When a junior transitions to adult clubs what is the preferred club type?

[CamasGolf]

I'm curious to hear from the forum about the type of club heads  a junior should use when moving from US kid or Flynn clubs onto an adult clubs.

 

This question is not about should you or should you not spend money to buy juniors adult clubs while they're still growing.... (And yes money is a factor but I'm simply focusing on the type of club).

 

One school of thought is to go with a more bladed club to get the junior golfer used to hitting it out of the center. (For an example and just using TaylorMade the MBs or the p 7 MC's). My understanding is the issue with this is the game might be become more difficult initially but would lead to longer term benefits.

 

Versus getting a more game improvement type of club that might make the game easier as a transition earlier but might impact them more later. Again looking at TaylorMade this could be the p770snor the p790s.

 

And I only use TaylorMade just as an example because all the club brands have their different versions of blade, players irons, players distance, to game improvement.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

[b.helts]

How long is a piece of string?

 

There is no right answer. Get them something they’ll be excited about and will keep them wanting to play. 

[MB19]

1 hour ago, CamasGolf said:

I'm curious to hear from the forum about the type of club heads  a junior should use when moving from US kid or Flynn clubs onto an adult clubs.

 

This question is not about should you or should you not spend money to buy juniors adult clubs while they're still growing.... (And yes money is a factor but I'm simply focusing on the type of club).

 

One school of thought is to go with a more bladed club to get the junior golfer used to hitting it out of the center. (For an example and just using TaylorMade the MBs or the p 7 MC's). My understanding is the issue with this is the game might be become more difficult initially but would lead to longer term benefits.

 

Versus getting a more game improvement type of club that might make the game easier as a transition earlier but might impact them more later. Again looking at TaylorMade this could be the p770snor the p790s.

 

And I only use TaylorMade just as an example because all the club brands have their different versions of blade, players irons, players distance, to game improvement.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

I feel like the more I learn, the less I know regarding this topic.

 

My daughter went from a set of 54" Flynn Velocity (series 2) irons and wedges  to Titleist 712 CB Forged  irons with Tensei Red 50g shafts/Ping Glide Forged Wedges with 230 ULT Lite shafts and it was a mixed bag.  She shot her lowest score four times with this setup (non-tournament), hurt her wrist, and then couldn't swing the irons with as much authority anymore.  The spin she got from the adult irons and wedges was night and day from the Flynn set, but I decided to get her into a USKG TS-60 set eventually.  She is hitting the irons a club farther than the Titleist, although she has increased her length with some swing and strength improvements since then.  

 

The heads on the Titleist irons are heavier, as are the shafts--10g in the shaft and in the head if I had to guess.  Her swing with the USKG TS set looks more fluid now, and club speed is faster, but I did just yank the 52/56/60 out and I put the Pings back in.  I don't think the Titleist will ever make it back into the bag, though.  I have a feeling my daughter will need a more forgiving iron when it comes time to rotate the TS irons out of the bag.  It's too bad, because those CBs sure are pretty... and the feel when you flush it is great, of course.  But putting my 57"/85 lb daughter into D4 weight irons (not sure how much lighter the ladies shaft made them, but they were around 380g)--that was just a little too heavy for now... but only a little.

 

We will definitely be looking at TM, Titleist, Ping and Cobra options next year when she moves back into adult irons.  She plays Speedback woods, irons and hybrid and we've been impressed with them.  I was impressed enough to snag a Speedzone 7H this week to replace her USKG TS 6i.  We'll see how that goes, but Cobra has earned a fan in me.

[heavy_hitter]

The "Use a Blade" to learn approach is rubbish IMO.  Grab a set of GI or SGI to help them.  Make the game easier, not harder.  Hitting the center is hitting the center no matter what set you get.  Putting them in a PI is more of an ego thing than anything else.

[mrshinsa]

We went with GI for his first adult clubs at age 11.  He went out and shot his personal best, his very first outing.

 

We are now replacing it with players distance irons at age 13.  

 

 

 

I'm confident this progression is suitable for most juniors.  

 

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

They should use the head that fits their ability.  If they can consistently hit the center of the face then PI will help them in their development of shot making ability and creativity.  If they struggle with ball striking generally then they will struggle even more with a harder to hit club and should use a GI or even SGI.

[heavy_hitter]

3 hours ago, ConcernedBoutCOVID said:

They should use the head that fits their ability.  If they can consistently hit the center of the face then PI will help them in their development of shot making ability and creativity.  If they struggle with ball striking generally then they will struggle even more with a harder to hit club and should use a GI or even SGI.

 

I firmly disagree.  My kid had players irons.  He consistently made center of the face contact.  He hit his 7i 143 yards with the players iron.  The distance he hit his PI's held him back.  7i with SGI went 159 yds with higher apex and better decent angle.

 

If the kid is long enough, go players irons.  The notion a PI will make you a better player is nonsense.

Edited April 22, 2021 by heavy_hitter

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

13 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

I firmly disagree.  My kid had players irons.  He consistently made center of the face contact.  He hit his 7i 143 yards with the players iron.  The distance he hit his PI's held him back.  7i with SGI went 159 yds with higher apex and better decent angle.

 

If the kid is long enough, go players irons.  The notion a PI will make you a better player is nonsense.

So you get a 1x boost in yardage at the expense of developing shot-shaping and developing feel (which is important for better players)

 

For same loft you should not see a 16yd difference between Player vs Game Improvement.  I would even argue a better player will not see that much of a difference overall in yardage or consistency between the two clubs.

[eddiebigeddie]

When my son started playing I had a little kids set for him (5-8 ish).  Then from ages (8/9-11/12) he used a set of the Cobra kids clubs for ages 9-12.  At age 12/13 he switched to a set of Taylormade Speedblades in stiff flex (85g steel shafts).  He played those for his 7th & 8th grade years of school.  He just turned 14 back in February and we got him a newer set of clubs over Christmas; Mizuno Hot Metal Combo set (5-7 Hot Metal), (8-Pw Hot Metal Pro) and the GW in Hot Metal all with Recoil 95 F4 (stiff).  The biggest difference/problem for him now is his growth & weight jumped a lot over the winter so we are now looking at getting another set of same clubs but with heavier (115-120g) steel shafts after a fitting last weekend. 

 

I say it depends on your kid and the growth (physical) and also (game wise).  I got the clubs (GI/Players distance) that I thought would "Help" my son play well and also enjoy the game of golf.  There's a few kids on his high school team that are playing "Players" irons, that really have no reason to be playing them, but thats for those parents to decide. 

[brentm08]

18 minutes ago, eddiebigeddie said:

When my son started playing I had a little kids set for him (5-8 ish).  Then from ages (8/9-11/12) he used a set of the Cobra kids clubs for ages 9-12.  At age 12/13 he switched to a set of Taylormade Speedblades in stiff flex (85g steel shafts).  He played those for his 7th & 8th grade years of school.  He just turned 14 back in February and we got him a newer set of clubs over Christmas; Mizuno Hot Metal Combo set (5-7 Hot Metal), (8-Pw Hot Metal Pro) and the GW in Hot Metal all with Recoil 95 F4 (stiff).  The biggest difference/problem for him now is his growth & weight jumped a lot over the winter so we are now looking at getting another set of same clubs but with heavier (115-120g) steel shafts after a fitting last weekend. 

 

I say it depends on your kid and the growth (physical) and also (game wise).  I got the clubs (GI/Players distance) that I thought would "Help" my son play well and also enjoy the game of golf.  There's a few kids on his high school team that are playing "Players" irons, that really have no reason to be playing them, but thats for those parents to decide. 

It is crazy trying to keep kids who grow and can play at a high level in the right equipment. I have a 14 year old who is getting to the end of his set of irons right now. Everything he tries he hates it even if the results are good. He likes the set he has been in for about 15 months because they are light weight. Even when we have tried something 10 grams heavier in the shaft he says it doesn't feel like my irons i have already. He has no future as a club ho. Good luck with your son and watching them play. it has been really enjoyable for me to spend time with my son doing something we both enjoy. 

[heavy_hitter]

1 hour ago, ConcernedBoutCOVID said:

So you get a 1x boost in yardage at the expense of developing shot-shaping and developing feel (which is important for better players)

 

For same loft you should not see a 16yd difference between Player vs Game Improvement.  I would even argue a better player will not see that much of a difference overall in yardage or consistency between the two clubs.

It does not hurt the development of shot shaping or feel.  That statement is complete hogwash.  

 

Your second statement is also partly false.  Technology in a GI and a SGI will give you higher ball speeds that also Apex higher.  The loft of the club means nothing.  You are not going to see a GI or SGI with the same loft as a PI, I don't think.  The engineers have to bring the loft of a GI and SGI down or the club will balloon.

 

In regards to a better player, if they have a swing speed in the 100's I will buy that argument.  If not I am selling it all day long.

[eddiebigeddie]

Just now, brentm08 said:

It is crazy trying to keep kids who grow and can play at a high level in the right equipment. I have a 14 year old who is getting to the end of his set of irons right now. Everything he tries he hates it even if the results are good. He likes the set he has been in for about 15 months because they are light weight. Even when we have tried something 10 grams heavier in the shaft he says it doesn't feel like my irons i have already. He has no future as a club ho. Good luck with your son and watching them play. it has been really enjoyable for me to spend time with my son doing something we both enjoy. 

I know exactly what you mean.  The "upgrade" set of irons we bought him for Christmas, I thought would be around for the next 2-3 yrs (9th-11th grades) and then he'd get the big new set for his senior year.  Nope, the little turd had a big growth spurt and is almost my size (heigth) now.  Realistically though since he hit his growth so quick, he shouldn't (fingers crossed) grow much more in heigth and the shaft we're looking at should stay for all of his high school career starting this fall.

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

3 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

It does not hurt the development of shot shaping or feel.  That statement is complete hogwash.  

 

Your second statement is also partly false.  Technology in a GI and a SGI will give you higher ball speeds that also Apex higher.  The loft of the club means nothing.  You are not going to see a GI or SGI with the same loft as a PI, I don't think.  The engineers have to bring the loft of a GI and SGI down or the club will balloon.

 

In regards to a better player, if they have a swing speed in the 100's I will buy that argument.  If not I am selling it all day long.

it's not hogwash; you cannot shape a shot with a SGI; it's still hard with GI; I doubt most players using those clubs even try - which is how you end up developing the skill in the first place

 

it depends on the speed generated by the player - sufficient speed generates plenty of loft, irrespective of clubhead type

 

it does not require ss in the 100s

[brentm08]

3 minutes ago, eddiebigeddie said:

I know exactly what you mean.  The "upgrade" set of irons we bought him for Christmas, I thought would be around for the next 2-3 yrs (9th-11th grades) and then he'd get the big new set for his senior year.  Nope, the little turd had a big growth spurt and is almost my size (heigth) now.  Realistically though since he hit his growth so quick, he shouldn't (fingers crossed) grow much more in heigth and the shaft we're looking at should stay for all of his high school career starting this fall.

Mine is in a set of Maltby's we built together with a ust dhi iron shaft that ends up being like 60 grams after trimming....regular flex. He loves them. Hits them high and a good distance....he struggles in the wind because the flight. In Ohio we get a fair amount of wind during the golf season in the fall. As long as he enjoys them I guess we keep going with them until we find the right shaft for him when he maybe gets a little stronger. He is about 103 mph consistently with the driver and for the life of me I can't figure out how he hits his irons so well when they say r flex ,but might be senior flex in reality. His tempo is really good and soft transition so I guess that is how he does it.  

 

Have a great week. 

[heavy_hitter]

8 minutes ago, ConcernedBoutCOVID said:

it's not hogwash; you cannot shape a shot with a SGI; it's still hard with GI; I doubt most players using those clubs even try - which is how you end up developing the skill in the first place

 

it depends on the speed generated by the player - sufficient speed generates plenty of loft, irrespective of clubhead type

 

it does not require ss in the 100s

 

I will tell you that your statement is complete nonsense!!

[eddiebigeddie]

@brentm08Thats good for him.  I know a lot of it has to do with varying manufacturer's "flex" etc.  My son is between 101-104 with driver (trackman confirmed) and uses a Tensei Orange regular flex in his Mizuno ST190, a 70g stiff in his 3 wood, regular flex in his hybrid, has 95g stiff Recoils in his irons for 6 rds so far this year, but his fitting last Saturday was recommended he go to Project X Lz 6.0 shafts (120g) which really tightened his dispersion both left/right & front/back.  Its funny how things are like that.

 

Even I play a little mix like that.  I'm in stiff flex driver shafts (but on the stouter side), stiff woods, x-stiff irons, and softer in the wedges....so just really have to try & see how things work for him.

[BloctonGolf11]

I hesitated to enter this thread as it is filled with mines but here it goes.

 

Background on my boy. 11 years old, above average height and strength. His swing mechanics are decent but has serious mental blocks with his game. 

 

Last year we transitioned him to adult heads. We did Cobra AMP Forged players heads, not blades, but also not a GI iron. He did okay with them and I do think they helped him with feedback and understanding how to hit an iron properly. This year we transitioned him to Cobra Speedzone F-Max for the lighter weight as he was having control issues. These are classified as GI but without crazy lofts and we have seen better iron play with the switch quickly. I think it mainly depends on the kid; however, I think there are issues at both spectrums. I don't think you should put your kid in blades by any stretch (since lets be honest the number of people in the world who should be playing blades is really small and most of them are playing for straight ego purposes) but I also don't think putting a kid in super lofted SGIs is a great idea either. There is a happy middle ground occupied by GI's and the new "Players Distance Irons" category that offer kids a lot of forgiveness and distance help without going the extreme SGI route. Just my belief and the belief of my son's coach as well. 

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

15 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

I will tell you that your statement is complete nonsense!!

false

[BloctonGolf11]

@heavy_hitter

@ConcernedBoutCOVID

[heavy_hitter]

39 minutes ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

@heavy_hitter

@ConcernedBoutCOVID

 

Here is the thing, and you know me well.  I have seen kids moving the ball left to right and right to left with SGI.  In fact, one kid won the high school state championship this year.  In fact, kids that are in the top 100 of their class.  CTGolf errrr  Concerned's statement is 100% inaccurate.

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

24 minutes ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

Here is the thing, and you know me well.  I have seen kids moving the ball left to right and right to left with SGI.  In fact, one kid won the high school state championship this year.  In fact, kids that are in the top 100 of their class.  CTGolf errrr  Concerned's statement is 100% inaccurate.

no reasonable person should put much faith in your, or anyone else's, anecdotes

 

why don't almost all LPGA Tour Pros use Super Game Improvement irons?  their swing speeds are mostly below 100mph

[wildcatden]

When my junior moves on from his TS57's, we plan to look at combo sets such as Ben Hogan PTx Pro (5-7)/Icon (8-PW) set.   Otherwise, we'll find something on eBay.  He'll be about 11.5 years old when that happens. 

[heavy_hitter]

1 hour ago, ConcernedBoutCOVID said:

no reasonable person should put much faith in your, or anyone else's, anecdotes

 

why don't almost all LPGA Tour Pros use Super Game Improvement irons?  their swing speeds are mostly below 100mph

Hey Chief, errrr  CTGolf who has already been banned...  LPGA generally aren't playing a 6800 yd course with relatively fast greens where they have difficulty of stopping the ball on.  This is why most of them are sitting there with multiple hybrids in the bag.  They are also only using 5i-pW and the longer irons split into a GI set.  These women also have the luxury of affording steel fiber shafts that can help ball flight.  You look at these women and there are A LOT using distance enhancing GI irons.  Today's players generally don't shape the ball much at all.  You ever listen to the announcers on TV basically say that today's players are boring.

 

As I said, and will continue to stand by my statement...  you are wrong in your analysis from top to bottom.  A SGI can be moved left to right and right to left.  There is no reason to put a kid transitioning into Adult Clubs into players irons.

Edited April 22, 2021 by heavy_hitter

[BloctonGolf11]

1 hour ago, heavy_hitter said:

 

Here is the thing, and you know me well.  I have seen kids moving the ball left to right and right to left with SGI.  In fact, one kid won the high school state championship this year.  In fact, kids that are in the top 100 of their class.  CTGolf errrr  Concerned's statement is 100% inaccurate.

Oh no doubt, the idea that you can't move them at all is foolish, I have friends who hit SGI and can move the ball VERY LEFT TO RIGHT if you know what I mean. However, it is more difficult to shot shape with them but I don't like SGI for other reasons beyond that. 

[killer21]

Ha ha, going through this right now fingers crossed.  My daughter turned 12 this year and I put senior shafts in her driver and fwy woods to good results from Ladies shafts but something still didn't look right in her ball striking with her Flynn irons. Shaft Length of the Flynn irons is good but ball striking didn't look great this spring.  She hit my old Ap1's with the old AD65i graphite senior iron shafts 2* flat and her swing looked like a million bucks in the net (we are in lock down again).  Soooo just ordered a mid sized adult iron 6-SW for her and as many on here know,  money appears to be no object for her golf gear whether we can afford it or not.  Despite jumping the gun on this once before, my fingers and toes are crossed they work this time.🤞 Yes, I have been down this road once before and tried to do the right thing going back to Flynn clubs but she grew this time for real 🙏.

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

heavy_hitter: "Hogwash, 100%, nonsense"

 

It's possible to have a debate without resorting to insults, going to extremes and making absolute statements.  

 

The OP asked about switching from USK/Flynn to adult heads, so he's not talking about playing 6800 yard courses, and maybe not even the 6400 LPGA plays from.  And most kids that age aren't hitting long irons very often.

 

I also reference LPGA Tour Pros because they are a pretty good comparison to the average amateur and developing junior golfer - similar in swing speed (mid to high 90s) and in distances played.  They are mainly using Player's Irons (with only a few exceptions) - go take a look at LPGA WITB photos.

 

Tour Pros (both PGA and LPGA) are shaping shots - we all see it all the time with shot tracer on TV.  I also know Korn Ferry Tour players and see them practice regularly - they can and do shape it both directions, high/low, etc.  It's a useful skill to learn - not impossible, but much harder to do with SGI.

 

[heavy_hitter]

7 minutes ago, ConcernedBoutCOVID said:

- not impossible, but much harder to do with SGI.

 

Thanks!!

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

I feel bad - I should probably clarify

 

I was giving advice as to what I thought the best approach would be for stepping up from kids to adult clubs.  I stated that if a player can hand a Player's Iron, should go for it - lots of benefits.

 

But there should be no shame in playing a Super Game Improvement Iron, even with a 110mph swing speed.  Some players need the forgiveness a SGI provides.

 

 

[kcap]

I love this thread because we just went through this.  IMO every iron set for a good players is compromise and you just need to find the right mix.

 

My son hits Apex 19 - those would count as player distance irons i guess,  the move up  would be Apex pro, MB or the Mizuno blades.

 

We have gone through 3 fittings as we tried to find the right club head for my son.

 

The issue for him with current irons was the lower spin number, btw his SS on a trackman is around 100 so tournament SS is probably 95ish.  He hated hitting the perfect 7iron to the middle only to see it roll out to the back. 

 

He can work the ball and shape shots with the Apex.  He never does it in tournaments, unless he is in trouble.

 

Every player club he hit had higher spin rate, launched higher but he was giving up 10yd -12yd in distance. HIs dispersion on the Mizuno blades was sick, but he just did not hit them far enough.   For him, the upgrade would mean a club length in distance but lower dispersion.  I think the psychological difference when you are 165yd from the green and you take out a 6I vs a 7I is huge - thus we kept him in the Apex 19s but..

 

His fitter made them weaker, if you look at the loft of apex and apex pro it is about 3.5% for a 8I.  He weakened them by 50% of the difference in some instances.

 

We did get some more spin, did not give him huge distances and he can shape the ball (but never does)

 

The minute he gets to 105 or higher we are switching to the Mizuno blades for (6I-PW)

 

[heavy_hitter]

20 hours ago, ConcernedBoutCOVID said:

I feel bad - I should probably clarify

 

I was giving advice as to what I thought the best approach would be for stepping up from kids to adult clubs.  I stated that if a player can hand a Player's Iron, should go for it - lots of benefits.

 

But there should be no shame in playing a Super Game Improvement Iron, even with a 110mph swing speed.  Some players need the forgiveness a SGI provides.

 

 

 

Forgiveness has nothing to do with the SGI and kids transitioning to Adult Irons, Chief.

 

@kcap is discussing the exact problem in clubs when transitioning.

 

13 year olds in Florida are playing 6500-7000 yd courses.  A 6500 yd course in Florida, and other flat portions of the country, are different than 6500 yards with elevation.  Especially in times of the year when fairways are soft because of the rain.  A 13 year old that has a carry of 220yds with a total of 245 then just has a total of 220 because there is no rollout.  Bring a PI to the table and you are caught using longer irons, hybrids, and woods into the green all day long.  Bring a Player's Distance Iron to the table and it is the scenario @kcap just described (not enough spin to stop the ball).  If you go a GI or SGI you will have technology in the Granpa Irons to not only hit the ball further than the Player's Distance Iron, but for the SGI or GI to Apex Higher with a better decent angle.  If you combine that with the right ball and the right shaft combo the GI and SGI are going to outperform that players iron.  Golf is about 1 thing and one thing only.  It is about figuring out how to get the ball to stop.  It doesn't matter what club you use, golf is about getting the ball to stop.  There are 3 ways to do it, Spin, Friction (ball rolling), and Height.  The SGI or GI gives that kid a chance to stop the ball sooner because he is hitting it higher.

 

As a famous coach once said "Continuously having an 8i in to every green you will never win a tournament."  Same thing goes when you are using a PI and continually have a 4i in.  That GI and SGI are giving the same kid an opportunity to go into holes with shorter clubs. 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by heavy_hitter