Flatten lie to counter the offset in an iron?

[00bolt]

I play Miura MC501 and I absolutely love these clubs. However my one and only complaint is the club has a bit of an offset. And I already hit a draw. And my bad shots with these irons is usually a draw that goes too far left.  I wouldn’t call it a hook. But often times it’ll be a perfect high draw shot that starts straight at target and never stops going left. The real bad ones could miss 15-20 yards. 
 

even my good shots don’t really start right and come back left. I hit it pretty straight and it just draws slightly left. So usually I just aim a little right.  But again the bad ones go too far left. 
 

so I got to thinking. Would flatten my lie angles theoretically start the ball out more right and help straighten out the shots?  If not. Is there anything that can be done to try and counter the offset in a club?  Seems this isn’t an issue in my wedges and woods.  And I really don’t want to get rid of these clubs. Just hoping there’s something I can do to minimize  this. 

[cavemeister]

I play 2* flat and it definitely makes a difference. It will help--also really working on not having a crazy strong grip...shafts matter too--not sure what you are using...

[00bolt]

Miura MC 501 with Oban 115 stiff shafts. Everything is standard. Length, lie, lofts etc. 

[hagimihale]

I'm sure others with far more experience will chime in.  But in theory yes, a flatter lie angle will help offset the lefts.  But I don't think its that simple:

 

1. For those of us (myself included) who play their irons a few degrees flat... the standard lie sometimes resulted in a closed face at impact (heel hits the ground before the toe, head rotates counterclockwise), leading to a shot that starts left of target but doesn't necessarily turn over.  If you hit an iron solid, feels like center face contact, but starts left - adjusting it flatter might help. But if the current lie setting is in fact correct for you, adjusting them flat could lead to you fighting a push instead (toe hits before heel, head rotates clockwise so that it is open at impact). I would check your lie angle via impact tape before making this change.

 

2. Since the MC501 has a bit of offset, and your default shot shape is a draw, the flight pattern might just be the combination of offset + your natural release.  As @cavemeister noted, you might want to adjust your grip a little weaker to counter the left miss inherent in the MC501 for you.

 

3. Also agree on shafts.  Have you gamed the Obans before? They might be either too soft or too light for you.   

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, 00bolt said:

I play Miura MC501 and I absolutely love these clubs. However my one and only complaint is the club has a bit of an offset. And I already hit a draw. And my bad shots with these irons is usually a draw that goes too far left.  I wouldn’t call it a hook. But often times it’ll be a perfect high draw shot that starts straight at target and never stops going left. The real bad ones could miss 15-20 yards. 
 

even my good shots don’t really start right and come back left. I hit it pretty straight and it just draws slightly left. So usually I just aim a little right.  But again the bad ones go too far left. 
 

so I got to thinking. Would flatten my lie angles theoretically start the ball out more right and help straighten out the shots?  If not. Is there anything that can be done to try and counter the offset in a club?  Seems this isn’t an issue in my wedges and woods.  And I really don’t want to get rid of these clubs. Just hoping there’s something I can do to minimize  this. 

 

Unlikely the lie angle would help you.  It just doesn't have that big of an effect on the ball flight results.  Maybe 2-3 yards difference laterally per degree it's adjusted.

 

The offset itself typically doesn't have that much of a direct effect either.  If you're seeing that big of a change in shot shape, the visual of the club with offset at address is likely effecting your setup and/or grip.   Lots of possibilities but a common one is it's causing you to set up with a stronger grip.  First just try weakening the grip a little to see if that helps.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Stuart_G

[rt_charger]

It's not going to help an awful lot. I'm one of those people who with extra offset, sometimes leaves the face open at address because a square face looks closed to me. 

 

I would only adjust lie if your stock, good shots start left of your intended start line (when face angle is good).

[Ben Berube]

7 minutes ago, rt_charger said:

It's not going to help an awful lot. I'm one of those people who with extra offset, sometimes leaves the face open at address because a square face looks closed to me. 

 

I would only adjust lie if your stock, good shots start left of your intended start line (when face angle is good).

All great answers and really spot on to help you OP. I mess with my grip every year and it can set you back weeks to months. But this is really a simple fix. 

Like mentioned above instead of the normal set up turn that club another 2-3* open and then get your normal grip. 

Jack played all of his irons open. This promotes a higher ball flight but for Jack it made sure of a cut. Effectively removing the left side.

Jack was a cut player so it just promoted more cut. For you it will level off that over-draw.

 I did this for years and it works great. You will get used to it quickly and won’t cause any issues. 

I messed with my grip again this season to finally fix my over-draws and now I am stuck in a cut and cannot escape!

you want to talk about ruining your golf game for the season. I can only play a couple times a month now with kids and I am now aiming left which is SO freaking strange to me and probably you would feel the same way. 

Everything is cutting and when I try to draw the ball its like a pull now haha. I am a mess. Low 80’s everywhere when it was low 70’s the last few years consistantly. So DON’’T change your grip!!! Lol

[North Butte]

Terrible idea. The mistake is you're trying to affect start direction of the shot by flattening the lie while assuming that too-flat lie will have no other effect. The effect of lie on your ability to strike the ball cleanly and squarely is far greater than its effect on initial direction. 

 

I can't understand why you'd say you love a set of clubs when they don't suit your swing and shot tendencies. Sounds to me like you're in love with the idea of these clubs (they're Miuras, they're visually great looking, etc) but you can't actually hit them well. That's a bummer but it is what it is. They have some offset and you don't get along well with offset.

 

I'm in love with the idea of a set of Titleist MB's just like Adam Scott plays. I wouldn't be able to break 100 with them though so they aren't for me. 

[Mookieb10]

I am completely on the other side of most people here. Miuras are a soft forging, easily bent... and.. easily bent back if it doesn’t work well. In fact, out of all the possible equipment related solutions (new clubs, bigger grips, stiffer shafts, etc.), it’s the easiest to do and easiest to switch back and lowest cost. If you have a bit of club head speed and can afford to loose a touch of distance, I would personally even bend the clubs a degree weak while I’m at it to press out a touch of offset. Start small, a degree weak and 1.5 degrees flat to start. See if it helps. Just my $.01

[BREWMASTER95060]

https://www.monarkgolf.com/golf-components/clubheads/golf-iron-heads/bang-golf-classic-ii-tourtools-iron-heads.html
buy 1 or more of these heads and make test clubs
 

• The non-offset hosel, thin sole and low profiled face are designed for golfers seeking maximum shot control and increased ability to work the ball.

Edited July 12, 2021 by BREWMASTER95060

[TLUBulldogGolf]

Offset does not make an iron go left. Fit the lie to what you need (dynamic test with sharpie or similar is ideal). 

Edited July 7, 2021 by TLUBulldogGolf

[cavemeister]

11 hours ago, hagimihale said:

As was pointed out to me. The ball is gone before the iron hits the ground. Therefore the theory of the ground turning the club one way or another is questionable. Bending the iron flat opens the club up. You hit the golfball with a descending swing... 

 

[cavemeister]

1 hour ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Offset does not make an iron go left. Fit the lie to what you need (dynamic test which sharpie or similar is ideal). 

Offset can indeed make a golf ball go left. Not for all golfers--but many. Pros have commented on this, Azinger said as much in his prime when he switched to Callaway irons,  which encourage high hooks. 

[Mookieb10]

7 hours ago, TLUBulldogGolf said:

Offset does not make an iron go left. Fit the lie to what you need (dynamic test which sharpie or similar is ideal). 

Then what is the purpose of offset... it’s beautiful appearance?

[dlygrisse]

2 minutes ago, Mookieb10 said:

Then what is the purpose of offset... it’s beautiful appearance?

Some people like the look

It moves the cog back, helps with getting the ball in the air.  Main engineering intent.  

It might have a minimal, very minimal effect on the lefts for some swings, but it's more of a visual issue with some people, probably causing them to point the face too far left at address.  

Psychological, both good and bad. .  

[dlygrisse]

6 hours ago, cavemeister said:

 

if the club is going toe down at the strike the face will be open to the intended line of flight, whether you have made impact to the ground or not.  if you compensate at address you may overcome it, but the dynamic effect will tend to cause open faced shots and possibly toe side contact.  You are correct lie board tests are mostly useless, but lie angle that are off often cause pushes and pulls.  This is especially true with higher lofted clubs.  Best to do a Sharpie test and watch ball flight, in fact ball flight should be the ultimate indicator.  if you hit the solid and your starting line is straight then I wouldn't mess with it no matter what the sole impact on the turf is doing.  

Edited July 6, 2021 by dlygrisse

[DArnie]

18 hours ago, 00bolt said:

Miura MC 501 with Oban 115 stiff shafts. Everything is standard. Length, lie, lofts etc. 

Here's what I would do but do as you want.

1. check the lies and lofts of two clubs-all if you like to make sure they are correct.

2. Take one iron and get it bent 1 degree flat and 1 weak. ex. 6 iron

3. Take another iron and do the same but at two degrees flat and weak. ex. 7 iron

Compare them and see if one suits you better. Easy to do and if you don't like them easily undone.

[LCP]

00bolt, I share the exact same shot tendancies as you but play high-offset irons in Ping G410's.  The lefts really start creeping in around 7 or 8 iron and can be bad with the high offset 5 and 6 irons.  I find that my biggest problem is with gripping the club in a straight position.  The higher the offset the more that moves that center of gravity back, further behind the face.  Therefore, when I try to grab the club in a naturally balanced position, the club rotates closed in order to be balanced, and that's how I grip it, even if I "make an adjustment" at address to square it, that adjustment is artificial at that moment, and will likely disappear once my actual swing begins, and voila, I've made a swing and contact with the ball with a closed club face, because that's how the club face wants to twist.  I hardly ever experience it with my driver, woods, or wedges.  And I experience it less with the lower offset Srixon U85 2 iron, than I do with the high offset Ping G410 irons.  I found hybrids often want to sit or twist closed just like high offset irons, so they're out of my bag.

 

As for the problem with going flat, it can introduce a right miss when all you're expecting is a left miss.  Because sometimes I do a counter-move or really get the grip/face angle right to hit it straight.  Then if I did something which causes the ball to go right, like hit down on it, move it back in my stance, etc. my ball starts and leaks right a little.  Sometimes that gets me in trouble if I am right at the edge of trouble on the right counting on a left shot.  But if my lie angles were too flat, that slight leak right is going to turn into more of push-fade to the right going much further right than it would have with the proper lie angle, giving a true two way miss.

[Stuart_G]

10 hours ago, dlygrisse said:

if the club is going toe down at the strike the face will be open to the intended line of flight, whether you have made impact to the ground or not.

 

If one wanted to get pedantic about it, it's not opening the face (like would happen if the club hit the ground first toe side) but rather it's a tilted d-plane instead.  The results will be somewhat similar but either way it's not even close enough to account for the 20 yard misses reported by the OP.   But yes, it's always worth testing and adjusting (link below for best way to test) - but very unlikely the root cause of the problems in this case.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Stuart_G

[North Butte]

All I know from my own experience is trying to play with irons a couple degrees too flat is just a miserable experience. Feels awful, any mishits in terms of low point are much amplified, hard to get the ball consistently going in the right direction. Eventually it will cause compensations just to try and force the club into a better position at impact. 

 

I just can't even conceive of deliberately bending irons so they are toe-down for any reason.

[mgoblue83]

21 hours ago, cavemeister said:

Offset can indeed make a golf ball go left. Not for all golfers--but many. Pros have commented on this, Azinger said as much in his prime when he switched to Callaway irons,  which encourage high hooks. 

 

Thank you.

 

In theory it shouldn't cause lefts but with my swing it always causes high hooks. The combination of visually looking like it's pointing left and the change in cog/weighting/feel just doesn't work to matter what club it is.

[dlygrisse]

4 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

If one wanted to get pedantic about it, it's not opening the face (like would happen if the club hit the ground first toe side) but rather it's a tilted d-plane instead.  The results will be somewhat similar but either way it's not even close enough to account for the 20 yard misses reported by the OP.   But yes, it's always worth testing and adjusting (link below for best way to test) - but very unlikely the root cause of the problems in this case.

 

 

Right, the D-Plane and all that stuff....I get it, I maybe didn't explain it in the correct scientific terms, but basic common sense terms......???  I have a bit of an understanding of how all that stuff works on Trackman etc. but I wouldn't call myself an expert.  I DO KNOW that from personal experience lie angle is very important to my iron play and that it does have an influence on the starting line of my shots...or D-Plane tilts etc.  

[Stuart_G]

47 minutes ago, dlygrisse said:

I DO KNOW that from personal experience lie angle is very important to my iron play and that it does have an influence on the starting line of my shots...or D-Plane tilts etc.  

 

yes it can.  Which is why it never hurts to check it with the white board marker test.  

 

But it can effect some more than others.  Typically it seems to have more of an effect on the ones who (intentionally or inadvertently) allow the lie angle of the club to effect their setup and address posture/positioning.  Ideally it shouldn't since lie angle is based on impact, not setup - but it's not uncommon.   But also that's about setting the correct lie angle and consequences of it being off - very different from trying to use the lie angle to correct some other problem (as the OP seems to be suggesting).

Edited July 7, 2021 by Stuart_G

[LCP]

OK. So I've pretty much decided to buy new irons.  This is a picture of the "natural position" of the face on two game improvement 5 irons -- the "low offset" Mizuno JPX 921 Pro and the "high offset" Ping G425.  I set both of these clubs aligned with the lines in the carpet, and then lifted the club slightly so the club was no longer completely flat soled, so that the weight balance could rotate the club to its natural position.  The result is the high offset Ping G425 closed drastically, some 7-10 degrees would be my guess, and the low offset Mizuno JPX921 Pro only closed 1-3 degrees.  Playing the predecessor G410's, I experience this rotate closed grip at address "feature" all the time, and hit pull hooks all the time.  I hit my lower offset Srixon U85 2-iron straighter than my G410 5 iron, despite the G410 supposedly being a more forgiving club.  Maybe so, but only if you can keep the face square -- good luck, because it's sure not designed to be square naturally.  I suggest it's time to change clubs.  I'll probably be ordering the JPX921 Pro.  The Ping G series used to have a real advantage in forgiveness over other brands, but that's not as much the case anymore.  Unfortunately, I'm tall at 6'5" and grown accustomed to irons 1.5-2" long.  Ping accommodates swing weight the best there.  Mizuno is the only other one to come close.

[Thayneil]

On 7/7/2021 at 6:02 PM, North Butte said:

All I know from my own experience is trying to play with irons a couple degrees too flat is just a miserable experience. Feels awful, any mishits in terms of low point are much amplified, hard to get the ball consistently going in the right direction. Eventually it will cause compensations just to try and force the club into a better position at impact. 

 

I just can't even conceive of deliberately bending irons so they are toe-down for any reason.

Ian the owner of TXG and a scratch player plays 2 flat from what would be his normal lie to eliminate the lefts.

 

[BREWMASTER95060]

John @ ABS 
talked about removing offset using 2 bending bars at the same time on the ABS forum http://www.advancedballstriking.com/forum/ (site is REALLY slow)

This guy below has uses 1 or 2 bending bars.
I HAVE NEVER DONE THIS AND I NEVER WILL.
But it is interesting but NOT posting this to stir up trouble.
 

http://eurogolfer.blogspot.com/2011/01/removing-offset.html

[Stuart_G]

6 hours ago, LCP said:

 I set both of these clubs aligned with the lines in the carpet, and then lifted the club slightly so the club was no longer completely flat soled, so that the weight balance could rotate the club to its natural position.  

 

Why would you do that?  The naturally soled position in irons is meaningless.   It's way too unstable to be useful or dependable for any reason.   No irons are designed to to sit naturally square.  If it happens it's purely coincidence.   For those who try to use it at setup, it will eventually get them into trouble.  Irons should be fit based on the impact position and posture, not based on the setup position and posture.

 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Stuart_G

[North Butte]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Why would you do that?  The naturally soled position in irons is meaningless.   It's way too unstable to be useful or dependable for any reason.   No irons are designed to to sit naturally square.  If it happens it's purely coincidence.   For those who try to use it at setup, it will eventually get them into trouble.  Irons should be fit based on the impact position and posture, not based on the setup position and posture.

 

 

 

I would say the same thing about drivers. Whatever position they are designed to orient when soled on a perfectly flat surface doesn't matter if you set one down on an unlevel, irregular grass tee box. Especially so on some of the tee boxes I play on. 

[Stuart_G]

57 minutes ago, North Butte said:

I would say the same thing about drivers. Whatever position they are designed to orient when soled on a perfectly flat surface doesn't matter if you set one down on an unlevel, irregular grass tee box. Especially so on some of the tee boxes I play on. 

 

But driver's and woods are a lot more stable in their naturally soled position.   No one really relies 100% on that naturally soled position, it just gives a starting place for the setup process for those that use it.  It's the same way trying to point the face at the target gives a starting place for those that use that method.  But in both cases, consistent ball flight results still depends on the players ability to create a consistent visual at address as to where the face is pointing.   What direction that happens to be doesn't change the players ability to get an accurate and consistent setup.

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Stuart_G

[MountainKing]

I would figure out what in the swing is causing the issue and work on that.  Adjusting the lie into something that might not fit your swing could cause bigger issues.