

43 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

Doesn’t a ball just dropped become the ball in play save when you play a provisional?

 

There are actions that can be corrected if the next shot hasn't been played yet.

 

I'm betting this is one of them.

[LeoLeo99]

53 minutes ago, naval2006 said:

Doesn’t a ball just dropped become the ball in play save when you play a provisional?

Not until you make a stroke at it.  

[LeoLeo99]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

First, that is not a provisional ball. 

 

Second, after seeing a ball splash into water coming in from height, I’m virtually certain you have virtual certainty. That ball isn’t coming out of the PA 1 time out of 20. Probably not 1/100 or 1/1000. You just found the “1”. The ball correctly played from the drop area is the ball in play lying 3. Pick up the original ball and play on. 
 

Next time, search the fairway with your eyes before you drop. 🙂

 

100%  This isn't that complicated of a situation.  OP confused some of you by writing "provisional".  Once you take relief and play on, that's that.  There is no, I'll take relief from the penalty area and if if I find my ball along the way I can cancel that shot and play the original ball. I think that is where the OP is a little confused.  

[Sawgrass]

36 minutes ago, LeoLeo99 said:

Not until you make a stroke at it.  

It’s in play after being dropped, but you can lift it and correct an incorrect drop prior to making a stroke at it, and thereby take it back out of play via lifting.

[antip]

8 minutes ago, Sawgrass said:

It’s in play after being dropped, but you can lift it and correct an incorrect drop prior to making a stroke at it, and thereby take it back out of play via lifting.

Precisely, ball is in play when replaced, dropped or placed with intent to be in play (14.4).

 

But, of course, a ball dropped correctly as a provisional ball (not the OP scenario) is not THE ball in play, it is only in play provisionally and only becomes BIP if the 18.3c(2) triggers are met. (For reasons I don't understand, that language of in play provisionally is not used in the 2019 rules, but I think it is helpful.)

[Imp]

18 hours ago, rogolf said:

It's one of the harder situations that a referee gets into.  All I'm saying is that in order to proceed under the penalty area Rule (Rule 17), it must be known or virtually certain that the original ball, not found, is in the penalty area.  Whether or not you're holding up play does not factor into the "known or virtually certain" deliberations.

I would argue that it does. “All reasonably available information” includes all information the player knows and all other information he or she can get with reasonable effort and without unreasonable delay."  - Part of the KVC definition.

The op knows the course and in some cases, going around a body of water to look for it after taking a shot off a rock would/could be considered unreasonable effort, as it's beyond all expectations for it to have ricocheted out after seeing the splash and having all witness the splash.


 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Imp

[Imp]

18 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

What you should have done depends on what you honestly think had happened.

 

If you felt that the ball definitively (in your opinion) ended up in the water you did what you were supposed to do. BUT if you had ANY doubt whether that ball just MIGHT have bounced off from the surface of the water and ended up onto the fairway you should have checked it.

 

It all comes to what others have already said, is it Known or Virtually Certain that your ball is in the water. All you need to have is 95% certainty...

I think it's a bit disingenuous to always lean on the 95% here, ignoring the 1st half of the rule:

"There is conclusive evidence that the event in question happened to the player’s ball, such as when the player or other witnesses saw it happen, or

Although there is a very small degree of doubt, all reasonably available information shows that it is at least 95% likely that the event in question happened."

The rule is written with an OR, not an AND after the 1st part. Meaning, if everyone agrees it's in the water, take a drop and move on ... you don't even need the 95% KVC as you pretty much agree it's in the water, you've met the 1st test and that's all that's needed. Tough luck, you're hitting three, while your ball is sitting pretty in the fairway.  If you didn't have the witnesses ("wasn't looking, didn't see") then you can move to the 2nd part, being the 95% KVC.  If both lines had to be considered on every question of KVC, there would be an AND in place of the OR.

If there is no doubt that it made a splash in the water, and the witnesses (you and the people you're playing with) saw it splash, and there's no dissenters, "Hey, maybe it came out?" using all reasonably available information, then: it's in the water. I think it would be unreasonable to assume it's not and look, and also create an unreasonable delay to say "oh, gee it may had bounced out in that 1:1000 shot, so we have to go look." I know quite a few courses where a ball will be hidden from view at the drop area.

 

--kC

Edited January 20, 2021 by Imp

[naval2006]

12 hours ago, Sawgrass said:

It’s in play after being dropped, but you can lift it and correct an incorrect drop prior to making a stroke at it, and thereby take it back out of play via lifting.

But once you've dropped the ball IT is the ball in play even if you have to redrop because the ball got closer to the hole after bouncing, or back to the penalty area, etc.  The ball the OP labels provisional is not so.  

 

Sorry mate. My mistake.  I didn’t want to ask a question but to make an affirmative statement. My English is getting more and more rusty. 

Edited January 20, 2021 by naval2006